Forestluv

This seems like a Tier 2 perspective. If I drop down to Tier 1 Green it can feel like losing because the progress doesn't look like how I think progress "should" look like.

This is great stuff about evolving toward Orange and Green levels. I would just be careful about getting to bogged down. I would have gotten overwhelmed with all of that. . . I grew up in a predominately Blue environment. Very Catholic, authoritarian. Lots of respect for rules and laws. One lives their life for an anthropomorphic God to gain access to an afterlife in heaven. In general, the keys to transition from Blue to Orange: 1. Things are not always "Black or White", "Good" or "Bad". There are shades of gray. There are spectrums. I.e. it is not always "bad" to break the law. Some laws are nonsense and, at times, it is actually "good" to break the law. . . People are not all "good" or "bad" - they are complex mixtures. 2. To challenge beliefs and start looking at things rationally and reasonably. . . Hmmm, maybe everything in the Bible is not literally true. Maybe the Noah's Arc thing is more poetic than literal. Maybe there is both "good" and "bad" stuff in the Bible. Maybe there are good lessons within all religions. 3. Personal development. Who am I? What do *I* value? How can I establish my own ethical framework? What does personal development look like for *me*? What are my personal goals and what steps can I take to achieve them?

Yes, I was trained as a scientist and I still teach science courses. The process of transcending science was quite bumpy at times - yet totally worth it. The holistic view is so beautiful. I like your analogy to waking up to religion. It was a similar process for me as well.

@Annoynymous I'd say karma is conditioning of the mind-body.

@electroBeam IME, psychedelics remove "The Story". The conditioning. It is waking up from one delusional state and entering another delusional state. The power for me is the awareness of the delusional sober self state. What the self does with that awareness is not the point for me. It's the realization of the dream. It is the awareness of the person. Imagine you are dreaming and your dream character is "Paul". Paul wants to awaken and spends lots of time meditating in the dream. He watches lots of Mooji and Sadghuru videos. He spends lots of time on the actualized.org forum. . . Can Paul awaken as Paul? . . . No. It is a higher consciousness that becomes aware of itself. Everything within the dream is within a higher consciousness. . . . Suppose Paul ingests a substance that stimulates you to wake up temporarily. You realize everything within the dream is within a higher consciousness (the real you). . . You fall back asleep and Paul returns. Does it really matter if this realization stimulates Paul to meditate more within the dream? Does it really matter if the realization stimulates Paul to start Yoga and get physically healthy within the dream? . . . I would say no. The BIG thing is that there is a higher consciousness that is now aware of the dream. Whatever Paul does, there is awareness that it's all within a dream. And not in a philosophical way. In a very real way. Psychedelics offer this awakening. And it is extremely extremely powerful.

@Charlotte It sounds like your transcendence of science is maturing. During my maturation, my interest in science declined. I no longer "believed" it like I used to. As my post-science consciousness stabilized, I began seeing science as a wonderful tool that is integrated with art, philosophy, history, poetry etc. Science became part of a holistic view. I started getting curious again - yet this is a more mature curiosity. Once a person transcends rational thought and science, I can't imagine how one can return. It's like spending your whole life immersed in a town. Then, one day you climb to a mountain top and see the city from a very different perspective. It is a meta view. You see how your town is interconnected to the environment and other towns. You can return to your town, yet you can't unsee what you saw. It will always be part of your more holistic view.

That is a wonderfully juicy self inquiry question. I'm unable to offer a post-rational definition. Yet I can say my view of intelligence was based on logic / reason. My transition to post-rational understanding involved direct experience with intellectual, emotional, social, creative, intuitive and empathetic forms of intelligence. Then, these distinctions began to dissolve. As well, I contemplated and had experience with the source of intelligence. I.e. From where does intelligence arise?

As a psychedelic newbie, I felt the need trip in my familiar home. Once I reached intermediate levels of experience, I began walking outside - in my neighborhood and in nature. Just observing everyday stuff. I got a lot out of that too.

That depends on your definition of "smart". I would say transcending the self expands intelligence.

Yes. I have experienced it as well. The space can be scary, yet it can also be liberating and beautiful. Part of the anxiety for my self when entering this space is that my self no longer gets to choose the experience - it no longer gets to steer the car. My self is scared of the unknown. This space is unfamiliar and it lacks control. What then am I surrendering control to? What if I give control to some dark energy? What if harm results? . . . What I've found is that the space is not unsafe and harmful - it's ok to surrender into it.

@Annoynymous Yes, one can let go of ideology and take a meta view. It can be tricky though. I often get pulled into a Green level of consciousness in this area.

