Forestluv

I’d be wary of a “higher self”. It’s so easy for sneaky egos to hideout in a “higher self” concept. The awakening is the realization that the “person” has no free will. There is no choice. There is no chooser. It’s can be excruciating for the self to surrender to. It’s also deeply liberating. It’s been among my most profound awakenings

@CreamCat I think you have a lot of seeking energy within the timeline. What wevtruly seek is to come back home to this moment. To be whole in this monent. It’s not to be found in the timeline - not past or future. You will never arrive there, because there doesn't exist. What you truly seek is here and now. You can only wake up now. To whatever is hapoening now. We are on a journey to where we have already arrived.

@Joseph Maynor Great contemplative questions! #9 kinda freaks me out when I contemplate it because it can feel so real. I can get to a mind state where I really don’t know if I’m the only person in the world. Then, I experience a mind state where I am alone as the only real person. Once I get there, I can go in different directions. I usually end up in a scary place. Sometimes I can have a hard time getting out of it and can go into trip-like states. It’s the only contemplative I’ve done that has that effect on me. I think it would make a great premise for a movie.

@CreamCat I would be mindful of chasing an elusive idea of enlightenment. Deepen your practice. Raise your consciousness.

That’s cool you just wrote that. I recently started conversing with with a gal who seems highly evolved. I tend to explore existential questions and metaphysics for itself - through my own self inquiry, contemplation and direct experience. I watch some videos -to integrate into my framework and to stimulate new ideas and experience. I’ve noticed this gal is very outward oriented. She keeps citing some philosopher, someone’s theory, this and that yogi, some Buddhist whatever. I like a bit of that, yet it can be too much. I guess I was like that for a long time, yet a couple years ago the outward seeking energy dissolved. I’m more interested in learning from within. That which arises from inner stillness is our greatest teacher.

@Joseph Maynor I think your ideas work well in debate-style environments to keep order. Roberts Rules of Order type of thing. As you said, egos can get out of control. Yet, when the conscious level of conversation elevates it becomes more about exploring ideas than being right. Here, the need to control for order lessens. For example, Emerald and I have different perspectives on gender - because we have different life histories. Conversations with her are about exploring and learning -not about being right or proving points. The conversations naturally flow and there isn’t a need for rules to control for order. IMO debate-style conversations are not conducive for learning and raising consciousness. At best, they are neutral to slightly beneficial. At worst, they are counter-productive. I’m in favor of encouraging exploration.

@electroBeam Very nice insight. Thank you. My usage of evolution is more provincial, yours is more holistic. It’s easy to assume that western culture is the most advanced and we are entering uncharted territory. Yet, as you state, pockets of societies may have touched upon high conscious levels . I lived with a tribe in the mountains of Peru for a bit - the community was at a very high conscious level. As mainstream western culture evolves, we can learn from other higher evolved cultures. It would be ignorant and arrogant to assume we are the highest evolved culture and are breaking all new territory. I will update the post. Thanks for improving it.

You are walking through a door to higher levels of spirituality. For me, ceratain realizations were really uncomfortable and at times I felt like I was going to spiral into an abyss. Yet it is also is very liberating. I would pursue learning about free will from awakened beings such as Rupert Spira, Adyashanti, Eckart Tolle and Lisa Cairns. They have plenty of videos on guiding people through this realization. I would avoid lower level philosophy that leads to nihilism. You are just waking up to a truth. For me, waking up to this truth stirred up a lot of anxiety. I was afraid that if I wasn’t really in control, all hell could break loose. Then I realized that it’s been this way my whole life and I’ve been been fine. No worries. Just keep advancing upwards. You will eventually realize you were drinking gutter water in your delusional state. Life will become more free and beautiful than you can imagine.

@Joseph Maynor An Orange level rationalist will assume a that there pre-rational view is higher order understanding - they have not transcended rationalism. I see this on the forum with ideas of nothingness, everything, emptiness, absolute infinity, you were never born etc. Some will believe they are at a Yellow stage. Once a person is Yellow, it becomes obvious. The person is using a handsaw and telling people it’s a chainsaw. Once you know what a chainsaw is, it’s easy to spot handsaws. @SFRL Rational nonsense can be irritating. Keep in mind that some are genuinely trying to evolve upward and we are here to help them. Calling all rationalists idiots isn’t helpful. And some rationalists aren’t complete idiots. Richard Dawkins is a brilliant geneticist, he’s just an idiot with spirituality. ? @Jack River One thing that helped me was when Leo challenged my belief of what intelligence is. And he didn’t accept a rational answer. I’d recommend contemplating “what is intelligence”? The rational and trans-rational views are quite different.

@The Don Nice. Authentic is good too

This video is high Orange with a little bit of low yellow. He mistates moral relativism (green) and systems thinking (yellow). He doesn’t seem skilled at post-rational thought He mentions psychedelics, yet I don’t get the sense he has integrated his experiences. SD breaks down at Turquoise, and he didn’t acknowledge nonduality, and the loss of distinctions - language and concepts no longer make sense. He keeps mentioning some product - he is trying to sell?

