Forestluv

Be careful seeking refuge within nonduality. During initial immature stages of nonduality it's common to embrace nonduality and reject duality. Yet with more maturity, there is an integration between the nondual and dual. This thread has a few newbies misusing the absolute level.

Observe how you are using relativism/absolutism. You are using it at a Tier1 level and saying that each level is merely relative to that level. You then you add in absolutism by saying each relative level is equivalent. That is a misuse of relativism/absolutism. For example, Yellow cognition utilizes integrative and systemic thinking and is at a much higher level than Blue level binary thinking. Blue is limited to binary thinking while Yellow can utilize binary thinking AND rational, logical, integrative, relative and systemic thinking. To suggest they are on relative equal planes is nonsense. Imagine an alcoholic that has lost his job and beats his wife and kids. The wife tells him "I think you have a drinking problem and are harming the family". The alcoholic responds "Well, that is just your relative perspective. My relative perspective is that I am a wonderful father and everything is fine. Both of our perspectives are relative and there is no value difference". That is a twisted and absurd use of relativism. A key to relativism and absolutism is that they are trans-personal. This is an enormous jump in consciousness. You are using the concepts at a personal level to rationalize false equivalencies. It's a form of an Orange level "both sides do it" argument. It is allowed in the context of actualization, consciousness, Spiral Dynamics etc. It is not allowed in the context of propagandizing.

That is a Blue/Orange perspective looking up at Green. That doesn't sound like an accurate description. Green is much healthier than Orange. It's not a "necessary evil". That would be like saying "romantic relationships based on love, emotional connection, mutual support and heart-to-heart communication has it's limitations, however it is a necessary stage that we will eventually grow out of". This statement is nonsense when one considers that Orange relationships are much more self-centered and involve much more conflict. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like an Orange-level biased and inaccurate portrayal of Spiral Dynamics. If you are interested in that perspective, go for it. I wouldn't read it. Have you watched Leo's series on SD and seen the mega-thread examples? These are at a much higher level and have tons of historical and political examples.

There are different expressions of Yellow. I can see a yellow-level thinker phrasing it in terms of "advantages". It's just not my form of expression. The term has some underlying logic associated with it. For example, imagine having a genuine crush on a gal. It is a pure, genuine, innocent liking. You just want to be with her and do whatever, as long as you are together. On the way to her house, a desire arises within you to bring her her favorite ice cream, so you stop at the parlor to get a scoop to go. The motivation has nothing to do with "advantages". The person isn't thinking "If I get her some ice cream, she will think I am a thoughtful guy and that will give me an advantage over other guys and improve my chances to get in her pants". Tier 2 motivation is before all that. It is much closer to the source. Yet, I'm fusing in some Turquoise here and I can see how a pure Yellow-perspective could use a framework of advantages - it just wouldn't be for a personal advantage. It would be more along the lines of social engineering advantages. I would agree on the absolute level, since in the absolute relative value collapses. Yet this is a Tier2 level interpretation that nothing is intrinsically valuable. If someone in Tier1 was using that phrase in a relative context to gain leverage in their argument, I would disagree. I would use extreme caution when using the absolute in a relative sense, it can cause a lot of harm at the human level. That statement would have very different meaning depending on whether it arose from an Orange or Yellow level. From an Orange perspective, that statement could be used to protect one's own perspective and neutralize higher evolved perspectives. Even Yellow can assign more value to certain perspectives. It's not until Turquoise until value/validity constructs collapse. Again, be careful about using the absolute on the relative human level. This can cause a lot of confusion and harm. For example, in the absolute, there is no separate distinction from a wealthy dictator and the poor people he tortures. Yet should we throw our hands up and say "Well there is no value difference here. Let's just move along. . . " On the relative level, I would assign value and support actions that stop the mal-treatment of humans. At the absolute level, there is absolute love for both the dictator and those he tortures. It's really important how one uses the statement "there is no value/validity difference" along the spiral. Turquoise ventures into nonverbal post-reason areas. It is three levels higher than logic/reason based Orange level thinking. Turquoise is incomprehensible to Orange. I would say Yellow is the big jump that sees much deeper and nuanced aspects of complexity. Turquoise has a much better understanding of distinctions. Turquoise can also allow distinctions to dissolve and can see deeper levels of simplicity and singularity. Overall, you raise some great questions and thoughts. I've enjoyed the conversation.

