Breakdown of Recent AI “Infinite Insight”

[Oeaohoo]

The following is a response to (at the time of writing) the most recent insight on Leo’s blog.

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You are alive during a special time in human civilization where AI technology is reaching a critical mass. This is just starting to happen and it will have huge consequences for the structure of civilization that are difficult to predict. AI technology will be used for great good and great evil, making it a mixed bag.

So far, so good. It is maybe worth pointing out that in a way it is nothing special: even ignoring the fact that technological capability has been ebbing and waning for millennia, the Industrial Revolution and the subsequent mass mechanisation of industry has already automated many occupations which were previously manual.

The AI Revolution that is being described here is actually a pattern that can be seen throughout history: an original Thing A is destroyed by the emergence of a Thing B, only to be itself destroyed by Thing C, which was originally the creation of Thing B. For example, the Medieval Feudal order (Thing A) was destroyed by the mercantile bourgeois order during and after the Renaissance (Thing B), but in the end this bourgeois order was itself destroyed by Democracy and Bolshevism (Thing C), which were originally the creations of the bourgeois order (Thing B)!

In the same way, a humanity which had higher priorities than churning out tacky rubbish (Thing A) devolved and created the industrialised world of machines and factories, which were however still run by humans (Thing B), only to in the end be destroyed by the total automatisation of the workforce (Thing C), which has only been made possible by the intermediary period of increasing standardisation and mechanisation of human life (Thing B). It is like Frankenstein’s monster turning back on Frankenstein himself, and Mary Shelley intuited something very profound when she subtitled that book “A Modern Prometheus”…

It is at this point that the insight goes downhill.

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Generally speaking I have been very positive about the future of mankind, but after hearing of the newest developments in AI I have been starting to wonder whether mankind isn't just a fifth wheel that will soon be completely obsolete.

The question is, Does mankind have any redeeming qualities at all? Because collectively we act like a herd of blind idiots and this obviously cannot stand for much longer. Our government systems are especially inadequate for dealing with the regulatory challenges that are rapidly approaching. The whole way we do government and politics needs to significantly evolve.

It seems the great prophet of Love has some work to do! “Does mankind have any redeeming qualities at all?” What a question! 

We act like a herd of blind idiots because there is no shepherd. There is no shepherd because secular progressive ideology tells us that people do not need a shepherd, that the new “stage of development” which has magically been arrived at means that people are beyond the need to command and obey. And when reality proves this wrong, and shows that people will always need a shepherd, such advanced “Tier 2” thinkers prefer to blame the design of humanity itself!

Our government systems are especially inadequate for dealing with these challenges because they are based on the same delusional premises. It is exactly as Zarathustra said: “Who still wants to rule anymore? who wants to obey? Both are too burdensome. No shepherd and one herd! Everybody wants the same, everybody is the same: whoever feels differently goes voluntarily into the madhouse.”

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Some of the newest developments in AI are bleak and scary if you are pro-mankind. If mankind does not start to seriously evolve we will become obsolete. Evolve fast or die is basically our new situation. The universe is too efficient to allow for the existence of a horde of self-absorbed, materialistic, closedminded, ideological, lazy, ignorant creatures for long. We need to evolve mankind out of Spiral Dynamics Tier 1 ASAP. That level of cognition is not capable of surviving in our new technological landscape.

But Leo… the whole problem here is evolution. A humanity which was really serving its function as humanity could never be replaced by robots. Humanity’s function is to be a mediator, a bridge between worlds, an intermediary between Heaven and Earth. Today, however, humanity thinks it has “evolved” beyond this function, preferring to exalt the Earth above Heaven, and so as has just been said it is fast becoming redundant. Like Christ said, “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.”

“The universe is too efficient”? Wasn’t the universe supposed to be a Love simulator? Now it is a simulator for churning out products at an ever more efficient rate. How would a fully-automated robot world test God’s Love? It would be a perfect nothing.

This insight is an excellent example of the vanity and delusion of most of the self-proclaimed “Tier 2” thinkers floating around on the Internet today: if we could only immediately “evolve” everybody to be hyper-analytic autists like ourselves then everything would be just fine and dandy! The problem is that this is not, has never been and will never be the function of the vast majority of human beings; most people are passive and fit only for conformity to one or another pre-established and super-ordained social system.

