Enlightenment Causing Depression/sadness/feeling Lost

[Mal]

25 minutes ago, Names are labels said:

@Mal

i think it is very easy to get caught up in trying to impress others with enlightenment.  

Yes. Been there done that and bought the t shirt. It's a phase because the work is new and interesting, and there are all these concepts to learn and the promise of something big to come. 

As I have settled into it I have learned to keep it to myself, and I have a very convincing persona of being normal, while under the surface I am struggling with things, pardigm shifting constantly, I look crazy if I didn't hide it from others.  I just would not survive in the world if I was authentic in front of 7 billion inauthentic people who are all all daydreaming their way through life.  I remember Ken Wilber once making a distinction between ethics and morals. He said these are two distinct concepts and that ethics is about adjusting to a groups mentality temporarily while you do the work and don't get dragged into putting out fires lit by the crabs in the bucket who want to pull you back into the illusion. 

I found this really helpful and my therapy helped me a lot in being able to adjust and put over different personas so that I can get on with the real issue of growth.

I cannot help you on the relationship thing, on the surface it looks like a disaster trying to find somebody.  It reminds me of thatnon-duality dating scene sketch on YouTube.  But don't take my word for it, I'm sure you will find somebody who shares your ambition, our karmas or programming are different so I may be subject to a limiting belief about dating.

Anyway, here is the sketch, it's hillarious...

Enjoy...

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Mal

[Guest]

@Leo Gura

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course when you take away all the drug addict's drugs, he will feel a bit sad.

So true, and from what I've seen from my experiences as they let go of one drug, they find a replacement.  They use these drugs ( or whatever they choose- video games, alcohol, porn etc.) as some sort of coping mechanism. Usually it's an emotional thing, a feeling of inadequacy and has a tendency to boost the ego.

You mention in your video "10 Important Things You Don't Know You Want" that we want our lives to be magical like a child.   Is that achieved or can that magic be rekindled through enlightenment and a life purpose?  Would that involve me still going out and doing things and enjoying video games, and other things that people have a tendency to get addicted to but to look at it from a fresh new perspective?

I had a realization last night that if we start giving things labels...we lose the magic of what we are seeing.  It no longer feels new.  Am I on the right track?  I've also heard people say that we should live for today only and like it's our last.  And when we think that way the magic comes back.

[Guest]

@Mal

21 minutes ago, Mal said:

Yes. Been there done that and bought the t shirt. It's a phase because the work is new and interesting, and there are all these concepts to learn and the promise of something big to come. 

As I have settled into it I have learned to keep it to myself, and I have a very convincing persona of being normal, while under the surface I am struggling with things, pardigm shifting constantly, I look crazy if I didn't hide it from others.  I just would not survive in the world if I was authentic in front of 7 billion inauthentic people who are all all daydreaming their way through life.  I remember Ken Wilber once making a distinction between ethics and morals. He said these are two distinct concepts and that ethics is about adjusting to a groups mentality temporarily while you do the work and don't get dragged into putting out fires lit by the crabs in the bucket who want to pull you back into the illusion. 

I found this really helpful and my therapy helped me a lot in being able to adjust and put over different personas so that I can get on with the real issue of growth.

I cannot help you on the relationship thing, on the surface it looks like a disaster trying to find somebody.  It reminds me of thatnon-duality dating scene sketch on YouTube.  But don't take my word for it, I'm sure you will find somebody who shares your ambition, our karmas or programming are different so I may be subject to a limiting belief about dating.

Anyway, here is the sketch, it's hillarious...

Enjoy...

 

Omg....yes I've seen his videos and I just watched it again!  I was laughing so hard.  Imagine if everyone was enlightened and everyone spoke this....lol

I don't tell people what I'm normally doing with enlightenment or life purpose either.  I kept that part of my life very private.  I have to be very selective of who I hang out with because it's so easy to get caught back into the illusion.  But I noticed by having less, I have so much more.  I appreciate the ones that I do have, and they are so special to me and dear to my heart.  And I appreciate the extra down time to study and continue my growth.  I've learned rather quickly that we need BOUNDARIES in place just like you mentioned with the ethics.  You need a wall to put up when dealing with these types of people.  Not that I'm judgemental, and everyone has their own path to go on, but by putting these boundaries in place you're less likely to get hurt and be a target.

