Emerald

Eroticism is more heart-centered than it is genitalia-centered. And women are more motivated by eroticism than they are towards fucking.

You can share your perspective with me if you'd like. But if not, that's okay too.

That's the entire point I've been making. Women respond the most to who they have chemistry with... which is usually with regular average guys that they encounter in their daily lives. Honestly, if there isn't a significant amount of human-to-human chemistry, I wouldn't feel compelled towards anything sexual. And I think most women are the exact same way. It's honestly an uncommon kind of woman who goes out there seeking some short term hook-ups with hyper-Masculine "alpha" guys. I guess they exist. But that's a pretty abstract notion to me in terms of understanding the sexual appeal of it, as sexual appeal is so fundamentally intertwined with deeper feelings of intimacy, for me. And I find that men who have no softness to them are just about impossible to have chemistry with because a man needs to be a bit vulnerable for it to be possible to feel intimate with him.

Another video on the topic from my previous post, regarding what women find attractive vs what men think women find attractive.

You understand so little about the value of Femininity and creative expression.

He's saying that the thing that makes women bitter are not just the types of guys that abuse their power... but also the types of insecure guys that aspire to be the types of guys who abuse their power. And there's A LOT of men now-a-days who repel women because of all the internet propaganda that men are subjected to regarding male/female relationships and notions of what an attractive man is... as it's all about training a guy to be a low quality guy who appeals to the least discerning women. So, lots of women are choosing to be single to avoid dealing with brainwashed guys. Or they're getting bitter, because everything about all of this man-cult stuff is just annoying and desperate and causes harm to them. It's like the opposite of appealing and sexy. Just a bunch of guys in victims narrative because it's not fair that they aren't able to be Andrew Tate... and pissed off that women want Andrew Tate and not them. And then when women go "Ew! That guy looks like a rat." men are like... "Stop lying!" You can even observe, that most of the men on this forum are regular guys who aspire to be the type of anti-nutrient men who abuse and extract power. And that makes them even more repellent to most women than the guys who actually have power and abuse it... because it's the worst of both worlds. At least status-seeking or gold-digging women will tolerate the misogyny the powerful guy, as that's what's necessary to get the money and the status. But no average self-respecting woman will tolerate an average guy who's operating through these narratives because these men become impossible to experience intimacy with. Average men get brainwashed to not listen to women, so there is no intimacy where you can't be heard or seen. And men who operate through these propaganda narratives lose the ability to hear, see, and understand women. Hence, why I get so much pushback in this context, as I am pushing back on the brainwashing as the exact type of person that the brainwashers told you all not to listen to (a woman). Also, it's false to call these guys in these positions of power "high value" because they actually extract a lot more value than they provide. So, they have more power... but they have a net negative value-wise. That's why I think of them as anti-nutrient men.

I can certainly relate to what you've written. I'm in my mid-thirties as well, and there's a lot of things that change goals-wise and identity-wise during this time. This is true for me too despite the fact that I had marriage and family and all that other stuff since my early 20s. You can just conceptualize of the life-cycle because you're almost right in the middle. And that's very different as things feel much more time-bounded. And since you're considering embarking upon marriage and family and other more adult concerns for the first time, you probably feel like you're losing the meaningful narratives you were living before that were more geared towards the exploration of an expansive range of possibilities in terms of life paths and sexual paths. From reading your other post, your main resistance seems to relate to the loss of possibilities and narrowing down. There seems to be some fear around the trade-off of devoting yourself to one trajectory. And it also seems that the way you're used to conceptualizing of male attractiveness is something very tied to youth and expansion. And you're aging out of that phase of life and going into a more mature and contracted phase of life, where the paths get narrower but deeper and richer. And you don't yet know of the boons of the unfamiliar depths that can only be realized through maturing and aging. And those boons whisper rather than shout... which will take you some years to feel. What I would say on the swagger element of things is to explore what's attractive about being a mature stable 30-something man. Honestly, a mature stable man between the ages of 30 and 40 is probably considered the most attractive kind of guy. So, it's not like your swagger goes away. It just changes to a more mature form, which women are wired to respond better to anyway. But if there's a sense of fear of missing out on the ability to have hook--ups with lots of women, you want to actually explore the individual psychology of that... as opposed to just writing it off as male biology. There is a reason why you feel that way beyond just being turned on by sexual variety. And you should do your best to understand yourself and what emotional and psychological factors that make the loss of sexual variety and variety in general feel like such a hard death to die.