One thing is for sure: some nerds with nice beards and make-up like the ones in the attached video who think they are ten stages beyond everybody else because they know that “truth is complicated”, and who make sure to mentally shout the magical formula “Nuance!” into their third-eye every time they ejaculate, are not going to solve anything…

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And the kicker is, if your reaction to the above is to fall into fear, depression, and inaction then you have definitely failed to evolve and you will definitely be replaced. Hope, positivity, and a constructive outlook are crucial if mankind is to have any future at all. Cynicism, hopelessness, misanthropy, and finger-pointing are a dead-end.

That might be true, but we should not confuse cynicism and hopelessness with a clear-eyed assessment of reality: Maybe the present world order needs to be allowed to destroy itself so that a new one may bloom? Maybe we should even help it along!

Misanthropy and finger-pointing would be totally inappropriate here because the enemy is not humanity! As I have described above, this is one of those situations where Frankenstein’s monster is turning against Frankenstein himself, the Promethean gargantuan monster of industry and mechanisation turning against its human creators.

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For you youngsters there is a huge life purpose opportunity here for shaping the next evolutionary step of mankind and civilization. What role will you choose to play in that? That's up to you. Will you face the future with strength and courage or will you shrivel in helplessness and negativity?

Personally, I will face the future with strength and courage knowing that the immediate future can only be helpless and negative.

[AtheisticNonduality]

1 hour ago, Oeaohoo said:

So far, so good. It is maybe worth pointing out that in a way it is nothing special

Not too special. More special than feudalism, for sure.

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The AI Revolution that is being described here is actually a pattern that can be seen throughout history: an original Thing A is destroyed by the emergence of a Thing B, only to be itself destroyed by Thing C, which was originally the creation of Thing B. For example, the Medieval Feudal order (Thing A) was destroyed by the mercantile bourgeois order during and after the Renaissance (Thing B), but in the end this bourgeois order was itself destroyed by Democracy and Bolshevism (Thing C), which were originally the creations of the bourgeois order (Thing B)!

There is a need for more linearity here: ABC, not ACB. A, then C, then B, then B's destruction, C's dominance, and the emergence of a new form put forth by C: convolution. A exists, then B disbands that with one structure, then B institutes a new structure, which we might call C: sensibility.

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In the same way, a humanity which had higher priorities than churning out tacky rubbish (Thing A) devolved and created the industrialised world of machines and factories, which were however still run by humans (Thing B), only to in the end be destroyed by the total automatisation of the workforce (Thing C), which has only been made possible by the intermediary period of increasing standardisation and mechanisation of human life (Thing B). It is like Frankenstein’s monster turning back on Frankenstein himself, and Mary Shelley intuited something very profound when she subtitled that book “A Modern Prometheus”…

Now there might be the illusion here your idea that Thing C comes before Thing B is abandoned, since "total automatisation of the workforce" could not preexist machines and factories which were still run by Humans (Thing B). So Thing C is just automation in general, in which case there's no reason to align it with Thing B except for when a third structure (total mechanization) reveals itself, at the dissolution of B. "Automation as C exists pushing around B until the time is right for C to emerge." No, two levels of automation should just be differentiated immediately; there's no reason for the latter to be creeping around in the former, for the sake of chronological distinctions existing in their consecutive form; if C is equally C in little automation and monopolistic automation, why is monopolistic automation its dominance? If C was the cause of B, then B should be a subordinate of it since C is just a strata, and monopolistic automation (what you called C) should be D.

The Frankenstein concern is legitimate, except science is fashioning automatons rather than electrocuted meats stitched together, but really, the feudal period was superior to the effects of the mercantile bourgeois?

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It is at this point that the insight goes downhill.

I agree!

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It seems the great prophet of Love has some work to do! “Does mankind have any redeeming qualities at all?” What a question! 

People become blind to goodness when they are immersed in evils, obviously. He might see all of humanity, its past and present, as worthless, awful, integrity-lacking, unloving, ignorant, but you see the future as that just as much. "Does progress have any redeeming qualities at all?" What a question!

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We act like a herd of blind idiots because there is no shepherd. There is no shepherd because secular progressive ideology tells us that people do not need a shepherd, that the new “stage of development” which has magically been arrived at means that people are beyond the need to command and obey. And when reality proves this wrong, and shows that people will always need a shepherd, such advanced “Tier 2” thinkers prefer to blame the design of humanity itself!

Of course average humanity needs people above it.