It's an acquired taste through direct experience. There is an energetic shift from a self orientation to a direct being orientation. The self will rebel - it's a total loss for the self. An awakening experience is quite simple - yet it is unpalatable to the self. Selfs don't awaken because they don't want to awaken. They want to control the narrative. A self wants to be relevant. It wants a story, beliefs, opinions. It wants to seek through conversation, debate, books, religions, spirituality, retreats, ashrams etc. Yet, it is always zero steps from enlightenment. It is eternally present now. It will never be found in the timeline. Never to be found outside of here and now.

Sounds like a nice glimpse into the illusory self. This type of direct experience is quite profound.

@Emerald I have a similar view. I also think that fear of socialism and demonizing opponents as scary socialists played a role. I hope more people will become aware that modern "Green level" socialism differs from old "Blue level" socialism / communism. Surveys indicate the millennial generation in the U.S. is more open to progressive socialism, similar to that in parts of Europe like Scandinavia. I like how Leo talked about the two levels of socialism in his SD series.

Everyone be mindful that political activism and propaganda is against forum guidelines. If the thread devolves in that direction it will likely get locked. Elections can be reflective of consciousness levels of society. I find them interesting in terms of wordviews wtihin a SD framework. In particular, several more states have legalized medical and recreational use of marijuana. This would have been unheard of 30 years ago when marijuana was highly stigmatized. In the next 20 years, we will likely see "medical psychedelics" on ballot initiatives. Regarding the House of Representatives (which reflect local elections) - this was the most diverse group ever elected in the U.S. For the first time, there will be over 100 women in the house (many of those women of color and LGBTQ). The first Muslim women and the first two Native American women were elected. The first openly-gay governor was elected in Colorado. This House elections are a victory for the Green level of SD - they value inclusiveness, especially for individuals that have been marginalized or ostracized. In terms of SD, there are still large areas centered in Red, Blue and lower Orange. Trump fires up Red / Blue with his aggressiveness, nationalism and "us vs. them" rhetoric. Lower Orange may be somewhat turned off, but a relatively strong economy satiated Orange. Upper Orange is turned off by Trump and Green and above is repulsed by Trump. This is not to say Green and above will resonate with the "opposite" party (democrats). There are plenty of Orange-centered democrats that are motivated by personal gain and capitalism - which will turn off Green and above.

@ZZZZ I'd say it's relative to the individual - yet some generalizations can be made. We can say that a chainsaw is more powerful than a handsaw. In the hands of a novice, a chainsaw can cause more harm to the user than a handsaw. Similarly, psychedelics are more powerful than weed - yet in the hands of a novice, psychedelics can cause harm to the user. Asking what each substance is "meant" for is about as subjective as you can get. It's relative to the user. Humans are constantly trying to alter our physiology and mind state: shopping, eating, running, watching movies, having sex, reading, walks in nature, yoga, psychedelics, alcohol, meditation etc. What are each of these "meant" for? Entertainment? Escape? Spirituality? Personal improvement? It depends on the user. Trying new things and direct experience is key. Try it out a few times. Does it work for you? Do you need to fine tune it? What are your intentions and motivations? Does it help you progress? Are you becoming dependent? Etc. When deciding which to try, I would consider both personal patterns and public information. A person with a past history of drug dependence may decide to try psychedelics (low dependency risk / high spiritual reward) over weed (high dependency risk / low spiritual reward). Do research.

@gilded_honour Why would someone place Truth higher than security and comfort?

Hmmm. I question whether the appearance of such a thought would strip someone of their awakened credentials. . .

Indeed. And many people avoid it. I've found there are times I must put Truth above security and comfort to continue on.

@Dean Walker This sounds like a transitional stage in which immature spirituality is maturing. IME, I can't return to earlier stages - even if I tried.

@lmfao Letting go of delusions that gave my self security and comfort has been one of the challenges for my self.

The persona appears and disappears - similar to dreams, football games, clouds and bird chirps. The identification with the persona dissolves. It's just some character - like a movie character. IME, the persona comes in handy when interacting with other personas. For example, sometimes a coworker will ask me "What is your opinion on this matter?". My mind-body may sit in a daze for a bit and then it kicks in. . . "Oh yes, I need to play a character to interact with their character. And my character needs to form an 'opinion'". . . Another time, I was sharing stories with a coworker of childhood micro traumas. There was no persona identified with the story - it was like stories of movie characters. She started crying and I remembered that a persona identifies with stories and tries to avoid uncomfortable feelings. I was then able to ask her persona if it would like to change the topic. . . It can be awkward at times.

Heeeeeey . . . I wouldn't put you on a red eye with a layover. Direct flight during the day. I have plenty of miles with SW that I like to gift for special occasions. And I could pick you up at the airport. I travel a lot. It's all part of the adventure.

There are direct flights from Vegas -> Detroit on Southwest. I can get a RT ticket for about $100 worth of miles. I'd gift it to you if there is interest in the Detroit area.

@Shadowraix Sounds good. . . They would also have an infinite number of qualities between ugly and beautiful. Before the interpretation, there just is. A mind can add on whatever. . .