lmfao

Nice ?

@Rilles why your pfp looking like an ECG lmfao

@nitramadas I hope your understanding isn't shaped by websites like 16personalities.com. Because that ain't MBTI That site is literally Big Five, they literally admit it on their website. --- When you so blatantly dismiss how the cognitive functions work I question how well you understand MBTI at all. An INTJ will not evolve into an INTP. I've met many INTJs and many INTPs. These dichotomies of Ti vs Te, Ne vs Ni... aren't arbitrary, just because they're both thinking and intuitive. The differences between introverted and extroverted attitudes of S, N, T and F are quite stark. Is it meaningless that INTP and INTJ share three letters? No. Are there some very loose commonalities between all thinkers? Yes. But the differences are huge, and you'd understand that if you knew the theory better. An extra layer to what I've said so far is that the thinking (and intuition) functions for both types are in different positions in their stack. I mentioned this in my previous post, but you seem to have ignored it. You asked "what happens if an INTP becomes judging". This whole "judging" business was an invention that Jung never stated for the sake of constructing function stacks in MBTI. The assertion of a P vs J as a scale isn't MBTI. P vs J is about whether you introvert or extrovert your perceiving and decision making functions. As a heuristic for a newbie you can correlate it to conscientiousness, but that's not the same as causation or its definition. --- Whilst personality is often fixed, I'm optimistic and open to the possibility it can change as well. But in regards to all you've mentioned, 1) The personality change needn't be expressed through a change in MBTI category (since this is just one lens. ) 2) A single unit of change needn't happen along any of these 4 scales/axes in XXXX, because XXXX being a 4 scales was never the right way to view it. XXXX is a code for function stacks. I don't think about mbti much in my day to day thinking because I don't think it captures anything meaningfully mechanics wise, and it might just be a categorisation of outward correlates that don't reveal anything substantial. Sort of like if a child categorised everything in reality by what physical color it was. Hence if you're interested in personality growth and etc I wouldn't think about it in these terms. ____________________________________________ Also, at the start of conversation, you ended up trying to make a lot of judgements and guesses about me rather than engaging in the topic of conversation. Projecting whatever you did about spiral dynamics. And I've seen a few of your posts elsewhere. It seems like an unconscious mentality where you're comparing yourself to others too much. Spiral dynamics is this standard for worth and so your mind is obsessed with knowing your own position on it, and also knowing where other people are on it. The same way many people are always comparing how materially rich they are with each others, using fads like shoes, phones and cars as proxies for self worth. Or like a kid in high school comparing his test scores with other kids. The real truth of the matter behind what I'm saying though, is that I just dislike you. The rest is probably just an extra layer of deception.

@Leo Gura everyone and their grandma is a conspiracy theorist now. There used to be a time when being a conspiracy theorist was actually cool. Old school 9/11 truthers were swag. Old school conspiracy theorists were bipartisan and had their own opinions. Now every patriotic boomer is claiming covid is fake because they love daddy trump and want to shit on the libs. Normies ruin everything, conspiracy theories being one of them.

Brother, watch the video I linked in your other thread for understanding ne vs ni

@nitramadas Alright, there's communication mismatch going on here. I've only shown you a small part of the web in my mind, and now you're curious about more but it takes forever to unfold it all. I say that not in an arrogant tone, but am just lamenting that whenever I type things like this I end up having to unpack a lot. So to clarify things. intp and intj have a lot of similarities. But also a lot of differences. Viewing XXXX as 4 scales works roughly and well enough for a newbie. What I was going after isn't you saying intp and and intj have similarities, but I'm stating how the system should work at a ground zero level. Stating things like "xxxJ types tend be more organised and conscientious" work, but they are secondary things from how it is definitionally. xxxJ means your dominant perceiving function is introverted and your dominant decision making function is extroverted. Is describing xxxJ types as conscientious a good heuristic? Yes. But it isn't the same thing. And I state these exact things about the system because that's how I see the starting point and foundation to be. You're very right to state how there are similarities between all xxTx for example. But I'm laying things out definitionally. Because I feel that if someone is a genuine student of these things, there's a right and a wrong way to do it. In summary, what I've been on a tirade against is a semantic issue where people define mbti definitionally as 4 scales from 0 to 100. And they end up conflating the system with Big Five. Prior to mbti in the chain of things epistomologically is this. Sensing, intuition, feeling, thinking, these things can be thought of individually. And there are introverted and extroverted expressions of them. As jung described. And mbti is a further imposition and set of assumptions on how those elements are structured. --- Look man, my mind is a massive tornado of things with this all, I could talk forever. It would take too long. I'm not trying to be emo or edgy, but the only reason you perceive me as orange is that you've only seen one side of me, and my mind is a lateral mess that takes forever to verbally unweave because I have a lot of things at once in my mind which I can't all communicate immediately. And putting my thought forms into words takes a long time and could go on forever. English and writing was always my weakest subject. I have a good ability to talk about all these semantic details but it brings me little pleasure at times.

