Emerald

This framework you're operating off of isn't true... and it's preventing you from connecting with women. Just look around the world and you will see that there are ordinary men and women who love each other and live their lives together. And even if you may not yourself be attracted to men, I hope you can understand me when I say that I am attracted to regular guys... as are most women. But this is clearly a framework that you want to hold onto. And you look around for people to validate it to make it true in your mind. So, I'm not going to be able to reason you out of it. So, I would ask you this question, "How are you trying to protect or serve yourself by holding onto the idea that women aren't interested in anyone but the highest status guys?" It would seem to me that you might be using this narrative to avoid relationships with women... or that you may be playing out the way your care-givers related to you as a child... or that it's a way to avoid trying to connect to keep yourself from rejection by not trying... or some other dynamic. If you'd like to let go of this unhelpful thought pattern, you have to exercise extreme self-honesty and figure out where it comes from in the first place and what function it serves for you.

Definitely. Lots of men will talk a lot about wanting to be with the most attractive women in the world. But they're not really that picky.

Definitely can be a repeat of childhood familial dynamics and traumas when those super intense limerance feelings come up.

That's true. I thought about that too. There can genuinely be guys that operate like "betas" in a negative way. But when it comes to this particular narrative of "Women screw around with the Chads until they hit the wall and lose all their value, and then have to quickly settle for the betas and get married to those low quality simps so they aren't alone with their cats forever."... usually the men they call betas in this narrative are just higher quality partners that are more mature. But because there's a whole narrative frames the fuck-boy as the desired option and the guy she ends up marrying as the non-desire option... it's like "women can only get the Chad when she's young and fertile and hasn't been fully "run through"... and once she's 30+ and rode the entire dick carousel and her pussy is loose because of all the Chads have big dicks and the Chads have rejected her for a younger model, she has to settle for weak cuckish simp boys who don't even have multiple women in their rotation." But from the female perspective, it's just a huge misread on what women genuinely value as an aggregate. And it assumes that we're like "The highlight of my life was fucking Chad when I was 21"... but now I have to settle for lame Jimmy who's a a low status guy who loves me and our kids and pays all his bills on time.

Well, the romcom fantasy is more like the Lover and Beloved dynamic. That's when the Lover awakes in a man towards an individual woman when he feels this way. And the Lover (when it awakes) makes the person who embodies it very vulnerable and attached to the Beloved. And the feelings are strong. The issue is that there's no guarantee that the Beloved will love him back. So, it can be a better strategy to cast the net wider as a man and shake that one-itis until there's more confirmation of interest... and to shake neediness. And pick-up is about deliberately using the Beloved Feminine frame to attract a broader swath of women that he doesn't feel too invested in. It teaches men to avoid awakening the Lover in themselves and to remain in the Beloved position to increase women's attraction to him through bringing up those really high/low Lover feelings in her. It's good for a guy who wants a lot of low investment lays. But it's not very good for truly establishing a longer term relationship. But I'm not saying that being more attractive in your appearance won't increase a woman's options. It certainly will increase her options and she can attract a more attractive guy. But the reason why I don't add that to my list is because it's better to show up exactly as you would normally show up in life... however that may be. Advertise your identity as it is, and let the men who aren't interested in that sort themselves from consideration. Your concern that there won't be anyone left attracted to her just isn't a concern that women have to deal with... unless she herself has unrealistic standards.

To be honest, it's occurred to me before that the men that many men call "betas" tend to be the highest quality partners and make the best fathers. It's just that a lot of men view a valuable man as a man who gets laid often... and they assume women share in these values. So, they believe that women are settling for less... when the women are just getting an upgrade. There's nothing sexier than a mature man. But women tend to grow out of this desire for these "alpha" party guys in VERY early adulthood (usually between 20 and 25). So, while men tend to view a valuable man as a man who can get laid easily, women view a valuable man as a man who is a good partner and father. And if she herself is mature, she will begin looking for a more mature partner. That's why I try to discourage a lot of these types of perspectives, because a lot of men on this forum are being influenced by other men to develop values that will keep them resistant to the "beta" qualities that mature women respond to. And they may end up alone longterm because of these values.

Well, women like to date up finances-wise. And men like to date up looks-wise. So both women and men date up and down... just along different spectrums of status. But it's important to note that these considerations are not based on any kind of objective measures of status. This is based purely on feelings. A man must feel somewhat more invested in the woman than she feels invested in him for the relationship to work out over the long-term. But lots of women make the mistake of searching out the really ambrosial feelings of Masculine Lover mode and go seeking for the high and low spikes of trying to woo and win over a low-investment man (regardless of whether he's a CEO or a free-loader she lets live on her couch). So, if you hear a woman gushing about a man she's just started dating... she's making a mistake. And it's a very common mistake. Hence the advice that most women make a few times until they know better.