Do you have some issue with women wearing make-up? You seem to be getting very judgmental about it and really focusing on the idea that make-up covers things up. Even if hypothetically "covering things up" was the primary reason why women wear make-up and it weren't about self-expression at all, what would be so bad about that from your perspective?

The guy I responded to already said that, in his relationships, he was just settling for them and waiting until someone better comes along. And I was trying to figure out what he was getting out of them. Maybe sex. Maybe a salve for loneliness. Maybe a roommate to pay bills with. Maybe to show his parents that he's not single. Whatever was the boon for him, it just seems like it would be less of a hassle to just stay single until you find someone that you genuinely care about.

It doesn't contradict with what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that most women prefer men who aren't hyper-Masculine and who have a more average level of Masculinity. And most women are attracted to regular everyday guys that they happen to meet and have some chemistry with. And I'm also saying that most women aren't geared towards short-term hook-ups. So, while the minority of women who value short-term hook-ups might statistically go for these hyper-Masculine guys, that is abstract to me and most other women like me who don't even value or get much out of short term hook-ups. Also, it's not that women are interested in men who "chase" them. Chasing is desperate and needy, which is the opposite of the type of energy that women are looking for. So, that is a strawman of what I was communicating before. It's that I've observed that the most stable and fulfilling male/female relationship dynamic is one where both partners are highly invested in one another, but the man invests slightly more. Honestly, just look at this thread and you'll see TONS of low-investment men telling on themselves that they only settle in relationships until someone better comes along. So, women are wise to to avoid low investment guys who are settling out of convenience until someone better comes along... and to raise the bar a bit so that a man who's really interested has space to show her his level of investment.

I don't think you understand how make-up works. Make-up has coverage, sure. Like foundation can cover over an uneven skin tone or small blemishes. But unless the make-up is extreme... it is just an enhancement of what is already there, which is what she called it. Like, my daily make-up routine is just throwing on some reddish pink lipstick, filling in the sparse areas of my brows, and darkening my upper lash line a bit. I might put a bit of blush on if I'm feeling it. It's not really covering a whole lot... just enhancing what's already there. And even a full make-up look tends to just be an enhancement of what's there for most women. But painting on a canvas is a different type of expression compared to make-up and fashion, as the latter is about the embodiment of a certain persona.

Sure, identity is wrapped up in survival... and fashion choices are part of that. But for me, it's more about clearing the channel to express whatever happens to be there. Like, before I started dressing in the goth style when I was a teenager, I had a lot of blockages when it came to self-expression and confidence. I was just a nervous wreck. Then, when I started dressing that way, the style was so full of archetypes and art and music, that I could find outlets for expression and confidence that I didn't know before. And I felt so much more confident because I liked the way I looked. And it was through the conduit of my personal style at the time, that I found a lot of my untapped potential. And I was able to use that identity to develop my artistic skills when I was a teenager, as that also got woven into my identity. So, I wouldn't trivialize the importance of identity and personal style as it pertains to self-growth and self-discovery. Of course, when I was 20, I had my first experiences of ego transcendence. And I misunderstood them and tried to destroy my sense of identity all-together by resisting any identity drivers. But that just put me in a disempowered state, and I became really small and fell into a very narrow conception of myself where I tried to become a non-entity. And I abided in that identity-resistant state for about 5 or 6 years, feeling like I was painted into a corner, as I extracted the wrong lessons from those experiences. And after that I decided to tentatively re-integrate identity back into my life. And my relationship with life has been a lot better since then. So, I see a lot of potentials for channeling "harder-to-reach" parts of the self through creative expressions... including make-up and fashion. Like, in my most recent medicine journey, I encountered this really soft part of myself that has never had the right environmental and identity-based conduits to be integrated into my conscious expressions. So, I'd like to experiment a bit with exploring that softness through fashion and make-up and other forms of creative expression.