I also have a counselor  and a few people I feel close enough to express my personal life journey to and it seems to really help.  We need that support system for growth.  I think I would go insane if I was trying to do this completely by myself! lol

[Mal]

11 minutes ago, Names are labels said:

@Leo Gura

I had a realization last night that if we start giving things labels...we lose the magic of what we are seeing.  It no longer feels new.  Am I on the right track?  

I don't want to put a dampner on things, but this excerise of not labelling things is nonsense.  You want to be in touch with the consciousness inside you which then sees things accurately.  Seeing things accurately, especially of this world, is not to see the magic in them. It's to see them accurately, and accuracy might mean that you see disease and mental illness all around you. 

If you try to disengage your labelling mind to imagine that everything around you is the Divine then I would put that inside the category of kidding ones self.  That sounds like self actualisation, or being perception. Which has got naff all to do with the enlightenment path.  Not in my experience anyway. 

This is just my opinion at the moment. 

[charlie2dogs]

30 minutes ago, Names are labels said:

@charlie2dogs

I think Leo has a check list somewhere that lets you know if you're actualized or not...

Is it a permanent feeling?  Because I think I've experienced this several times during meditation, and hypnosis.  You just feel so calm and at ease. You just go with the flow of things and be in the present moment.

you havent experienced self realization,  there is no check list to tell you if you are self realized, self realization is not a feeling, yes it is permanent, who told you that all you have to do is go with the flow of things and be in the present moment to be enlightened or self realized?  the human identity hasnt experienced the present moment.

when you are talking about self actualization you are not talking about enlightenment or self realization, there is no connection between them. the only thing that might connect them would be some newage thinking.

 

[Guest]

@Mal

2 minutes ago, Mal said:

I don't want to put a dampner on things, but this excerise of not labelling things is nonsense.  You want to be in touch with the consciousness inside you which then sees things accurately.  Seeing things accurately, especially of this world, is not to see the magic in them. It's to see them accurately, and accuracy might mean that you see disease and mental illness all around you. 

If you try to disengage your labelling mind to imagine that everything around you is the Divine then I would put that inside the category of kidding ones self.  That sounds like self actualisation, or being perception. Which has got naff all to do with the enlightenment path.  Not in my experience anyway. 

This is just my opinion at the moment. 

Oh no, not at all! I appreciate the insight. You have a good point there.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Names are labels
grammar edit :)

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, charlie2dogs said:

you havent experienced self realization,  there is no check list to tell you if you are self realized, self realization is not a feeling, yes it is permanent, who told you that all you have to do is go with the flow of things and be in the present moment to be enlightened or self realized?  the human identity hasnt experienced the present moment.

when you are talking about self actualization you are not talking about enlightenment or self realization, there is no connection between them. the only thing that might connect them would be some newage thinking.

 

It sounds like I need to deepen my research and studying. and back track a little bit.  I think I have it confused! lol

[99th_monkey]

16 hours ago, cetus56 said:

 

Nope

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Names are labels said:

@Emerald Wilkins

Thanks for your insight, advice and perspective.  I see now that I need to change my thinking in that direction.  In the world we live in it would be completely impossible for me to give up everything, but to know it the back of my mind that we give these things meaning may be enough.   It sounds like I need to work with my subconscious mind, where all habits, behaviors and beliefs stem from.

Yeah I was definitely becoming very suppressed, but I was letting go at times.  (It's funny because as I write this....there is no I...there is no self...lol) 

Consciousness has allowed me let go of TV and video games and become more outgoing and apart of nature.
I wonder how a person that's enlightened writes emails...knowing that there is no I !!!! ...lol

You're welcome! As long as you are mindful, these things should melt away naturally.

[Guest]

@Emerald Wilkins

I think I was also burning myself out with too much studying.  I would spend my entire day off reading and watching Leo's videos. I just want this so bad and I really believe that I can do this, if I can get some structure down and a good plan.  I also recently started a new career and got multiple certifications in various things.  As I've mentioned to you before in other posts that I do hypnosis and reiki.  I threw too many things in the pot at once, that I couldn't focus.  I think I need to master one at a time instead of taking on too many things! lol Leo's life purpose course talks about that too!

