My Ideas on Principles

[IJB063]

Currently writing this thread, wanted to post this separate so that thread doesn’t get derailed

"I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, not to hate them, but to understand them." - Baruch Spinoza

You have to have principles that guide your actions, you don't ever fully ignore them and go completely Machiavelli and simply go for the most expedient effective solution . You need to solve the problem first and then apply your principles second.

You’re still making a principled decision but your making the lease shitty choice.

Often when trying to solve very complicated human problems there are no easy or perfect solutions, as Machiavelli points out that very often the good principled people lose throughout human history to evil people because they put their principles first and the solution second instead of vice versa. Simply because those who aren't decent don't have to compromise principles, they are willing to do what others are not and that's why they rise to positions of power. So to put it simply there are no good solutions for important issues directly effected humanity, there are bad solutions and there are worse solutions.

What most people do because of their ideologies and principles (there values like freedom) is they take everything off the table that violates their principles and they are as a result left with no solutions. This is why ideologies fail, this is why Communism can't succeed etc... Because they are only left with half measures and token gestures that waste energy, money and don't solve anything.

There's no point in doing anything if you don't solve the problem, solutions come first and they are guided by your principles, you need to be a able to bend and compromise your principles in order to achieve your goals and implement a solution to a problem. Otherwise you lose and others who don't care for your principles and ethics win. If your not willing to solve the problem don't bother. You need to be comfortable and come to terms with the fact that what ever you do, its going to be shitty. Most people use their principles like safety blankets because they're afraid and in cable of doing what is necessary to actually make the world a better place. If the problem was easy to solve it would have been solved a long time ago. The fact that it hasn't been solved is because its going to be difficult, its going to be hard and its going to be shitty, hence the cancer patient analogy, but you have to do what is optimal for a functioning world and for your principle, you have to solve the problem first, there are no perfect answers.

So solution first and principles second.

Machiavelli’s Advice For Nice Guys

Tried reading Machiavelli’s Prince but that shit was boring as fuck, and he kept talking about shit that was happening at that time like, the city state of Florence was raided by Prince fuck face blah blah, if you’re interested in Machiavelli just read what people have said about him unless your masochistic.

Anyway my main point was this, do whatever you have to do to get what you want. If you don’t do what you have to do, it’s only because you’re afraid or find the solution distasteful, but that’s no excuse to not do what needs to be done to win, sometimes throats need to be cut, if I’m wrong how?

 

 

[Preety_India]

 

You will need to give a proper example of what you consider a complex human problem and the solution to that problem. 

Otherwise the whole context of this thread is pretty vague. 

Whats exactly do you mean. 

 

Are you trying to suggest that solutions to an issue are Justified even if they are unethical. At least this is what I'm drawing after reading the post over and over. 

I still get the feeling that either you're too afraid to openly say what you want to say or you're simply beating around the bush because the idea is still in formative stages in your mind 

In either case if you want the discussion to be stimulated in a full fledged manner, you will need to be very clear and direct about what you are exactly trying to imply. Maybe multiple examples of problems and solutions that appear right to you will be very helpful to this discussion. 

This is a political topic. I read the other thread entirely. Even there it's a bit vague. 

Political debates are very cut and dry. If you are invited to a political debate, you can't expect to talk in circles or metaphorical poetic language, you are not writing a novel here, so you will have to get down to the dirty part, the direct part, the honest part, the brutal part, otherwise all the words you write are just words on the screen.. 

 

[IJB063]

Just now, Preety_India said:

Are you trying to suggest that solutions to an issue are Justified even if they are unethical

No, the solution make the actions ethical

Thats the concept behind consequentialism, consequentialism holds that the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for any judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct.

2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

still get the feeling that either you're too afraid to openly say what you want to say or you're simply beating around the bush because the idea is still in formative stages in your mind 

You’re right, what I’m saying is we need to round up all these unruly minority, ship em on trains to rural camps and at these camps we’ll all have a fun time and hold hands round a campfire and sing kumbay and John Lennons imagine, and then the sun will part from the clouds, birds will chirp, kids will go outside unveil their kites and play and the world will find peace

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

very clear and direct about what you are exactly trying to imply

No in seriousness I’m not implying anything, I just posted this because of Leo’s video on libertarianism, and the point he was making about absolute goods, this is more just about what should govern any of your actions, you should never be handicapped by principles

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Political debates are very cut and dry. If you are invited to a political debate, you can't expect to talk in circles or metaphorical poetic language, you are not writing a novel here, so you will have to get down to the dirty part, the direct part, the honest part, the brutal part, otherwise all the words you write are just words on the screen.. 

Yeah, I’m not talking about politics, but it relates to politics

8 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

so you will have to get down to the dirty part, the direct part

Girl, I’m always ready to get down and dirty lol

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

otherwise all the words you write are just words on the screen.. 

All of this is words on a screen

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, IJB063 said:

You’re right, what I’m saying is we need to round up all these unruly minority, ship em on trains to rural camps and at these camps we’ll all have a fun time and hold hands round a campfire and sing kumbay and John Lennons imagine,

What unruly minority? I don't get you still. 

What are you talking about? 

I'm totally confused. 

[IJB063]

@Preety_India

2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

What unruly minority? I don't get you still. 

What are you talking about? 

I'm totally confused. 

I’m joking
 

I wasn’t implying anything, I wasn’t getting at anything specific when I made this post 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by IJB063

[Preety_India]

@IJB063  that's why I'm not able to give you a proper answer or add anything to your discussion. Because it seems like a thought on the fly.. 

But anyway carry on. Won't disturb your train of thought.

 

 

[IJB063]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

@IJB063  that's why I'm not able to give you a proper answer or add anything to your discussion. Because it seems like a thought on the fly.. 

But anyway carry on. Won't disturb your train of thought.

 

 

A thought on the fly lol

 

[IJB063]

Oh shit, I just realised you meant “on the fly”, I thought you were talking about being a fly on the wall, dunno why, just the way I read it

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

But anyway carry on. Won't disturb your train of thought.

Good, leave me to contemplate peasant