lmfao

If I type someone go off of vibe and guessing. These things are like archetypes with flavours. Once you taste a certain flavour you can see it in others. But the exact categories themselves in mbti arent something worth trying to make 100% true with a verbal system. Conversations about trying to pin someone to an exact type, I used to do that but not anymore. It would be mental masturbation and strain for no reason. I only do it if someone asks me to or as a whim. The verbal salad I unloaded on you was a program I tapped into, because the entire perspective was me trying to describe what I think the definitions should be, even though I never use such systems anymore and think there's no point in using such systems. But if you wish to use such systems, I think that's how they should be.

@nitramadas Okay so this is coming down to the significance of what "XXXX" represents. There are two answers but it's probably something gray. But I strongly default to one of the answers than the other. Some people view XXXX as representing your position on 4 scales of measurement. 4 dimensions, like scales from 0 to 100 for the dichotomies (I vs E, S vs N,.. Etc). I think this is very problematic if you look at the history of MBTI and cognitive functions, and I see this as people's attempt to fuse Big Five Traits into MBTI, when they aren't the same thing. I tend to view XXXX as nothing but a code for what function stack you have. There are a set of rules by which you read XXXX to determine the function stack. (and those set of rules and the resulting function stack don't negate the validity of seeing XXXX as scales, since xxTx will always have a thinking function near the top) I see it as the more comprehensive and consistent way of phrasing it, not being completely mutually exclusive to phrasing it as 4 dimensions for the sake of understanding things easier. But not being the same either. ---- The 16 personalities website is an abomination to me. They openly say on their webpage that everything they're measuring is Big Five Traits, and that they use MBTI language to tell you what your Big Five Results are. (hence they added that extra turbulent vs assertive axis for neuroticism which is nowhere in mbti) The Big Five Traits model is all about measuring your position on 5 dimensions. I keep it separate from MBTI albeit there is overlap and correlations between your result in one model and your result in the other. But they are correlations and not perfect ones either. --- I don't think or care much about MBTI more anymore, this is like a reservoir of data I just have. It's not an important model I operate from or think about anymore.

Uh yeah, pure theory still important. Was just making the quick side point that it's often more important to observe the external effects and patterns that arise from a system rather than trying to infer what they should be in a theoretical ideal. Just a side point to be weighted in. Don't ask me about spiral dynamics green bro I have no clue. I'm all for removal of prejudice embedded into society, how fields of knowledge can be indistinguishable from power (rather than endeavours in truth for the sake of truth) , self acceptance and all that feminine healing stuff, but politics has put me off from it all.

@nitramadas INTJs are very different from INTP. They share no cognitive functions.

@nitramadas I'd say possibly. MBTI is a system we unjustifiably superimpose on reality. And so I think the way to judge what you're asking is to observe other people who are INTPs, rather than deduce it from pure theory. From my experience, I think being INTP gives you a better chance of being yellow. But it's not a guarantee. I've seen many INTP get trapped in orange, and in their autism they vehemently deny spirituality, and all femininity otherwise. But that said. I think "Ti" as a cognitive function makes one more likely to transcend orange and reach yellow. Compared to Te users who will triple and quadruple down on their autism as absolute metaphysical truth. (Te users aren't Ne users, and Ne users are the most open minded of any group. On average ofc) I can say this about myself. I jumped from orange to yellow very quickly, skipping green or having a green shadow. Because I've always been very philosophical and open minded. And then later, and now, I have to go back and look at green.

@PurpleTree I've been to a few of these things irl. In fact I still attend something weekly for a while now, but just online due to covid. I don't think it's a problem of the west as much as it's a problem with Buddhism. Many of the people in the groups tend to be bland and dogmatic. They spout a few basic dogmas as if they've discovered the Holy Grail. --- A normie is a normie, regardless of what outer garments they wear. --- In the west, Christian symbols became tiresome and meaningless. But now what's caught your eye is a foreign land with more symbols. But I think that the disillusionment with symbols has an importance and universality that transcends all cultures.

Asking what makes a good question is a good question. To ask a sincere and deep question, you have to admit in the first place that you don't know and are clueless. Even reaching this state of admittance is difficult with all our taken for granted filters and assumptions. And then you make the intention to investigate/observe/learn, as/after you empty your cup.

Spiral dynamics stages will correlate to your "level of consciousness" for various reasons, but they aren't the same thing. There isn't a simple arrow of causation here. So I would get it out your head that higher consciousness and spiral dynamics stages are the same thing. Ken Wilber himself explicitly differentiates spiral dynamics as a model for "growing up" as different from "waking up". There are some ancient models for waking up which I don't know much about.