There are 8 billion people on the planet... about 4 billion are men. There is no scarcity of options. And if you're monogamous, you literally only need one guy out of those 4 billion. Like, most women aren't interested in collecting a harem full of men. But focusing on looks is fine if that's part of your personality and identity. Lots of women (including myself to some degree) like to adorn themselves and peacock around a bit. But I don't recommend doing this specifically to attract a partner, as you want to be attracting that partner based on the way that you would normally show up in life. Do it only if it's part of your identity to do so. And if that involves doing hair, make-up, and dressing to the 9s... do that. Or if that involves jeans and a t-shirt a messy bun and no make-up, do that. You want to advertise as you are... as this will repel the wrong ones and attract the right ones. Ideally, you repel 90%+ because that narrows things down to only guys who are really interested in what you have going on. Just don't get too worried about attraction. Those that find you unattractive will sort themselves... and those that find you attractive will come closer like bees to flowers. Then, you can sort from there. So, women have to learn how to repel and sort, while men have to learn how to approach and attract. I think the confusion is that men are used to thinking about dating from a sense of needing to cast the net wide and to attract as many as possible using active strategies to make themselves more attractive. And there's a tendency to project that necessity onto women... especially because men are attracted to women. But women don't really need to maximize their appearance. In fact, it can kind of get in the way as attractive women attract a lot of spam attention. So, beautiful women need ESPECIALLY to learn how to sort as she can end up with a guy who only sees her as a status trophy. So, it's just a different strategy than you're used to.

I'm pretty sure it's just insecurity. I basically wrote a post recommending that women get better at sorting... and developing certain standards. And I didn't add "Be as attractive as possible" into my dating advice.... frankly because it's not great advice. So, it probably messed with his idea that the main power that women have is their attractiveness. Lots of men who feel disempowered relative to women, find relief in that idea that women's power is wrapped up solely in her ability to be attractive to men. And that's precisely because women's looks are not something that can be significantly changed (without plastic surgery). And looks always fade over time. It probably also bothered him that I mentioned that women don't need to focus on attraction because it happens automatically... because that is his pain point. And he has to work at attracting. So, he is saying these things to make me feel how my post and replies made him feel... like I'm less valuable and that men will never want to sleep with me because I am not attractive enough. And that's because that's what my post triggered in him.

Of course men want attractive women. It's just that men generally find lots of different types of women attractive.

The appearance of the women that a man is interested in doesn't say very much about his quality from the female perspective. Maybe his male friends might rib him about it if they're also really focused on sleeping with super attractive women and he sleeps with an average-looking woman. But women aren't really sorting on that basis unless they themselves are really wrapped up in some looks-based status game. So, when a man says things like "I'm only attracted to the hottest women" that registers to me as coming from either an insecurity and trying to seem "above it" in some way to try to make the woman feel insecure about her looks. Or it comes from a more shallow exploitative tendency more generally... like men who genuinely view women as commodities instead of as people. Either way, it's one of those red flags that I recommend women sort for... as it's a tell about how mature the man is and how safe he is to invite into her life.

In a relationship, of course. That's a very mutual dynamic. But in the courtship phase, it's really important to avoid over-functioning and over-giving.

Just to clarify a bit on that bit about being too cold. You could also over-sort. Lots of women run into this issue where they're operating only with their mind and they have a laundry-list of qualities that they want their partner to have. So, that's where you also end up getting disconnected from heart-centeredness... which doesn't work well as it applies something concrete and logical to something much more intuitive and nuanced. Like, it's good to have deal-breakers and boundaries and to sort for compatibility. But 80% of that information will come intuitively through human-to-human interaction and all the subtle micro-expressions and gestures he makes and in the sound of his voice.

This isn't something that needs to be thought about or orchestrated too much, but it can be good to keep in mind as a mechanism for sorting out men who aren't engaging you as a Lover and who just want access to low-investment girlfriend benefits from a woman he finds attractive but has no deeper love for. And the relationship will just go in the man as lover, woman as beloved dynamic naturally if it's a secure relationship and the woman has sorted well so as to avoid low-investment suitors... and the affections will even out quite a bit over time where there is oscillation between lover and beloved between both partners. It's just more polarized in the beginning. So, it's not so much that you'd need to stay in the Beloved role to make the guy stay there... though being in the Feminine Beloved mode in relation to him helps the bonding. Even highly invested men will eventually give up and be repelled if a woman can't connect to her Feminine around him. But this whole approach is very hands-off about what men do, as that is not within the scope of the woman's control. And any attempt to try to make him stay or commit, is just going into the Masculine and trying to control and manipulate. So, that is not a power that women possess. The power the women possess is the sorting of the wrong ones to open up space for the right ones. That's why developing sensitivity and discernment and to tuning deeply into your boundaries and feelings of disgust is really helpful as a woman... as you can sort better when your palate is more sensitive. So, the guy will stay if he wants to. And the guy will leave if he doesn't want to. The woman has no control over this. But if she stays in her Beloved during the courtship process and minds her boundaries and focuses on WHAT she wants in a relationship as a priority over WHO she wants in a relationship, then she will sort out the low investment guys who want to have the benefits of having a girlfriend without engaging in the heart-openness of Lover mode. But if you go into Masculine Lover mode as a woman during the courtship process, you will tend to try to keep an un-invested man sticking around when you should better sort him. And low-investment aloof men are operating in the Feminine toward the woman. So, this is what tends to awaken the Masculine Lover in the first place because she senses him as a goddess on a pedestal that she must impress and woo through attraction strategies, wearing make-up, sex, cooking for him, cleaning for him, nurturing him, and just giving to him. She becomes the Masculine Lover trying to win the Feminine Beloved's affections. But men are not swayed by this in the way that women are. A man can woo a woman... but a woman cannot woo a man. It's either there or it isn't for the man, and there is not way to control, manipulate, or persuade his feelings. So, if you stay in the frame of the Beloved during courtship... you just have to sort those guys from consideration because they'll either hang around and waste your time, or leave you, or cheat on you.

