Democrats should run a scorched-earth message on the media environment!

[Elliott]

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

That doesnt sound like prosperity lol

The thought is that people, society in total, will be more productive in the important ways, if basic needs are first met.

For example, the thought is that there is untapped potential, untapped genius, right now in impoverished areas(half the world). And that there's a lot of waste, just to run our dysfunctional system, think of all the bad things done because of scarcity mindset.

Edited 3 hours ago by Elliott

[Wilhelm44]

1 minute ago, Elliott said:

The thought is that people, society in total, will be more productive in the important ways, if basic needs are first met.

For example, the thought is that there is untapped potential, untapped genius, right now in impoverished areas(half the world)

Yeah im all for that, but will those people then have the freedom to use their genius and start their own business and become wealthy enough to travel the world ? Socialism seems great to meet basic needs, but then i sense there's some curtailing of freedom in the end. Thats why i still say there must be a practical way to get the best aspects of capitalism and socialism together, while limiting the negative aspects of both.

[Elliott]

26 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Yeah im all for that, but will those people then have the freedom to use their genius and start their own business and become wealthy enough to travel the world ? Socialism seems great to meet basic needs, but then i sense there's some curtailing of freedom in the end.

Is business what we as people or society ultimately desire?

Quote

Thats why i still say there must be a practical way to get the best aspects of capitalism and socialism together, while limiting the negative aspects of both.

That's capitalism, not socialism. There's no 'mix', they're two different systems, welfare is a capitalist program.

Think of socialism as collective ownership. Capitalism as cash transaction system, with charity. Think of tribal times, before paper, before written ownership, but now add back in; civility. In tribal times people robbed each other, but they also shared everything, they traded with foreigners, but not with currency(capital).

Capital/cash, Social/everyone has equal ownership of the world, no capital.

Consider what capital/cash actually is. It's created-debt. That's what socialism does away with.

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Elliott

[Wilhelm44]

@Elliott Business is not what we ultimately desire. But i think freedom is a big one for a lot of people. Thats what a business can give someone, ie the ability to travel to an exotic destination for a holiday if they so choose. (with collective ownership will we reach those levels of prosperity and freedom ?) 

[Elliott]

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

@Elliott Business is not what we ultimately desire. But i think freedom is a big one for a lot of people. Thats what a business can give someone, ie the ability to travel to an exotic destination for a holiday if they so choose.

 

Quote

(with collective ownership will we reach those levels of prosperity and freedom ?) 

The idea is yes, it's utopian.

The idea is that there's a lot of waste in capitalism, just to run our dysfunctional system, think of all the bad things done because of scarcity mindset. The idea is socialism will be more productive, in the desired ways.

Edited 3 hours ago by Elliott

[Wilhelm44]

6 minutes ago, Elliott said:

 

The idea is yes, it's utopian.

The idea is that there's a lot of waste in capitalism, just to run our dysfunctional system, think of all the bad things done because of scarcity mindset. The idea is socialism will be more productive, in the desired ways.

Well, then Im all for it, i just dont want it to be put in place through violence. 

[Elliott]

15 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Well, then Im all for it, i just dont want it to be put in place through violence. 

I'm not promoting it, I'm a capitalist. I don't think it would work with the current level of common intelligence(why it requires violence). I was just trying to show the vast differences and inherent conflict between the two.

Edited 2 hours ago by Elliott

[Wilhelm44]

16 minutes ago, Elliott said:

I'm not promoting it, I'm a capitalist. I don't think it would work with the current level of common intelligence(why it requires violence). I was just trying to show the vast differences and inherent conflict between the two.

So you think pure capitalism is the best system ?

[Elliott]

45 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

So you think pure capitalism is the best system ?

Capitalism just means we use capital, private ownership, it means nothing in regard to social programs like welfare or UBI, nor does it mean anything about how we tax, which I believe you're insinuating. Scandinavia is capitalist. I think we need constitutional direct-democracies, in regard to social programs like UBI and welfare, which I support, this would be capitalist. "pure capitalist" is a misnomer, it's not even a real concept, it's just capitalism, you probably mean neo-liberalism/corporatism(pseudo-free market), no I don't support those.

Edited 1 hour ago by Elliott

[Cred]

nvm. I editing to make a new reply

Edited 59 minutes ago by Cred

[Wilhelm44]

53 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Capitalism just means we use capital, private ownership, it means nothing in regard to social programs like welfare or UBI, nor does it mean anything about how we tax, which I believe you're insinuating. Scandinavia is capitalist. I think we need constitutional direct-democracies, in regard to social programs like UBI and welfare, which I support, this would be capitalist. "pure capitalist" is a misnomer, it's not even a real concept, it's just capitalism, you probably mean neo-liberalism/corporatism(pseudo-free market), no I don't support those.

Maybe i used the wrong term when i said a combination of capitalism and socialism. I meant like Scandinavia, ie freedom to do business, but basic needs are looked after in a way.

[Cred]

I agree with a lot of things you talked about. Both sides.

Elliott seems to know a fair amount about socialism/communism.

You talked a lot about what socialism/communism is as a system and how it is different from capitalism.

I don't really think in this way, since I think it is kinda speculative to talk about how some society might at some point be organized.

In addition, I think it's not that important what the specific system of a country is. There are a lot of people saying that china is capitalist. The only thing that is really important in my opinion is that marxism is at least very strongly embedded into the culture of the country, through the constitution, for example. Developing ontomodality, I have found, that a lot of people (avolonics) don't actually know what to do when they don't have anyone to tell them. What this means is that a lot of people in power are happy to check the constitution when they are making a decision. The main problem with liberals therefore is not the development stage of the liberal, but the fact that the liberal culture and values is inherently exploitative. So few liberals are evil, actually. They just do what liberals do, and this leads to upholding capitalism and therefore produces suffering. 

This is why I'm not worried about capitalism in China. Even if a lot of people in the government are corrupt, most of them will still look into the constitution and as a result, aim to give more power to the people.

2 hours ago, Elliott said:

I don't think it would work with the current level of common intelligence(why it requires violence)

This is why this is false. Once the revolution happens and the constitution is changed, capitalism will slowly suffocate in that country (very simplified and idealized of course).

Even if the communist led state collapses, which only happens with enormous outside pressure, Marxism will still be part of the identity of the people. You can see this in Russia. There is still a ton of soviet nostalgia present in Russia which, in my opinion makes Russia way more susceptible for another revolution. 

Edited 27 minutes ago by Cred