Whether correct or incorrect, there's a perceived disconnect between the forum and Leo's youtube channel. So that could be part of it. Leo the YouTuber has over a million subs and gets thousands of views per vid. But on the forum, there are only a few hundred people. And only a subset of that is the most active.

@Moksha I don't meditate as regularly anymore or go into concentration states as much anymore. But I can definitely relate to the notion flux alters or slows down when you reach higher consciousness. I used to be obsessed with the question of time, am open to the idea it doesn't even exist. And the question has popped up again for me. To say any sort of word inside your head requires time, but if you're very much in the present moment you can in a sense not give it that time, and your mind becomes more quiet. When you're in the present moment enough, to a degree you can shoot down thoughts before they even happen like an archer.

@Preety_India Jordan Peterson has a very good lecture on agreeableness ; ) , a Big Five personality trait you're probably on the extreme end of I know you hate this guy but trust me some of his lectures are gold ?

I can vouch for this book, it's pretty good. I only read half of it but it's on my mind to re-read. --- I don't think this issue has to only be framed in terms of being nice vs not being nice. It's still about enforcing boundaries. But I think it can also be framed in terms of self-defence and effectiveness. The same way you defend yourself from a physical attack, you do the same to an emotional or psychological attack. You can be prepared to deal with the world whilst still being loving/trusting to it. Once you emanate the right energy of not being exploitable, you'll also get into less trouble since predators hunt for certain energy. Don't think you have to kill or repress a part of your authentic loving self to deal with psychos and narcs. Instead see it as trying to grow. Easier said than done ofc though.

This thread is fucking hilarious, keep the posts coming

[retracted post] this would be great for an INTP Examples Mega-Thread

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@Shin Shin you bastard, is this image supposed to be an ideological purity test? Of course I recognise that cartoon!

@IamMystic The traditional understanding of reality is that events unfold as intervals in this 1D continuous quantity called time. An interval/(line segment) contains an infinite number of points. And the present moment is conceptualised as a single point. Yet we know, everything is always now and we're always in the present. But conceptually speaking, it's confusing. A point is sizeless by definition. A snapshot of time is fixed, there's no leeway for movement or flux. Yet we experience flux, experience change as a lived reality.

@sholomar I get you. I don't like extreme social justice warriors either. A minority of people are far too spotlighted on social media. Sometimes politics makes me question what spiral dynamics is when I see these fools. I hope it's a minority of young people, you can't measure numbers online. With group think and authoritarianism, they use the magical powers of the tribe to silence individuals. I used to be very affable to them. I support the general direction they're trying to take things, since there's still prejudice and barriers for minorities in society to address, but they aren't folks who I like to be chummy with. I know I'm weak and I'm projecting. But every-time I see these people, all I see are weak and lame betas. Not too much better than the other side, although they push my buttons more than the other side. Because at least the other side is more straightforward to deal with.

Good luck! Just remember you always have the option to go slower.

@Eren Eeager Oh man, that's an even shorter half-life than sertraline ! That's very rough --- I don't know what most of the doctors say about how tapering anti-depressants should be done, but I found this guy on YouTube who had interesting opinions on it. Specifically in regard to how tapering should be done when you're down to a low dose. He essentially recommends that when at a low dose (like you being at 10mg or 20mg), you have to go extra slower at the end when tapering off. He says most doctors are looking at the wrong thing ( I forgot what, but something medical) for conceptually understanding it. He claims that at those low doses, small decreases in medication have a large impact on your withdrawal, his justification involving a graph like this. This is citalopram, the maximum dose being 60mg: ^in relation to what the above graph is showing, I don't understand it all myself ------------------------- I found this graph for the drug you're taking I'm guessing that in between 0 and 10 (of your blood concentration, not dose) is a sharp drop there, be careful. I don't know all this though, this is just something I'm guessing. The graph would be the same shape if you changed the x-axis to dosage. So go slowly when at the end, is my advice. Rather than what you did of dropping the last 20mg all in one go.