@Setty If JP resonates with you - go for it. I encourage you to outgrow JP. That may seem inconceivable now, but you can do it. Sam Harris was my primary teacher for a long time. He is so brilliant, I couldn’t imagine reaching his level. Then one day I became aware that I had surpassed Harris. I could see more holistically. It was like I was watching a child learn how to ride a bicycle. It’s an amazing perspective. I watched a video of a 13 year old kid at Yellow stage. Two levels higher than JP. Society is advancing faster and faster. . .

Both Red and Orange are motivated to fulfill personal desires. Irange is just more sophisticated. Red might cut an adversaries fingers off, Orange might slander an adversary.

When you advance higher, you do not reject lower level aspects - they become more sophisticated. Think of a spiral staircase. Green spirals around over Blue. Both Green and Blue value community - yet Green connunity is more sophisticated than Blue community. Similarly, Yellow spirals over Orange. A hallmark of Orange is rational thinking. A yellow individual doesn’t think “I need to work on my rational thinking, I better drop back down to Orange so I can work on it”. No. A yellow person maintains the ability to think rationally - but now it is more sophisticated. A yellow would integrate rational thought with relativism and systems thinking. Also, a meta view of SD is yellow systems thinking. Don’t assume all yellow level thinkers will think the same. Just like two Orange level scientists won’t necessarily think the same.

@Setty SD is just a model. It has it’s uses and it’s limitations. You can cherry pick JP. Why did you leave out his position in things like postmodernism and LGBTQ? JP is weighed down by Blue and Orange. Just like Richard Dawkins is weighed down in Orange. I had let go of 20 years of scientific study to evolve higher. It aint easy, but it is sooo liberating. Once you advance up to Green and Yellow you will look back and think “Why on earth did I hold on to blue/orange?”

Because my mind is imaginative and likes to wonder about things.

Yea, I think about stuff. I'm not sure what you are asking.

Think about what?

From a dual perspective, the deeper I go - the more alone I feel. There are less people I can share the deep insights with. They just can't relate.

There are healthy expressions of blue. For example: a military soldier that sacrifices himself to help his wounded comrade. Another way to look at it: Is a dinosaur *better* than a modern deer? No, dinosaurs had their time and place and became extinct. Now deer have their time and place. Eventually, they will go extinct. Similarly, Blue had it's time and place (e.g. The Roman Empire). Now, it's going extinct. The liberals of today will be the conservatives of the future. My students cringe when I say "Marriage is only between a Man and a Woman". That is a conservative view (that is becoming extinct). The progressive view is open to same-sex marriage, transgender couples etc. Now I tell my students to imagine themselves 60 years from now when their grandchildren want the freedom to date and marry Androids. Again, the students cringe! They don't like the idea of humans marrying Androids. In the future, "Marriage is only between two Human Beings" will be the conservative position. They are cool with straight and LGBTQ relationships, but not human-android relationships. They are progressives for today, conservatives for tomorrow.

Guy's, c'mon. . . There is a difference between open-minded questioning and a closed-minded strike. For example: "Can someone explain to me what Leo means when he says "I am God"? I am questioning the meaning of God that I was told in my church during my childhood" VS. "Leo said "I am God"!!!!!! How delusional!!!!! He is a cult leader!!!!!!" Let's stop conflating the two. We highly encourage self inquiry.

There is no more "wrong" about conceptualization than about birds chirping. Conceptualization is loads of fun. I love it! I also like attending concerts and football games. It's all fun stuff. Yet, at the end of the day - it's just conceptualization. I have experienced a level deeper than conceptualization - where all language and concepts break down. Once I returned to the conceptual world, I could see concepts from another perspective - they are just concepts. If I get attached to concepts and identify with concepts - *then* I become more delusional and my spiritual progress slows down. The highest value I see for concepts is as a framework to support direct experience. Years ago, if I had a mystical experience, I blew it off as "whoo whoo" because I didn't have the conceptual framework to support integration. More recently, when I've had mystical experiences - I return and think "Ahhhhh, so *that's* what Adyashanti was trying to explain. I *get* it now". I no longer blow it off as "whoo whoo". And everything I wrote above are just concepts. It aint IT. Fun stuff

That is a lot closer to the experience than how I explained it. So, you'll prolly get this part. . . After suffering in terror for a while, duality collapsed. The terror was just terror. Like a turnip is just a turnip. It wasn't good or bad. There were no distinctions. It was like the terror was no different than the color pink or an ant crawling around. It just was. Mind-blowing stuff? Where did you do Aya? I did an Aya retreat in Peru - summer 2017.

Somewhat similar for me. I grew up in a Catholic home and got involved with Buddhism when I left my home. Consider that what you may be consider "healthy Blue values" are actually at an Orange and Green level. For example, rational views of laws are Orange. Blue values community and so does Green. Yet, Blue's "community" is restricted to their tribe (e.g. white Christians). Green's community is much more expansive and inclusive - whites, minorities, christians, jews, buddhists, LGBTQ etc. Purple level community = a small isolated tribe Blue level community = "their people" - e.g white christians Green level community = multicultural, all people Turquoise level community = all of reality "Community" is not a value for any level. How community is valued and expressed varies among levels.

Not really. Have you ever done Ayahuasca? You can't really conceptualize it like that because it is post-conceptual. Even my story of it is not it - because I am trying to put it into language. It is just a story my mind created to try and relate the experience. All language and concepts broke down. I don't know how else to explain it tho. It might be closer to say - if I mix ammonia and bleach it will become highly toxic.