@Eric Tarpall I think it is easier for the mind to get direct experience with one "everything" than nothing. Look around your room and imagine there is one everything. Now pick up a thing that is not everything. A pen? Nope. A chair? Nope. A thought? Nope. So, there is no thing. Your question about connectivity assumes a concept of connectivity you will need to let go of to have direct experience as one everything.

I think there is a balance between seeking enlightenment and forming expectations about what enlightenment is like. I notice many people getting immersed into an enlightenment story that may never end. Consider Leo's 10 Ox video. Once you get a good look at the Ox, can you ever "unsee" it? Well, no. Yet, can a mind-body get distracted and become re-immersed in it's self? Well, yea. With that said, a good look at the Ox is extremely powerful and can fundamentally alter the orientation and experience of a mind-body. Yet, there is still more development after seeing the Ox. That is like stage 4 of 10. Imagine you are a child that is curious what an electrical outlet does. So you stick your finger in the outlet and electrocute yourself. Is that realization and direct experience permanent? Sort of. It depends how you look at it.

I did my best trying to form analogies with your concerns - that's why I wrote "seems to suggest". Your second question is a very good existential question. When a mind-body is yellow-centered there is understanding of relativism. Both moral relativism as well as deeper, broader relativism. Yet, yellow still lacks a full understanding / direct experience of the absolute/nonduality and has not yet begun Turquoise-level integration of nonduality with duality. So, yellow understands their own perspective is relative and they see some value in all perspectives and all spiral stages - yet can see more value in some perspectives than others. Yellow loves to integrate perspectives to form holistic perspectives. I find it difficult to answer in rational terms why raising the collective level is valuable. It's getting into post-rational tier 2 zones. The best I can do is to say that Tier 2 is not about self need desires. It's not about being right, looking good, winning arguments, getting my way etc. It is about exploring and experiencing the magnificence of life. There is a genuine desire that others experience and share in this magnificence. As a personal example, a few months ago I was laying with a lover and my mind-body was experiencing deep love and connection. It wasn't about me or her. We melted away. It was direct experience with a deep love that I wasn't aware even existed. I layed there wishing that everyone in the world could experience this. It was an extremely strong desire and it had nothing to do with my personal wants or needs. It was so powerful it motivated me to explore how I might learn to channel this deep love to others. Why did this desire arise? I don't know. It's not something I can explain in rational terms.

@outlandish I'm by no means an expert on DMN function and brain circuitry is interconnected - so there is no discrete DMN network independent of other brain activity. My understanding is that the DMN is necessary, yet insufficient, for a sense of self. Nearly all humans have a baseline level of self - we contextualize our lives relative to how it impacts our sense of self. There are different degrees of connectivity. Most people can temporarily step outside this self and observe the self, at least temporarily. For example, some people may focus on how their father harmed them and how their problems in life are due to their upbringing. Yet when guided, most people could see another point of view. For example, a psychologist may ask to consider things from the father's point of view. Perhaps the father grew up in an abusive house and his father abandoned him. Perhaps the father had children too young and was in over his head. Most people could pause and think "yea, I hadn't thought about it like that before". . . As well, most people are not self consumed all day. They may go hiking and lose their self in nature for a little while. The thought examples I gave were arising from DMN hyper-connectivity and activity. An extreme form of self immersion and self defensiveness. This could be expressed through narcissism or depression. Or, extreme goal setting and ambition. I would predict the Wolf of Wall Street guy had extreme DMN activity. My understanding is that the DMN is within a larger network for thinking. For example, abstract (non-self) thinking is centered outside the DMN. As well, the DMN may be reinforced through other brain areas such as the amygdala (a fear center). And hyper-DMN activity can inhibit other brain function and experience - such as the insular region associated with a sense of empathy. I'd love to see some brain scans on Trump. I'd predict a hyper-active DMN and amygdala and repressed insula. Below is a recent research article of psilocybin-based treatment for resistant-depression. Consistent with previous work, the brain scans indicated that during the psilocybin trip there was DMN disintegration, global integration and amygdala repression. After treatment, patients were categorized as responders and nonresponders. Amygdala repression was temporary and returned to normal activity. The DMN re-integrated in all patients, yet there were differences of DMN re-integration between responders and nonresponders. The authors hypothesized that complete DMN disintegration serves as a "reset" and allows the DMN to re-integrate in a healthier manner (I would add that post-treatment therapy during the re-integration is likely to be helpful). https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-13282-7