@jim123 I'm not sure what you meant by worshipping death. And then you went to a few different things. I'll just briefly say what I find important about death. Death awareness is the universal spiritual practice for all people. We walk around in the dreamstate, and death is ultimate slap in the face to all illusions and hiding. It makes a fool of all ideology and sheep-like ways of living. And if I or you stay asleep, in one blink we'll both be sitting on our death beds, realising we let it all slip away. Death, impermanence, flux, these are things you can observe in your experience.

If I type someone go off of vibe and guessing. These things are like archetypes with flavours. Once you taste a certain flavour you can see it in others. But the exact categories themselves in mbti arent something worth trying to make 100% true with a verbal system. Conversations about trying to pin someone to an exact type, I used to do that but not anymore. It would be mental masturbation and strain for no reason. I only do it if someone asks me to or as a whim. The verbal salad I unloaded on you was a program I tapped into, because the entire perspective was me trying to describe what I think the definitions should be, even though I never use such systems anymore and think there's no point in using such systems. But if you wish to use such systems, I think that's how they should be.

@nitramadas Okay so this is coming down to the significance of what "XXXX" represents. There are two answers but it's probably something gray. But I strongly default to one of the answers than the other. Some people view XXXX as representing your position on 4 scales of measurement. 4 dimensions, like scales from 0 to 100 for the dichotomies (I vs E, S vs N,.. Etc). I think this is very problematic if you look at the history of MBTI and cognitive functions, and I see this as people's attempt to fuse Big Five Traits into MBTI, when they aren't the same thing. I tend to view XXXX as nothing but a code for what function stack you have. There are a set of rules by which you read XXXX to determine the function stack. (and those set of rules and the resulting function stack don't negate the validity of seeing XXXX as scales, since xxTx will always have a thinking function near the top) I see it as the more comprehensive and consistent way of phrasing it, not being completely mutually exclusive to phrasing it as 4 dimensions for the sake of understanding things easier. But not being the same either. ---- The 16 personalities website is an abomination to me. They openly say on their webpage that everything they're measuring is Big Five Traits, and that they use MBTI language to tell you what your Big Five Results are. (hence they added that extra turbulent vs assertive axis for neuroticism which is nowhere in mbti) The Big Five Traits model is all about measuring your position on 5 dimensions. I keep it separate from MBTI albeit there is overlap and correlations between your result in one model and your result in the other. But they are correlations and not perfect ones either. --- I don't think or care much about MBTI more anymore, this is like a reservoir of data I just have. It's not an important model I operate from or think about anymore.

Uh yeah, pure theory still important. Was just making the quick side point that it's often more important to observe the external effects and patterns that arise from a system rather than trying to infer what they should be in a theoretical ideal. Just a side point to be weighted in. Don't ask me about spiral dynamics green bro I have no clue. I'm all for removal of prejudice embedded into society, how fields of knowledge can be indistinguishable from power (rather than endeavours in truth for the sake of truth) , self acceptance and all that feminine healing stuff, but politics has put me off from it all.

@nitramadas INTJs are very different from INTP. They share no cognitive functions.

@nitramadas I'd say possibly. MBTI is a system we unjustifiably superimpose on reality. And so I think the way to judge what you're asking is to observe other people who are INTPs, rather than deduce it from pure theory. From my experience, I think being INTP gives you a better chance of being yellow. But it's not a guarantee. I've seen many INTP get trapped in orange, and in their autism they vehemently deny spirituality, and all femininity otherwise. But that said. I think "Ti" as a cognitive function makes one more likely to transcend orange and reach yellow. Compared to Te users who will triple and quadruple down on their autism as absolute metaphysical truth. (Te users aren't Ne users, and Ne users are the most open minded of any group. On average ofc) I can say this about myself. I jumped from orange to yellow very quickly, skipping green or having a green shadow. Because I've always been very philosophical and open minded. And then later, and now, I have to go back and look at green.