I think my post triggered up some insecurities in him... so I think he was trying to make me feel how my post made him feel by trying to convince me that men only sleep with the hottest women. But he picked the most unrealistic way to try to do that.

You're welcome. That's definitely a common pattern. And I think it's because we tend to learn about our own sexuality and dating dynamics through a male lens. So, we get hyper-focused on attraction... when that doesn't actually help us out with the skills we need to develop to sort.

This one is a difficult one to navigate... because open-hearted and inexperienced women tend to fall more quickly into the Masculine Lover role because it feels exciting and there's an illusion of having more control. The way that this one is sorted is to learn to take things slow at the outset of the relationship before jumping feet-first into it... and to learn not take those crushy feelings too seriously as some magical indicator of relationship fitness... and instead to get really realistic about where those feelings are actually coming from. And it's usually one of two place... The first is that it's a reactivation of childhood trauma and familial patterns. The second is that he's not reliable or predictable, so there is anxiety that is being perceived as desire, excitement, and longing. And neither of those tend to be an indicator of a good relationship to come. So, it's a matter of working through these patterns in general so that they have less of a pull... and learning to cultivate enough sensitivity to one's own boundaries to get bored and disenchanted with low investment. And it's also about becoming more sensitive to your own boundaries, so that you're naturally not so easily persuadable because of this or that or the other feeling that arises.

My advice on this is just to socialize with women... and people in general. Eventually, if you make a human-to-human connection a woman will reciprocate your feelings... and things can develop from there. Now, you can try pick-up. But I do recommend sorting for it because it's spammy attention. And there are better sources to pull from that are more intertwined in her social circle.

That's a good one too. If you can find like a context... like a book club or something like that, you can sort for guys who have similar interests. Though I probably wouldn't use dating apps if I should end up single ever again. I need to get a sense of what the rhythm of his personality is. That gives off a lot of information.

So, those men are weak because they were attracted to me? I think they're just heterosexual men and that that's what heterosexual men are wired up biologically to do. I'm an average woman... and the average woman is attractive in the eyes of the average man. But no one is saying what you have to do. You don't have to sleep with average women. If you want to go out and only have sex with 10s, then make merry about it. But weren't you the one saying that you were struggling to have any women attracted to you? Seems like you're so attached to that idea that you're not open to connecting with women who would like you.

This is pure fantasy. You can't kid me on this. I've lived almost 36 years as an average female human being. So, I know a bit about what men's standards are. And I have had SOOO many guys try to get me in bed. It happens all the time to women. I've also known plenty of women who are less attractive than I am that never had an issue attracting a good partner... let along getting laid down on a bed by some guy.

You're welcome! That's interesting because I also say something similar to that... that women die more often than men (for this very reason). So, we're better at dying than them.

That's definitely not the case for most men. Men actually aren't very picky with looks at all... especially the ones who make better romantic partners. Men like the idea of being with a very beautiful woman, of course. But they don't fall in love with looks. Also, take it from me. I'm a very average middle aged woman, and I've never had any issues with attracting and keeping the affection of my romantic partners. I've had hundred of men who've been interested in me in my life over the years. But definitely men have more room for improvement attraction-wise, because they need to develop themselves more to avoid being sorted and to establish a relationship with a woman. A guy can be a 10 in looks but come across totally ugly if he's got certain deficits. Or a guy can be a 5 in looks but through personality development, he can improve his way to being like 7. For women, we are as attractive as we are. We don't get any more attractive. But we don't need to improve our attractiveness to secure a good partner. We just need to get really good at sorting from the men who are interested... as the interest is already a foregone conclusion.

That's where you're wrong. Men need to focus on attracting women... as that is not a given. But women need to focus on sorting men as women already attract men just purely on the basis of being women. So, the task is to sort the wheat from the chaff, so that you're able to get together with a compatible man. And you'll especially want to sort guys from consideration who are only selecting you based on physical beauty.

You mentioned in an earlier thread a line that went something like 'what do I need to rape girls to get laid?' Given that that's twice that you're bringing up rape, please do not use this line of reasoning that you're entertaining in this thread to muddy the ethical waters for yourself to justify raping someone. In a court of law, these intellectual logic gymnastics will not work as a good defense.