Emerald

Also, I just looked at a picture of Ryan Gosling and Eva Mendes and they're at similar levels of attractiveness. Honestly, if they walked into a random room... they'd probably be the most attractive people in the room.

People are mostly attracted to one another because of disowned parts in themselves that they see in the other person. So, attraction is certainly partially physical. But it's mostly psychological and emotional when that attraction is strong enough to yield a longterm relationship. And the physical attraction is just the initial threshold for the deeper attraction takes hold. In this case, I could see that most women probably wouldn't feel comfortable with this dynamic and would be a deal-breaker for them. But I can see that they have chemistry together and are on the same wavelength. And other than some paralysis of his mouth, he's not a bad-looking guy in terms of facial attractiveness. Like, if you look at them both from the neck-up they look like a relatively average couple. So, I can certainly buy that it's a real relationship that started with mutual attraction.

Typically, what's attractive about a man in the eyes of most women is just exactly what you describe. It's the guy's energy and vibe... and his focus towards just enjoying the moment and being himself. And if a guy is intuitive and emotionally intelligent with an even-keeled warm demeanor, that's the entire battle. It really is just him showing that he's pro-social and normal... and giving off the vibes of his authentic personality, which throws out a subtle signal into the environment that a sizable minority of women will be attracted to.

Haha! Exactly! I suspect that most people who tend to be attracted to older partners are looking for some kind of maturity.

That's been my experience as well. Though, it usually takes me 2-3 months of platonic interaction for me to develop feelings that are deep enough to feel compelled to do something about them. But it's usually been a slow-burn of gradually escalating signals and sub-communication from within an otherwise platonic context. And I honestly can't imagine a woman preferring the more direct approach that pick-up guys do, as it immediately cuts all anticipation and sexual tension from the dynamic by making the sexual intention explicit from the get-go. Yet again, they may not necessarily care too much about the woman's preference in this way. They're likely just focusing on their own sexual goals... and whatever works for them is what works. So, fair enough. And I had some hook-ups when I was in my early 20s after I got out of my first relationship. And there was nothing interesting about them. These experiences were very emotionally under-stimulating. And the enjoyment of sex is 2/3 emotional for me and only 1/3 physical. So, there was just no "there" there. But I think a lot of the guys who do pick-up might be under the impression that women agreeing to have sex means that she prefers whatever works to get her in bed. It's one of the side-effects of the cultural narrative around women being hyper selective and picky. So, many guys seem to think, "Whatever method works to sleep with a woman is what is highly valued by that woman and equally or superiorly preferred to other methods of escalating things sexually." But they seem not to understand this qualitative difference in terms of how women experience it. Either that, or (like I said before) they're just mostly focused on their own agenda to hook-up and don't focus so much on the woman's enjoyment of the experience as long as they're succeeding with their sexual goals. But that gradual escalation of sub-communication arouses a lot of lovely heart-centered feelings of intimacy and sexual tension over time.

Well, that's a little bit of a different thing. I was actually VERY attracted to older men during the time of that club incident. So, while it's true that most women aren't attracted to significantly older men, I've been attracted to much older men since I was 20 years old and started to conceptualize of myself as an adult woman. And I still have a preference for older men. But when I was 20, it was a straight-up fetish to the point where I couldn't even find 20-something-year-old men attractive. I only was interested in guys who were 30+. (This is when I met my husband, who is 12 years older than me.) Right now (at age 36), if I were single, I'd still have somewhat of a preference for an age gap of 5-10 years. But I am currently capable of finding men my age attractive... and even a few years younger. But my fantasy when I was 20 years old was to seduce a fully mature and responsible man whom I knew in a platonic or professional capacity who's twice my age (early 40s). But a HUGE part of that age-gap kink was a craving for maturity... and to stress-test that fully grown man's maturity and resolve by using my sexual power over him as a young woman to put him in a values-conflict with his own instincts, where he is concerned for my welfare as someone so much younger than him but is struggling hard to resist being a big bad wolf. Something about the tension of that dynamic and seeing the conflict between his civilized nature and his animal nature play out in his facial expressions really pushed a button for me and made me feel this sense that my sexuality is powerful enough to turn a mature, warm-hearted, and responsible middle aged man into a ravenous beast. But this didn't work with just any older man... as maturity was the real craving. And I knew at that age that any 40ish year old man who's approaching (or preferring) 20-year-olds is very immature. So, those guys in the club were immature older guys trying to be youngsters. But I wasn't even attracted to 20-year old men back then because of my craving for maturity. So, why would I want a middle aged man who's trying to act like a 20-year-old? They were just stripping themselves of the primary quality that makes a man attractive in the first place. So, I was typically un-interested when older men would approach me as I knew that approaching a 20 year old as a middle aged person was a tell about their character, maturity, and depth. But I also knew that, despite the fact that a mature man in his late 30s or early 40s would never approach someone my age (at the time) and would go out of their way to make sure I was feeling comfortable... I also knew that they'd be tempted and would probably eventually give in if I made advances toward them.