@PurpleTree I've been to a few of these things irl. In fact I still attend something weekly for a while now, but just online due to covid. I don't think it's a problem of the west as much as it's a problem with Buddhism. Many of the people in the groups tend to be bland and dogmatic. They spout a few basic dogmas as if they've discovered the Holy Grail. --- A normie is a normie, regardless of what outer garments they wear. --- In the west, Christian symbols became tiresome and meaningless. But now what's caught your eye is a foreign land with more symbols. But I think that the disillusionment with symbols has an importance and universality that transcends all cultures.

Asking what makes a good question is a good question. To ask a sincere and deep question, you have to admit in the first place that you don't know and are clueless. Even reaching this state of admittance is difficult with all our taken for granted filters and assumptions. And then you make the intention to investigate/observe/learn, as/after you empty your cup.

Spiral dynamics stages will correlate to your "level of consciousness" for various reasons, but they aren't the same thing. There isn't a simple arrow of causation here. So I would get it out your head that higher consciousness and spiral dynamics stages are the same thing. Ken Wilber himself explicitly differentiates spiral dynamics as a model for "growing up" as different from "waking up". There are some ancient models for waking up which I don't know much about.

Whether correct or incorrect, there's a perceived disconnect between the forum and Leo's youtube channel. So that could be part of it. Leo the YouTuber has over a million subs and gets thousands of views per vid. But on the forum, there are only a few hundred people. And only a subset of that is the most active.

@Moksha I don't meditate as regularly anymore or go into concentration states as much anymore. But I can definitely relate to the notion flux alters or slows down when you reach higher consciousness. I used to be obsessed with the question of time, am open to the idea it doesn't even exist. And the question has popped up again for me. To say any sort of word inside your head requires time, but if you're very much in the present moment you can in a sense not give it that time, and your mind becomes more quiet. When you're in the present moment enough, to a degree you can shoot down thoughts before they even happen like an archer.

@Preety_India Jordan Peterson has a very good lecture on agreeableness ; ) , a Big Five personality trait you're probably on the extreme end of I know you hate this guy but trust me some of his lectures are gold ?

I can vouch for this book, it's pretty good. I only read half of it but it's on my mind to re-read. --- I don't think this issue has to only be framed in terms of being nice vs not being nice. It's still about enforcing boundaries. But I think it can also be framed in terms of self-defence and effectiveness. The same way you defend yourself from a physical attack, you do the same to an emotional or psychological attack. You can be prepared to deal with the world whilst still being loving/trusting to it. Once you emanate the right energy of not being exploitable, you'll also get into less trouble since predators hunt for certain energy. Don't think you have to kill or repress a part of your authentic loving self to deal with psychos and narcs. Instead see it as trying to grow. Easier said than done ofc though.

This thread is fucking hilarious, keep the posts coming

[retracted post] this would be great for an INTP Examples Mega-Thread

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@Shin Shin you bastard, is this image supposed to be an ideological purity test? Of course I recognise that cartoon!

@IamMystic The traditional understanding of reality is that events unfold as intervals in this 1D continuous quantity called time. An interval/(line segment) contains an infinite number of points. And the present moment is conceptualised as a single point. Yet we know, everything is always now and we're always in the present. But conceptually speaking, it's confusing. A point is sizeless by definition. A snapshot of time is fixed, there's no leeway for movement or flux. Yet we experience flux, experience change as a lived reality.

@sholomar I get you. I don't like extreme social justice warriors either. A minority of people are far too spotlighted on social media. Sometimes politics makes me question what spiral dynamics is when I see these fools. I hope it's a minority of young people, you can't measure numbers online. With group think and authoritarianism, they use the magical powers of the tribe to silence individuals. I used to be very affable to them. I support the general direction they're trying to take things, since there's still prejudice and barriers for minorities in society to address, but they aren't folks who I like to be chummy with. I know I'm weak and I'm projecting. But every-time I see these people, all I see are weak and lame betas. Not too much better than the other side, although they push my buttons more than the other side. Because at least the other side is more straightforward to deal with.