There are various forms of Yellow expression and there are various developmental lines along the spiral. In general, a couple core Yellow features are they have reached a trans-personal level of consciousness and the underlying motivational energy is no longer driven to satisfy personal needs. Yellow desires to pull people up the spiral, yet not for personal gain. Your rationale does not strike me as Yellow-centered because I don't sense it's fundamental motivational energy is to pull Orange people up the spiral into Green. If the source of the energy was to pull people up, for every concern you raised about the Orange to Green transition would naturally have solutions. Most of the energy would be focused on solutions to get Orange into Green and not focused on transition concerns. For example, imagine our primary goal is to help evolve people from understanding algebra to understanding calculus. We have two groups at different developmental levels: Group 1 - children that are currently taking an algebra course Group 2 - adults that have taken an algebra course and are currently taking a calculus course (or have completed a calculus course). If our primary goal is to help people evolve upward toward learning calculus - it's totally obvious Group 2 is better qualified. Group 1 is absolutely incapable of teaching others calculus. From a yellow perspective, we choose Group 2 as the teachers and do our best to help them become better teachers. You raise concerns about Group 2, yet seem oriented toward their flaws rather than how to utilize them the best we can to teach the community calculus. Some concerns you seem to suggest: 1. Some Group 2 people are arrogant and think they are superior than Group 1 algebra students. 2. Some Group 2 people think calculus is superior to algebra 3. Some Group 1 people don't want to learn calculus and shouldn't be legally forced to learn calculus. 4. Society should be balanced between people who know calculus and people who don't know calculus. 5. People should have the right of free speech to speak out against calculus. 6. Group 2 people haven't yet learned advanced calculus II 7. Group 2 people are not motivated to teach people advanced calculus II 8. There are things I don't like about calculus. With the primary objective to help people evolve upward in learning Calculus, none of these concerns would suggest a Group 1 teacher would be better. If we are oriented toward helping people evolve upward, we still choose Group 2 as our teachers and we address the concerns from a Yellow-level of consciousness to help develop them into more effective teachers. Remember, at the Yellow stage we are helping Green to transition to Yellow. I'd say about 20% of the energy should be about recognizing teaching inefficiencies and 80% of the energy in developing solutions to increase the teaching efficiency. My sense of your argument is that about 98% of the energy is focused on teaching inefficiencies and virtually nothing about how to address this to get Orange into Green. This suggests that your argument has not accepted the fundamental goal of evolving people through Green.

For me, self-inquiry is not effective if the mind is busy with thoughts. I only self-inquire when my mind reaches a deep state of relaxation. For me now, an hour of yin yoga + a couple puffs of indica weed is the best combination to reach deep states of relaxation and self-inquiry. Yet, my embodiment breakthrough on "genuine" came during a deeply relaxed state in a sensory deprivation tank.

If you want to return to a "no-self" conscious state, do practices that lead to a "no-self" conscious state. Any practice that you can observe the self dynamics in the mind and let go of attachments/identifications will be helpful. Imagine if you were a tennis player and wanted to observe yourself playing tennis. You would step outside of yourself and observe yourself playing tennis (on a video recording). Similarly, you can step outside of yourself and observe your thoughts.

