Leo Gura

@NTOgen It is about enlightenment -- and other things -- but my point is that you guys have already failed the openmindedness test. Whether it is about enlightenment. Or other areas of spirituality. It shouldn't matter. If you're not curious about life, then don't bother reading it.

Well, if you actually read the book, you'd see it was about enlightenment. But that would again require openmindedness, tolerance, and curiosity, all of which seem lacking in this thread. You're committing the classic epistemic error of thinking you know before you've done the research. If research worked that way, we wouldn't need to research, because we'd already know everything. Research is done out of humility: an assumption is required that it might lead to something you haven't imagined.

And that is my personal choice as to how to guide people on this path. Every teacher is forced to make a choice. There is no way to teach nonduality without making a stylistic choice. If you stay openminded, you may discover my choice has hidden merits beyond what you presently can envision.

I don't want this thread to devolve into a debate about how best to achieve enlightenment. You can discuss that separately elsewhere. I will just again point out to you guys a very common-sense point: THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOUR DESIRE TO BECOME ENLIGHTENED. It's quite silly to interrupt every topic of discussion unrelated to enlightenment with the objection: "But why talk about this if it isn't about enlightenment?" Guess, what? We're allowed to discuss stuff outside of enlightenment. I can't believe I even have to argue this point.

That is false. In fact, it's dangerous. Just because you choose to do that way, doesn't mean everyone else does. Those are your values at work. By your logic, the only way to become enlightened is to lock yourself in a cave and do nothing but contemplate. And that's just factually false. You can become enlightened while being artist, or running a business, or writing a book, or making music, or training to become an astrophysicist.

Again, you're looking at everything through a single narrow lens: If it doesn't make you enlightened, it's pointless. But everything is pointless. Including enlightenment. So what? Not everything I talk about is mono-maniacally focused on enlightenment. I'm also interested in living life, as you say.

@Snick Enlightenment is quite easy to quantify. Either you are conscious of what your are, or you're not. This silly teaching that we're all already enlightened is just a word-game. No, we're not all already enlightened. To be enlightened means you REALIZE it. Of course nothing existential changes about you. You've always been exactly what you are. But enlightenment doesn't mean existential change. It means a change in perspective, a realization. This change in perspective either did or did not occur. It's a factual matter. I've had this change in perspective -- but like for many people -- it didn't "sick". Which simply means more work is required. No big deal.

I never said it would. Notice how you frame things in terms of "If it ain't gonna enlighten you, it doesn't matter". That's a very narrow view. Tying your shoelaces doesn't enlighten you either, yet you still do it.

@jse How easily one could use that very excuse against all nonduality teachings. That's the chief reason why the world is 99% unenlightened.

Well of course! After a breakthrough dose of 5-meo, you'll be open to pretty much anything ;D

@jse How quickly you judge without exploring deeper.

There would be the perfect place to apply radical openmindedness

That's almost certainly false in my view. I've met healers (both enlightened and non-enlightened) personally who've spoken of their successes, I've had healers work on me, and if you spend even a bit of time doing research into various mystical traditions and alternative healing modalities, you'll see they don't make sense unless you allow for healing to be real. Just one of the cool perks of mastering nonduality

@str4 Well, it is important to distinguish between direct experience (your kitchen table) and hearsay (a book). The interesting thing is that hearsay can be very valuable (but also very dangerous). For without hearsay, would you have learned of enlightenment? Walking that tightrope between direct experience and hearsay is something VERY FEW people in the world can do well. And my hunch is, if you were able to train yourself to walk it, you'd discover things no other human being has discovered. And your life would be enriched beyond measure.

@Donald I would say it's even more radical and more challenging. I hear ya. Not easy material. Requires a very good mind to handle it correctly. And also probably some direct consciousness of reality before you are open enough. 2 years ago, I would not have been able to handle it.

@Motus The questioner may be resolved, but there is much yet to become directly conscious of

Ooo! Good thread topic. Let's hear 'em.

@Deep "Just your awareness expanding" is a rather mild way of putting it. More like: Infinity descended upon me like a giant hungry motherfucking pterodactyl.

@Motus I never said to presume anything. I'm merely suggesting you keep an open mind and question deeper in the nature of things. Who knows what you might find.

And those "7 factors of blossoming" happen whenever they happen Also I'd be more cautious of turning desire into an enemy. Some nondual schools, like Shaiva Tantra, like to leverage desire rather than rejecting it. Desire is a good thing. Even "wrong" desire. It's all grist for the mill of consciousness. You might find that the path of "rejecting wrong desire" takes longer to bear fruit than the path of "just let desire do its thing while staying mindful". Or not.

@cetus56 For me it sometimes feels more like a hollow hologram.

By that definition, Disneyland is exactly the state of consciousness you presently find yourself in You haven't just been there, you ARE Disneyland every day Wakey-wakey

@Motus Yes, that's WHO you are. But now you gotta experience WHAT you are! Much harder. WHAT is awareness? WHAT is the I AM? Go from Atman to Brahman.

@BeginnerActualizer Be kind as opposed to being a prick You're over-complicating it. The difference between acting out of selfish interest and altruistic interest is just obvious. You feel a contraction whenever you act out of self-interest at the expense of others. You know when you're taking too much pie for yourself. Imagine how you would act if you believed that every other sentient being was literally, physically you? You would exhibit great care, and tread lightly. That would be the Jain ideal.

I've experienced what I would call "minor" infinity or Holy Spirit or Atman during a meditation retreat. Absolute Infinity I think is what they call Brahman, and that is so much deeper than Atman that it's like a million times deeper. And that I've only experienced that on 5-meo. To me it seems unimaginable to experience it through human means alone, but clearly people have done it. I must admit I'm not a very good meditator or contemplator. My mind isn't built for high creativity, not one-pointed focus. And I suspect that there is a much deeper version of it yet to discover. But just getting a 10 second glimpse of Brahman is enough to change your entire life forever. Your realize in an instant that all of life and physical reality is just a dream.