Yeah, definitely. There seems to be a split where some people are as social as they've ever been and others are struggling with isolation.

Yeah. I think the issue now-a-days is that young people aren't socializing face-to-face as often... and community has worn thin. So, there's a lot of young guys who would have been just fine 15 years ago... who are now struggling a lot just to meet women. Then add to that, all this misleading internet propaganda that just feeds off of the normal male insecurities and exacerbates misogyny to a socially crippling degree to feel more protected against those insecurities. And it's leading to a society where a significant population of young people (especially men) are not developing romantic/sexual relationships. Society needs to come up with some kind of support structure for socializing and building community... especially for young people.

I'm not saying to do pick-up inside the warm social circle. It's a good way to get kicked out of one. What I'm saying is to have a warm social circle. And then, if one decides to do pick-up to do it as normal with women at bars and clubs or other places like that. And yes, it's important to plan and initiate conversions.

Yes, I totally agree with this. If I guy is over the age of 32 and is still focused on doing pick-up and going out to clubs to meet 9s and 10s, it just comes across as a bit immature. Funny story... I remember going to a club once with my friend Asha (we were 20 and 19, respectively) and these mid-30-something guys (or older) came in wearing the tackiest suits I've ever seen (like big-shots)... and they started awkwardly dancing up on us and other girls in the club. And it was a crowded club and we couldn't go left or right. So, Asha started subtly backing up as she was dancing because she had about a foot of space behind her... and I started subtly backing up as I was dancing (making it look like a dance move to be subtle)... as one of these older suited guys was gyrating towards us. And I eventually collided with Asha and we were both pressed up against one another backing up. And she eventually collided into another woman behind us... and all three of us we dancing and subtly backing up towards the wall as the guy continued his awkward gyration dance moving closer and closer until he was doing his gyration on me and grinding his crotch into me... and I squirmed out of the way as he turned the focus of his gyration dance elsewhere. That's the kind of immaturity that it feels like, when a man who's beyond his early 30s is still doing pick-up. But if a guy is under the age of 25 or is really struggling to meet women, I can get why they'd want to learn pick-up. For very young guys (proximal to college age), it's just the phase of life to want to sexually experiment... and pick-up is a way to make that happen. It's a similar motivation to why young people want to go to clubs. And for guys struggling to meet women, I can see it feeling like the only solution. But for the latter group, they'd do SOOO much better to just develop a warm social circle. And they'd be a lot more likely to develop a relationship from it that feels good to be in. Like, I had TONS of nerdy guy friends as a teenager because I was a gothy nerd myself. And they all lost their virginity by their mid to late teens because... they had a warm social circle with both male and female friends (myself being one of them). Like, we were all always hanging out and getting into teenage shenanigans. So, these relationships and hook-ups naturally happened. Like my most late-bloomer nerdy friend, didn't lose his virginity until he was 19. And at the time, by comparison, that was quite late as most lost their virginity by 16 or 17. But the main common denominator with these nerdy guys is that they were social and had both male and female friends. So, my bias was "All the nerdy guy friends that I know are having sex with either me or one of my nerdy girl friends." It never occurred to me that guys would even have that much of a struggle finding a sexual partner, as even the most awkward guys that I knew were getting girlfriends and having sex. There were even guys (that I didn't like) who were in my broader social circle of acquaintance friends that had the combo of being unattractive, awkward, unhygienic, and poor of character... and they still had sex and got girlfriends. And I just feel like pick-up stunts guys who are isolated and struggling to meet women because it keeps them isolated and held back from socializing and building community around themselves. They just keep thinking taking actions that will isolate and stunt them more.