Yes, I did think that being goth made me more attractive. And I am motivated to dress for beauty. I mentioned as much in the posts above. And I was attracted to guys who had a similar style back then. And I knew my clothing style would attract a compatible man. That's one of the benefits of dressing in a niche style. What's your point? I never said that these weren't components of my drive to dress in a gothy way. I already said that I like to use dressing up to feel beautiful and more empowered.... as it makes the libidinal energy flow. And certainly there are both sexual and social components that factor into that. But the identity went beyond something relational and had to do more with how I feel and see myself when I have a certain appearance. It's just that, if I look a certain way, I feel like the best version of myself and that I'm really expressing myself fully. Still not sure what you're getting at here.

Because that was the case for you, it makes sense that you'd project that other people are doing the same thing as well. But I don't even see what a person could possibly get out of a relationship beyond just sex if they were just settling. And that seems like a lot of trouble to go through just to get sex.

Yes, many times with goth make-up. That used to be the way I dressed up every day for like 5+ years of my life. My go to was to do black lipstick and winged eye-liner with harlequin details... and to wear long flowing black skirts with a black and white patterned shirt with a vest or blazer over it. Or I'd dress more like the goth lolita fashion with lots of frills and puffy skirts. So, every day was dress-up. I wasn't casual about it. It was quite ornate.

Most of these guys issues that you're referring to as "not being Masculine enough" is just men responding to these limiting beliefs and propaganda narratives about women. It's normal for a man to be a bit nervous around a woman he's attracted to. But now-a-days, with all the internet propaganda that normal insecurity gets blended together with all these "you're a little bitch boy that women will never love" narratives. And what was before a surmountable insecurity becomes fuel to maintain these victim narratives and anti-social narratives that are being pedaled on the internet.

This is just another one of those anti-social internet victim narratives that men are propagandized with... which will lead to lots of unhappiness and loneliness. Best to avoid the victim's mentality and open yourself up to connection so that you don't end up missing out on the formative experiences of youth and with lots of regrets as you get older.

And when you were in these longterm relationships, were you just settling and sticking around until someone better comes along?

That's talking past the point that I'm actually making. The point that I'm making is that men are being indoctrinated into paradigms about women that are setting them up for guaranteed disconnection and loneliness in the future, as men with these paradigms won't be capable of being in an intimate relationship with a woman. And they're so locked into these anti-intimacy perspectives that they use for protection, that the reality of human-to-human can't seep in enough to allow for real connection and intimacy to come through.

Yes, I have actually. I used to do performance art when I was in college, and there were a few times where I did my make-up like a mime in my performance art. And I would do my make-up at my apartment and walk to the college in the mime get-up. And I have done my make-up in ways that I liked when I was a teenager that most people would not like. Though I genuinely enjoyed the look, most people would say that I looked worse than without it because it wasn't their cup of tea.

Make-up and fashion is also a hobby.

Sure, there are those moments too when you get into more comfortable clothes. But there's also a lot of fun in "playing dress-up". Like especially back in my goth days, I would just do up all my goth garb and hang around the house and listen to music and feel pretty. The style doesn't resonate with me much anymore because my tastes have changed over the years to more subtle styles, but I still occasionally like to play around with make-up and clothes and to feel elegant. No event necessary.

Sure, the gym can be done purely for health. So, I agree in that sense. But the more aesthetic drivers are similar... and can be done simply because it's a personal preference. Maybe a guy feels better when he's super jacked. And maybe a woman feels better when she's wearing make-up. And there's usually a social element... but also an identity and emotional element too that exists. But let's not pretend that make-up is super unhealthy and like make-up is going to murder your family just because you dislike Feminine hobbies.

Of course, I must be physically and sexually attracted to a man to consider him for a long-term relationship. That's why I said, attraction and long-term relationship desire for me (and many women) are one and the same. Like, I'd never be interested in having a longterm relationship with a man I'm not attracted to. But if I'm attracted to a man, the driver is about getting closer to him and more intimate with him... and desiring him for a longterm relationship. I can't even fathom what it is to just see some guy and be like, "I find him attractive and want to screw that guy and then have nothing to do with him." I'm sure some women might operate that way where she's geared towards short term hook-ups. But I don't think most women do.

What's your rationale there? Both are about changing your appearance. What's the difference?