Leo, I Think Your Model of Reality Is Missing a Mechanism

[Ziran]

57 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

I see your point. But the second we talk about it, it kind of becomes a concept again, doesn’t it?

Unanswerable questions are gates.

[Willy Phallicus]

32 minutes ago, Cred said:

What if one were to describe logically what experience is?

Are you offering to rationally and logically explain how I am not a drop in the ocean but the ocean in a drop?  Because Im pretty sure that metaphor was employed because such a thing cannot be grasped by the logical mind - only the mind capable of going beyond logic.

[Monster Energy]

@Willy Phallicus 

You can express it through logic or you can reject logic, but you’re still making a claim either way. Saying the divine exists but can’t be explained logically is still a statement made through reasoning. The mystery might be deeper than logic, but the moment we talk about it, we’re already using it.

 

[Monster Energy]

8 minutes ago, Ziran said:

Unanswerable questions are gates.

Unanswerable questions are concepts.

 

[Willy Phallicus]

Just now, Monster Energy said:

Saying the divine exists but can’t be explained logically is still a statement made through reasoning.

What are my options lol?

No one can explain the big bang logically but they still wont call it a miracle.  Reasoning only takes you so far and then something else thats not reasoning has to take over.

If you disagree, I can live with that.

[Monster Energy]

1 minute ago, Willy Phallicus said:

What are my options lol?

No one can explain the big bang logically but they still wont call it a miracle.  Reasoning only takes you so far and then something else thats not reasoning has to take over.

If you disagree, I can live with that.

The Big Bang isn’t called a miracle just because it’s unexplained. It’s simply an open question. The absence of an explanation doesn’t automatically mean that something beyond reason has to take over.

And notice the paradox. Even saying that reasoning only goes so far is still a claim made through reasoning.

 

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

The Big Bang isn’t called a miracle just because it’s unexplained. It’s simply an open question. The absence of an explanation doesn’t automatically mean that something beyond reason has to take over.

That's cause they are foolish and don't understand a miracle has occured.

Quote

And notice the paradox. Even saying that reasoning only goes so far is still a claim made through reasoning.

It's not a paradox. A system can understand its own limits.

Edited yesterday at 06:46 PM by Leo Gura

[Willy Phallicus]

Just now, Monster Energy said:

Even saying that reasoning only goes so far is still a claim made through reasoning.

And reasoning very much asserts that you can't approach the divine through logic and the evidence for that is that it's never been done.  If that's not enough evidence for you, I dont know what to tell you.

Logic is a branch of science or a science unto itself.  According to scientific logic nothing should exist but nevertheless we are here anyway by total fluke and coincidence thanks to complex life forming by pure happenstance for no reason at all.

[Monster Energy]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's cause they are foolish and don't understood a miracle has occured.

It's not a paradox. A system can understand its own limits.

If the system can only speak from within itself, then any claim about what’s beyond it is still coming from inside the system. 

[Monster Energy]

1 minute ago, Willy Phallicus said:

And reasoning very much asserts that you can't approach the divine through logic and the evidence for that is that it's never been done.  If that's not enough evidence for you, I dont know what to tell you.

Logic is a branch of science or a science unto itself.  According to scientific logic nothing should exist but nevertheless we are here anyway by total fluke and coincidence thanks to complex life forming by pure happenstance for no reason at all.

Something never having been done isn’t proof that it can’t be done. It just means we don’t know yet.

And logic doesn’t say nothing should exist. Logic just describes relationships between things that already exist.

 

[Willy Phallicus]

27 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

If the system can only speak from within itself, then any claim about what’s beyond it is still coming from inside the system. 

We're speaking the same language whether you are cognizant of it or not.

You can go beyond the system but you cant bring the beyond back with you to give to anyone else.

24 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

Something never having been done isn’t proof that it can’t be done. It just means we don’t know yet.

So all the great teachers and philosophers of the past and present are just a bunch of clueless hacks who don't have a clue and never did?  It could also be undebatable evidence that there is no logical proof.  Just go ask the atheists for their thoughts on the matter, they love to remind everyone what logic has to say about the existence of god.

Logic and the pondering of the mysteries has been around since the hills were young and some very great minds have weighed in on the topic of Being and they all pretty much say this shit can't be grasped if you're clutching your ego and using its logic to understand something that, by definition, is completely illogical.

Edit: Yes, science and its logic does indeed say its a miracle life exists except they don't call it a miracle.

Edited yesterday at 06:57 PM by Willy Phallicus

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

If the system can only speak from within itself, then any claim about what’s beyond it is still coming from inside the system. 

No, because all systems are embedded within Infinite Consciousness.

Infinite Consciousness can see through all systems.

The God in you can see beyond rationality and language. You know that there is more to Reality than logic can explain.

Your true nature is Unlimited.

Edited yesterday at 06:49 PM by Leo Gura

[Monster Energy]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, because all systems are embedded within Infinite Consciousness.

Infinite Consciousness can see through all systems.

The God in you can see beyond rationality and language. You know that there is more to Reality than logic can explain.

Your true nature is Unlimited.

Incredible 

[Monster Energy]

@Leo Gura 

I’m not convinced existence “knows everything about itself.” That sounds like projecting a human idea of knowledge onto reality as a whole. Maybe existence doesn’t have perfect self-awareness. Maybe it just is, and whatever understanding appears only arises locally through conscious beings trying to make sense of it.