Do not approach women

[something_else]

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

I think you're being quite naive and idealistic. Spiral Dynamics operates on the principle of "transcend and include," not "transcend and bypass."

Weirdly, this is pretty much just our arguments flipped. I'm arguing for Transcend and Include for Orange -> Green, your argument seems to be transcend Orange to Yellow and bypass Green.

My follow up point is that Green's effectiveness comes in different forms from Orange, forms that when evaluated under an Orange value structure seem ineffective when they are actually not.

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We saw this in real time in December 2025 with the Iranian protests that gathered millions of disenfranchized people but that ultimately were unsuccessful in doing much against the regime since there were no functional process to achieve change apart from venting protesting and "collective awareness". 

Well, the US now has a massive democratic majority that will likely lead to the end of the Iran war. Or at the very least make significant progress towards ending it. This massive majority was largely possible because of a change in the cultural zeitgeist, created by collective awareness.

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You make a common mistake on this forum of trying to bypass and invalidate the value and virtue of Stage Orange.

I think Stage Orange is very valuable when it's healthy. I've never had any interest in bypassing it, most of my life has been spent on Orange values tbh.

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A shift in the collective zeitgeist is merely potential energy; if the frustration at the status quo is not channeled by an individual or organization with specific goals and the competency to achieve them then the status quo will remain.

Exactly, but without that potential energy an individual cannot act as the lightning bolt that sparks change. Green is all about creating this potential energy at a cultural level through shared value systems.

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

I'm evaluating it based on what actually produces positive change in the real world. Having Stage Green ideals without competence is 90% useless. 10% is useful in terms of introspecting on what the world needs but the other 90% is action taking. 

Again, this is evaluating Green under an Orange value structure. Green's methods of producing change in the world don't live at the level of the individual, they live in the shared culture of a society of individuals.

Red vs Blue is a good analogy, again. Red's method of effectiveness is individual violence and power, Blue's is in the collective authoritarian regime that everybody follows. From the perspective of Red, emerging Blue is useless because it creates weaker individuals. However the shared values of Blue across an entire culture produce a cohesive unit that is more effective than Red as a whole.

Orange to Green is similar. Green doesn't necessarily produce more individually successful people according to Orange's standards, but its shared values can produce forms of collective effectiveness that Orange alone struggles to achieve. For example, Scandinavian countries.

[Majed]

@something_else We should ban the topic of spiral dynamics from this forum 😝.