What SSRI you on? I'm on zoloft. I'm tapering down extremely slowly rn. My journey is far from ending, I'm sure the hard part is to come soon. My dose was 100mg and now I recently changed to 25mg after being on 50 for a very long time. In the past, I tried to leave the celexa medication cold turkey and failed. Severe vertigo and dizziness, yes. Brain zaps. And also, my muscles felt unbelievably weak to stand up and walk. So a fatigue there. It was absolutely wretched. I ended up going back on different anti depressants, zoloft, but now I'm tapering off again since July. Took me 4 months to go from 100mg to just starting 25mg now. What's worked for me is very slow decrease. And doing whatever else possible to worm your way through. Exercise, meditation, eating vegetables, these things give a little baby step to make the process a little easier. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are benefits to quitting, maybe there already are some going on for you. I'm more in touch with my emotions now.

@Chimera I'm gonna sidestep talking about whether ego is important is not. And instead try and give pointers about how to generally manage the paradoxes going on. --- The problem I've found with suppressing and denying feelings is that it's denying reality. Denying the truth of what's in your direct consciousness is a central part of that pattern. You should always want to be on the side of examining your experience as it is. Ignore what books and other people say (and have programmed you with, so self-deception is your biggest enemy) about how you should see your experience. The more powerfully you relate to your direct experience, the more powerful you become. ---- Okay but here's where it gets nuanced. It is possible to be in touch with the truth of your experience whilst being determined and fixed on achieving some goal. It's difficult because when trying to reach some goal or do some process, we superimpose ideals on experience, and the ideals distort your perception of what your experience actually is. Hence all the suffering, beating yourself up, etc. So. Be fully accepting and fully observant of your experience as it is. And if you're aiming to and trying to force yourself to do something, take every forceful step as consciously as you can . You'll find that you relax unnecessary muscles. --- Due to me projecting myself onto you, I'm gonna elaborate a bit more on the last point about my discovery of it. After a long time of denying and suppressing my feelings, I heard these eastern ideas of acceptance of the present moment. I heard and believed in an attitude of "don't try". But here's the thing. People's automatic behaviour, your current way of being, it will remain the same unless you do something. Trying to be more conscious and more mindful and more accepting, that's a deviation from our automatic behaviour. So you have to try and break the automatic. And that will require "forcefulness" without denying anything at all about the truth of your experience, and it's hard.

If you've ever meditated, you might feel that your emotions and mood are the result of you unconsciously processing sensations and feelings which have physical locations in your body. When I'm meditating and noticing the feelings which cause my low mood, I can feel the source of my emotions and feelings to be in my (stomach)/(mid torso). For the past two days, whenever I've been mindful of these sensations which control my negative mood, I've almost vomited. My body will involuntarily activate the my gag reflux and the muscles which contract during vomiting will contract but I won't actually vomit. I could feel food/liquid rising to the top of my throat. This was felt to be very specifically triggered by me directing my attention towards the feelings in my stomach. This only happens to me during meditation, my attempts to be mindful of my emotions outside of meditation do not induce the same effect. Has anyone had any similar experiences? What could be the cause of this? Is my body recoiling from having to face the "negative" feelings which I unconsciously carry?

@Carl-Richard As well as being preferences, the functions are also kinda like intelligences imo. With each function having a different type of intelligence you could say. But that said, I'm not sure about the mindfulness thing. I try not to make strong claims about it. But that said. Se users often have an advantage in sport due to "being in tune with the present moment" and having control over their bodies. But I wouldn't be justified in then jumping to saying Se users have an advantage in all facets of mindfulness and consciousness and etc, because that isn't true. Your "degree of enlightenment" can be quite apart from your personality. And it might not be that Se users are strictly "more in tune with the present moment" but that they hold a very particular kind of relationship with the present moment that, due to lack of better words, we imprecisely describe as "being in the present moment". Se users are a tautological reference point for what being in the present moment means to most people, which isn't necessarily good. But there is some truth to it. Imo, enlightenment does and doesn't change your personality at the same time ( What I'm saying in this post isn't important at all for becoming enlightenment, this is just random side talk, want to clarify. This is just opinions). A tree is a tree, before and after enlightenment. Your psychology is your psychology, before and after enlightenment (well it is the same , but not the same at the same time; it's the troupe in stories of the hero's journey coming full circle. You arrive in the same place you started, but something has changed.) You can't aim to go in a circle. You have to aim to go forward and change yourself, and by happenstance you do a circle of sorts.

An old thread of mine got revived, how pleasant! The synchronicity is pretty funny because for the first time after taking vitamin supplements like I always do, I'm feeling a lot of pain in my stomach. @HollyV I can't remember how I dealt with the vomiting thing with meditation. For whatever reason it eventually went away for me. The advice all here is good. Approaching this from a few levels, physical and spiritual.