[Guest]

@charlie2dogs

11 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

you havent experienced self realization,  there is no check list to tell you if you are self realized, self realization is not a feeling, yes it is permanent, who told you that all you have to do is go with the flow of things and be in the present moment to be enlightened or self realized?  the human identity hasnt experienced the present moment.

when you are talking about self actualization you are not talking about enlightenment or self realization, there is no connection between them. the only thing that might connect them would be some newage thinking.

 

This was the list I was talking about with the self actualized stuff.  Leo has it posted and it says- What is Self Actualization.  I'm going to copy and paste this here.  I love this list, it's very self explanatory and gives great direction. 

I was referring to a checklist of self actualization not self realization.  I'm sorry if I wasn't clear with my writing.  But I can see how they can be so easily confusing, if you don't know the differences.


 

The concept of self-actualization comes to us from the humanistic psychologist, Abraham Maslow. Maslow defined the self-actualizing human being as follows.

Self-actualization is the expression of your true self, your fullest potential, and your great capacities. Self-actualizing people exhibit the following traits:

Have a superior perception of reality — they see things in an objective, accepting way without intruding themselves upon what is being perceived.

Have an increased acceptance of self, others, and nature.

Have increased spontaneity in behavior — they can be unpredictable and outrageous.

Are more focused on the problem than themselves.

Have increased detachment and desire for privacy.

Have increased autonomy and sense of individuality — take full responsibility for how their lives unfold.

Are resistant to social conditioning. World-citizens not beholden to any one culture. Pick and choose what they like from culture.

Are comfortable being themselves even if that means being unpopular.

Have a good sense of what is real and unreal. Value truth and facts over beliefs.

Have great freshness of appreciation and richness of emotional reaction.

Have higher frequency of peak experiences. Being in flow state more often.

Have an increased identification with the human species.

Have improved interpersonal relationships.

Have a more democratic character structure.

Have greatly increased creativeness.

Have a deep knowledge of themselves.

Are constantly moving toward unity and integration of their personality and world view.

Are actively nurturing their talents.

Place great value on truth, beauty, goodness, uniqueness, wholeness, justice, simplicity, richness, effortlessness, and playfulness.

Are driven by positive, intrinsic motivation, not by lack.

Generally enjoy most aspects of life, not just achievement, triumph, or peak experiences.

Take pleasure in functioning at their prime.

Take a non-valuing, non-judging, non-interfering, non-condemning attitude towards others.

Are more loving. They need love less but are able to give love more.

Embrace conceptual dichotomies, polarities, and conflicts by fusing, transcending, or resolving. Are comfortable with paradox, contradiction, and not knowing.

Have desires and impulses that correlate with what's good for them.

Have solid psychological health.

Live on purpose with a sense of mission. Work is a precious cause.

Involved in improving the world.

Willing to admit and correct mistakes.

Have an easy self-discipline which comes hard to average people. Duty and pleasure are the same.

Gratify themselves moderately rather than abstaining through harsh self-discipline.

Express impulses more yet use less control. Controls are less rigid or anxiety-driven.

Are able to express their aggression in a healthier way, as a sort of righteous indignation rather than a lashing out.

Have a different, new set of concerns: being-challenges vs needs-challenges.

Live to experience joy rather than avoid pain.

Live in the present moment.

Make more conscious decisions.

[Emerald]

58 minutes ago, Names are labels said:

@Emerald Wilkins

I think I was also burning myself out with too much studying.  I would spend my entire day off reading and watching Leo's videos. I just want this so bad and I really believe that I can do this, if I can get some structure down and a good plan.  I also recently started a new career and got multiple certifications in various things.  As I've mentioned to you before in other posts that I do hypnosis and reiki.  I threw too many things in the pot at once, that I couldn't focus.  I think I need to master one at a time instead of taking on too many things! lol Leo's life purpose course talks about that too!