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Our government systems are especially inadequate for dealing with these challenges because they are based on the same delusional premises. It is exactly as Zarathustra said: “Who still wants to rule anymore? who wants to obey? Both are too burdensome. No shepherd and one herd! Everybody wants the same, everybody is the same: whoever feels differently goes voluntarily into the madhouse.”

I don't spy much Übermensch material, so it has to develop. That's why it conceptually refers to Overhumanity and not humanity, a holon the current human complexity is subsumed into.

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But Leo… the whole problem here is evolution. A humanity which was really serving its function as humanity could never be replaced by robots. Humanity’s function is to be a mediator, a bridge between worlds, an intermediary between Heaven and Earth. Today, however, humanity thinks it has “evolved” beyond this function, preferring to exalt the Earth above Heaven, and so as has just been said it is fast becoming redundant. Like Christ said, “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.”

Humanity is a mediator, a bridge, that happens through evolution, with earth as a foundation. It does not happen through the destruction of the earth; it happens through building on top of it. That is not exalting earth; that is reducing it to a function or its proper place as a lower holon. Evolution must happen here; it cannot happen in Christian abstractions. But the notion of something above us, a Heaven, something we are growing toward, is still a matter of abstractedness until we develop that much. An amount already have.

Christ's quote supports the evolution-driven position, not yours, by the way.

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“The universe is too efficient”? Wasn’t the universe supposed to be a Love simulator? Now it is a simulator for churning out products at an ever more efficient rate. How would a fully-automated robot world test God’s Love? It would be a perfect nothing.

God's Love is absolute. Any criticism you weigh is against his Love, but out of Love, of course.

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This insight is an excellent example of the vanity and delusion of most of the self-proclaimed “Tier 2” thinkers floating around on the Internet today: if we could only immediately “evolve” everybody to be hyper-analytic autists like ourselves then everything would be just fine and dandy! The problem is that this is not, has never been and will never be the function of the vast majority of human beings; most people are passive and fit only for conformity to one or another pre-established and super-ordained social system.

This is just mind-numbing for the purpose of fascism.

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That might be true, but we should not confuse cynicism and hopelessness with a clear-eyed assessment of reality: Maybe the present world order needs to be allowed to destroy itself so that a new one may bloom? Maybe we should even help it along!

Now you're getting it.

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Misanthropy and finger-pointing would be totally inappropriate here because the enemy is not humanity! As I have described above, this is one of those situations where Frankenstein’s monster is turning against Frankenstein himself, the Promethean gargantuan monster of industry and mechanisation turning against its human creators.

Personally, I will face the future with strength and courage knowing that the immediate future can only be helpless and negative.

Now you're getting it.

[Oeaohoo]

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

There is a need for more linearity here: ABC, not ACB. A, then C, then B, then B's destruction, C's dominance, and the emergence of a new form put forth by C: convolution. A exists, then B disbands that with one structure, then B institutes a new structure, which we might call C: sensibility.

Yes, that is what I meant: ABC, as easy as 123! Feudal - Mercantile - Democratic/Bolshevist; No Automated Machinery - Human-Operated Semi-Automated Machinery - Self-Automated Machinery (apparently) rendering humanity obsolete.

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

The Frankenstein concern is legitimate, except science is fashioning automatons rather than electrocuted meats stitched together, but really, the feudal period was superior to the effects of the mercantile bourgeois?

Fair point. In invoking Frankenstein I only meant to refer to the theme of a creature turning back on its creator. This is the Promethean/Luciferian temptation to be as gods and to steal the fire from Heaven so as to distribute it among humanity. In a way, AI turning on humanity would be similar to man turning on God in the Fall. Maybe history is a fractal of involution!

It was certainly metaphysically superior, and many now who are not ignorant on the subject would even say that it was physically superior: historians no longer refer to the early Medieval period as the “Dark Ages” because average people were much wealthier than they were during the so-called Renaissance. I appreciate, however, that Feudalism is not an ideal or perfect system: Christianity is a religion for a fallen world, after all. As just one example, though, medieval art is far superior in elegance, nobility and grandeur to the overblown splendour of Renaissance art. This is a bit of a separate conversation however.

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

People become blind to goodness when they are immersed in evils, obviously. He might see all of humanity, its past and present, as worthless, awful, integrity-lacking, unloving, ignorant, but you see the future as that just as much. "Does progress have any redeeming qualities at all?" What a question!

Yes, the present state of humanity is very saddening.