@LoveandPurpose A great self-inquiry is "What is genuine?". I've found direct experience insights that arise from the inquiry to be much deeper and powerful than intellectual explanations.

For those of you interested in the DMN, it is a network of brain activity associated with repetitive self-referential thinking. It is thought to be hyper-active in certain mental states, such as depression. Repetitive self-referential thinking may include "Why does this always happen to me", "I will never get better", "If only my father didn't hurt me when I was younger". Such thoughts can essentially form a self-referential loop which is difficult to break free of to see the bigger picture or different perspectives. Psychologists face the challenge of uncoupling this loop during talk therapy. Brain scans indicate activities such as meditation, yoga and psychedelics can temporarily uncouple the DMN, allowing the possibility for post-egoic insights to arise. @Outer Thank you for that detailed info on EEG machines, it helps me get started.

When contextualizing direct experience, I usually don't give a lot of weight to visual hallucinations. The most profound insights for me are nonvisual. Yet imagery can be integrated with insights. For example, insights may arise with direct experience of synchronicity and then the image you posted may arise. I would be much more comfortable integrating those two together. I'd be less comfortable if a stand-alone image arose and making up a story about what means. Yet others do it all the time. For me, it often leads to stuff that doesn't hold up and turns out to be a distraction.

That is an assumption from an Orange perspective. Once you become Green-centered you will understand and embody a more evolved perspective.

That is true for each Tier 1 stage. I agree with you that a Tier 2 president is likely too advanced for the average social consciousness. In the U.S. the average collective consciousness is stage Orange. So, stage Yellow would be two full stages higher and the jump from Tier1 to Tier2 is enormous. That leaves us with the option of a Tier 1 president. It seems to me a healthy Green level president is more capable of leading the collective consciousness up the Spiral. If the average consciousness in the U.S. is Orange, how can a Blue or Orange level president help the country evolve up? That person hasn't even evolved passed Orange, they have no clue about Green and would likely demonize Green. If you were upper Orange and wanted to evolve upward, would you choose an Orange level teacher? Of course not. How on earth can an Orange teacher help you evolve to Green? They haven't developed to Green and likely have resistance and internal repression of Green. Ego backlash is a component of Spiral evolution - at both the individual and collective levels. As an individual, as a person evolves into Green there will be an ego backlash and they may resist and return to unhealthy Orange behaviors. Similarly at the collective level, as the collective moves up the Spiral, there will be backlash from the collective ego. This is a totally normal component of spiral evolution. The perspective you offer does not appear to be Yellow. In general, a primary motivation of Yellow is to help evolve the collective consciousness up the spiral. That does not seem to be a primary motivation for you. Much of what you write seems consistent with maintaining the status quo below Green.

@Pouya Since starting this thread, you could have started your own Kriya Yoga practice and even begun to notice benefits. The first three techniques are straight-forward. You have the resources you need to get started and find out if it resonates with you. You can empower yourself and take action today. What’s holding you back?

@Zizzero Why not vote for the highest conscious candidate?

You going all post-rational on us tonight? Or are the walls talking to you again? ?

@Tony 845 You are so ready. You’re gonna love it ?

I did one with Adyashanti. It’s a unique energy.

@cetus56 That’s crazy. Imagine that trippin’ ?

It has a great ending. I love the reaction of the bird on the left.

If you are closer to yellow than orange, a new form of ambition will arise. Orange motivation is need-based. Desires arise for the psychological self. Yellow and Turquoise is post-self. Ambition is not self need-based. The ambition is to explore and discover. To have direct experience of the magnificence of life. If you have repressed aspects of Orange, you may need to deconstruct and work through that. As well, there are several different developmental lines (cognitive, emotional, spiritual etc). You may be further evolved along some developmental lines. If one is centered at Green or Yellow along a developmental line, you don't regress. And who would want to? Orange is like drinking gutter water and Yellow/Turquoise is like drinking fresh spring water. Even Green is 10X better than Orange.