Yes. I've been there too. I try to stack too many things on my plate and I can't sustain it very well. But be careful approaching enlightenment in the same way that you would approach other goals (career and personal development) as enlightenment is not a goal, even if it's your desired outcome. It works differently. Willpower and determination can be your enemy in some senses because it has a lot to do with resistance and bringing yourself somewhere. Enlightenment is all about removing illusions, letting go of attachments, and being what you are.

Now, you have to have enough willpower to do the inquiry and meditation work. But willpower can get in the way of surrender and letting go. I relate it to a paper printing out and willpower trying to pull the paper out as it's printing and the message becoming smeared. Or a flower that you want to grow faster so you pull on it but your results are just an uprooting and not a growing. So, you have to paradoxically will yourself to seek enlightenment while also letting go of will and seeking of enlightenment. My recommendation is just to take time to observe your perceptions (including thoughts) as they are without any preconceived notions superimposed over top of them. Best of luck!

[Guest]

@charlie2dogs

12 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

you havent experienced self realization,  there is no check list to tell you if you are self realized, self realization is not a feeling, yes it is permanent, who told you that all you have to do is go with the flow of things and be in the present moment to be enlightened or self realized?  the human identity hasnt experienced the present moment.

when you are talking about self actualization you are not talking about enlightenment or self realization, there is no connection between them. the only thing that might connect them would be some newage thinking.

 

I'm trying to get a better grounding and understanding of the differences here.  I found this definition on Wikipedia.

Self-realization is an expression used in psychology, spirituality, and Eastern religions. It is defined as the "fulfillment by oneself of the possibilities of one's character or personality." 

If there is a better definition or it could be better explained please let me know. I really want to understand this.


I just randomly searched on the internet and I found this and I thought this was interesting.  Tell me what you think.   It looks like some kind of check list or questionnaire to see if you are self realized.  It has a a bit of a religious association to it, but I like the questions it is asking.  I bet some of them could be rephrased differently without the religious parts in it if it was desired. To me it doesn't matter where the journey takes me as long as I find those answers. That's what's important.  I don't judge others.

http://news.manmin.or.kr/2012/en/content.asp?id=2412&cat=cat_08&page=25

1. Do you comply with the wishes of others in peace?

2. Do you maintain peace with all men and unchangingly work faithfully?

3. Do you rejoice when others are praised and can you offer praise together with them?

4. Do you always speak honestly?

5. Do you look at the strengths of others?

6. Do you keep your promises without fail even if they seem trivial?

etc. and more questions listed at link

[Guest]

@Emerald Wilkins

3 minutes ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

Yes. I've been there too. I try to stack too many things on my plate and I can't sustain it very well. But be careful approaching enlightenment in the same way that you would approach other goals (career and personal development) as enlightenment is not a goal, even if it's your desired outcome. It works differently. Willpower and determination can be your enemy in some senses because it has a lot to do with resistance and bringing yourself somewhere. Enlightenment is all about removing illusions, letting go of attachments, and being what you are.

Now, you have to have enough willpower to do the inquiry and meditation work. But willpower can get in the way of surrender and letting go. I relate it to a paper printing out and willpower trying to pull the paper out as it's printing and the message becoming smeared. Or a flower that you want to grow faster so you pull on it but your results are just an uprooting and not a growing. So, you have to paradoxically will yourself to seek enlightenment while also letting go of will and seeking of enlightenment. My recommendation is just to take time to observe your perceptions (including thoughts) as they are without any preconceived notions superimposed over top of them. Best of luck!

Thank you!  Enlightenment is not a goal....very interesting insight....but a state of mind absent of desire or suffering...
 

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Names are labels said:

@Emerald Wilkins

Thank you!  Enlightenment is not a goal....very interesting insight....but a state of mind absent of desire or suffering...
 

You're welcome!

[IndependantKouhai]

Can totally confirm this, have just started the self-improvement journey myself. Started limiting my addiction to porn, completely let go of video games and other unnecessary cravings/addictions, started exercising daily and forcing myself to spend more time reading. It's hard, your mind makes all of these incoherent excuses to why you should play that one game, why you should feel bad and so on, trying my best to control these thoughts, but for now, I'm still struggling.

Just as Leo said "Of course when you take away all the drug addict's drugs, he will feel a bit sad."

And yes, I believe it's better not even to mention what you're doing to other people.