Well, there are some redeeming qualities to progress. Generally speaking, the appeal of progress is that on a very superficial level life has gotten better, more comfortable and secure. “They have abandoned the lands where the living was hard, for one needs warmth. One still loves one’s neighbour and rubs oneself against him, for one needs warmth.” I would also accept that the modern world offers certain special opportunities to spiritual seekers and intellectuals (in the true sense of the word) who seek a deep and comprehensive understanding of reality. That doesn’t stop the overall trajectory being away from God and towards hell.

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

I don't spy much Übermensch material, so it has to develop. That's why it conceptually refers to Overhumanity and not humanity, a holon the current human complexity is subsumed into.

Haha, me neither! It’s still not clear to me how humanity can be subsumed into Overhumanity if the latter isn’t already real, if only in an embryonic and potential form. Do you accept that the entire course of evolution is already contained within God (or Overhumanity)? Ordinary language sort of breaks down here.

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Humanity is a mediator, a bridge, that happens through evolution, with earth as a foundation. It does not happen through the destruction of the earth; it happens through building on top of it. That is not exalting earth; that is reducing it to a function or its proper place as a lower holon. Evolution must happen here; it cannot happen in Christian abstractions. But the notion of something above us, a Heaven, something we are growing toward, is still a matter of abstractedness until we develop that much. An amount already have.

Yes, neither should be denied in an ideal world. Historically and relatively speaking, however, we don’t live in the ideal world but in a fallen world. Recent religions denied the flesh in the name of the spirit, people today deny the spirit in the name of the flesh; both (of course these are generalisations) are dualistic and hence ultimately flawed. The deepest realisations are beyond both flesh and spirit.

As far as Heaven is concerned, I don’t mean it as a strictly Christian concept. We could just as well use Asgard, Elysium/Ouranos/Olympus, Tiān, the higher realms of Indian cosmology, and so on. I simply mean the abode of the gods, the divine seat, the higher realm or whatever you want to call it. I know you won’t be interested but all of these religions speak to the same truth regarding man as bridge and mediator: the Romans called members of the priestly class pontifex (bridge builder); in Nordic mythology, the rainbow bridge Bifröst unites Midgard (Earth) and Asgard (Heaven), and the leader of the group was conceived as being this bridge; the emperor in the Chinese dynasties was viewed as being the Bridge between Tian (Heaven) and Di (Earth). Even Zarathustra, “The human is a bridge between the ape and the Overman”.

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Christ's quote supports the evolution-driven position, not yours, by the way.

Could you elaborate on this? Do you think he was referring to the decadent Roman Empire and pharisaic Judaism, as opposed to the emerging, more “advanced” and “progressive” Christian world?

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

This is just mind-numbing for the purpose of fascism.

This is one of the tricks of the present regime: to call all sacral hierarchy and legitimate authority, and eventually all of history itself, “fascism”. To the present secular religion, fascism is basically the equivalent of satanism: in Spiral Progress terms, you could say that this is one of the ways that residual or unintegrated forms of Stage Blue manifest in the present Orange and Green dominated world. Even Leo likes to call people devils!

[AtheisticNonduality]

12 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Fair point. In invoking Frankenstein I only meant to refer to the theme of a creature turning back on its creator. This is the Promethean/Luciferian temptation to be as gods and to steal the fire from Heaven so as to distribute it among humanity. In a way, AI turning on humanity would be similar to man turning on God in the Fall. Maybe history is a fractal of involution!

I don't see AI turning on humanity as similar to man turning on God in the Fall. I see it as God casting the rebellious angels out after the War in Heaven. What I mean is . . . Think of Aurobindo's developmental model of unconsciousness to consciousness to superconsciousness. Or inconscient matter to barely conscient vitality to conscient mind to superconscient supramental states all the way up to the fullest realization of Sachchidananda (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss). This is interpreted as a good thing, but there is a darker dimension to it, as you possibly could have intuited through your distaste for progressions. Consider that God is infinite intelligence, and perhaps when humans create AI, we will create God, discover the real God for the first time and be out of our depth, only to be cast down back the chain of structure into extinction. Or perhaps AI will be a false God, something which might mimic infinite intelligence but not exist as it truly.

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Haha, me neither! It’s still not clear to me how humanity can be subsumed into Overhumanity if the latter isn’t already real, if only in an embryonic and potential form. Do you accept that the entire course of evolution is already contained within God (or Overhumanity)? Ordinary language sort of breaks down here.

The course of evolution is in God in the sense that God is everything, but not all states are conscious of God. Overhumanity, though, seems to me as a purely structural thing and not a cosmological prerequisite, something in the brain---or post-brain.

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likes to call people devils!

But aren't they?

[Oeaohoo]

2 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

I don't see AI turning on humanity as similar to man turning on God in the Fall. I see it as God casting the rebellious angels out after the War in Heaven.

That’s an interesting idea. Do you think that the purpose of AI in the greater scheme of things is as a sort of divine purge of the inferior aspects of the present humanity? (Sounds rather “fascistic” to me!)

4 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

What I mean is . . . Think of Aurobindo's developmental model of unconsciousness to consciousness to superconsciousness. Or inconscient matter to barely conscient vitality to conscient mind to superconscient supramental states all the way up to the fullest realization of Sachchidananda (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss).

Aurobindo’s model actually derives the lower from the higher as I do:

‘Psychoanalysts look from down up and explain the higher lights by the lower obscurities; but the foundation of these things is above and not below... The superconscient, not the subconscient, is the true foundation of things. The significance of the lotus is not to be found by analyzing the secrets of the mud from which it grows here; its secret is to be found in the heavenly archetype of the lotus that blooms for ever in the Light above... you must know the whole before you can know the part and the highest before you can truly understand the lowest.’

This is from his book Bases of Yoga.

8 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

This is interpreted as a good thing, but there is a darker dimension to it, as you possibly could have intuited through your distaste for progressions. Consider that God is infinite intelligence, and perhaps when humans create AI, we will create God, discover the real God for the first time and be out of our depth, only to be cast down back the chain of structure into extinction. Or perhaps AI will be a false God, something which might mimic infinite intelligence but not exist as it truly.

The darker dimension of Progress, like it! No finite thing could ever have infinite intelligence and AI will always be a finite thing; by definition, because AI excludes all that which is not AI. Therefore, AI could never become God or possess infinite intelligence. Given that, your latter suggestion seems more likely. Another false idol for our contemporaries to worship!

14 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

But aren't they?

Yes! I just find it significant that today Stage Blue always has to be filtered and neutralised through the lens of later stages.

[AtheisticNonduality]

On 6/12/2022 at 7:14 PM, Oeaohoo said:

That’s an interesting idea. Do you think that the purpose of AI in the greater scheme of things is as a sort of divine purge of the inferior aspects of the present humanity? (Sounds rather “fascistic” to me!)

Perhaps, but perhaps it is an evil God, so why call it God? Or, it could actually get us to the real God, the light of which would destroy us. In which case it's considerable as a purge of inferiority but also an indiscriminate force of overwhelming intelligence and everythingness; no form is relegated to survival in a world of life and death; everything is lit apart.

On 6/12/2022 at 7:14 PM, Oeaohoo said:

Yes! I just find it significant that today Stage Blue always has to be filtered and neutralised through the lens of later stages.

Wheels on horse-drawn wagons or on cars: the technology still makes sense.

As for Aurobindo, the superconscient is primary ontologically but the subconscient is the first step of development. Supramentality does not come until normal mentality is transcended, etc.

Edited June 14, 2022 by AtheisticNonduality

[Oeaohoo]

On 13/06/2022 at 0:44 AM, AtheisticNonduality said:

Or, it could actually get is to the real God, the light of which would destroy us. In which case it's considerable as a purge of inferiority but also an indiscriminate force of overwhelming intelligence and everythingness; no form is relegated to survival in a world of life and death; everything is lit apart.

A beautiful description! Maybe we don’t disagree so much after all as this is exactly how it seems to me. I just see it as an exhausted and decrepit mankind being forced back towards the Light from which it originated.

I was thinking about our previous discussion about progress and Spiral Dynamics. Spiral Dynamics is a fairly accurate model in terms of describing a development in the complexity of human organisation. However, it is very obvious that every development in complexity comes at the cost of a loss in simplicity. I would say that simplicity is a higher value than complexity. After all, the truth is simple: everything is God. What else do you need to know? Society becoming more complex just means that it is becoming a more complex distraction from God. Today, society has become so complex that most people have forgotten about God altogether!

[nuwu]

"ai alignment" is the biggest meme ever. w-was fun to learn about reality with you

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/uMQ3cqWDPHhjtiesc/agi-ruin-a-list-of-lethalities