If you're seeing pick-up as a means of developing a warm social circle... I don't observe that working out very well. The healthiest way would be to build a platonic social circle... and then to launch from your platonic social circle to approach new women. The other way around it is that you build your social circle around your sexual needs... and the guys and your wingmen and the women are your conquests. It just doesn't seem like a very healthy social circle.

There's probably a good reason why these kinds of unusual positions are unpopular... things like the wheel barrel and stuff like that. I honestly can't imagine that feeling very good, as it would be in at an awkward angle that he couldn't go very deep and would easily slip out. And the spinning would probably just be awkward and cause chafing from weird angles. And the angle might put pressure on her public bone. That's what I imagine it feeling like when I look at this image. I also can't imagine that the man would be properly stimulated here... and he'd have to do a tons of work for not a lot of return for him or his partner.

@Joshe's advice is a lot more realistic and helpful for guys who are struggling with dating, as it will teach them how to be a normal social guy and to cultivate a warm social circle. The crisis affecting young men isn't that they aren't getting the hottest women. The crisis is that they're isolated and not connecting with any women (or people) at all. And pick-up artistry can't solve that issue... and will likely exacerbate it because it doesn't teach socializing under normal circumstances. Pick-up is fine as a supplement for men who already have a warm social circle and who have already developed socialization skills. But young guys now aren't developing a warm social circle as easily because the social landscape has changed to where people aren't interacting in person as often. Consider that, being a millennial, you have a lot of those needs already met. So, you can afford to dabble around with pick-up. But these younger guys don't have such a luxury, as their social support systems for interacting with women have worn thin. And they have to learn to initiate community for themselves if they want to be able to have sex, have a girlfriend, wife, children, etc.

Oh definitely, it was VERY dangerous what I was doing. If I were doing it consciously and deliberately and with full acceptance (without slut-shaming myself), I would have been more selective about the targets of my escapades and would have actually enjoyed them more with men who I knew and was attracted to. But because I was unconscious and repressing my sexuality for years before that, it was like I just kept rationalizing myself into agreeing to hang out with random guys that I wasn't particularly attracted to... and then having no ability to resist the dynamic going into sexual territory. It was like depriving myself of a needs (like food) for years because I believed that eating food and wanting variety with food was shameful. So, then (from a state of starvation) I just "binged" on whatever was in front of me... like eating poison apples because I'm starving. And now, I think having some variety of sexual experiences is very important for people to understand themselves. I just had too much of a purity mindset about sex and romance that I had baked into my identity. And it put me in the position for a binge and restrict relationship with my sexuality. And once I was out of that relationship and the restrictions that I placed on myself, I binged in a way that I didn't feel like I could stop or control. But it sounds like you and your partner have been having important discussions about it. It's a tricky situation to navigate for sure. But if you're both on the same page, you could try an open relationship. It is challenging if he's not quite feeling as strongly about it as you are. So, that's definitely something to consider. But one thing that I would say is that, those experiences did satisfy my curiosities. And I recognized that the experiences of hooking up are not that interesting. If I hadn't had those experiences, it would certainly have made it harder to settle down with someone.

@Schizophonia I really wasn't being bitchy to you. I really do mean that it's normal for someone your age to not have experience yet. That probably describes at least 1/3 of guys in their early 20s. I was just saying that you'll need some more experience before you're able to speak on what men (ages 18-90) generally enjoy (and what it implies about their level of Masculinity and psychological state). And you'll even need more experience to know what you like specifically. Once you have some experience, you'll find that a lot of what you think about and fantasize about now may not actually be the experiences you'd like to have, in real life. It's best to not get too bogged down in extrapolating theories based on your current fantasies before you have the actual experience. That's the point that I'm making. But it also makes sense that you'd want to have that experience with a woman who has similar levels of experience to yours. Like I said, people tend to want to have experiences with others who are on the same page.

Sure, I'll share some insights first... and then a personal anecdote. One thing I would say is that, I found that (when I was younger) the guys who I had found attractive on paper don't necessarily feel satisfying to sleep with. It's more about the chemistry and bonding. So, I wouldn't say that sleeping with your physical type would put you off your partner. That very likely won't happen. But I would tend to advise you to get everything out of your system and explore yourself sexually. That's the advice I'd give to my younger self. Yet again, that's difficult because you'd have to break up to have those experiences. It's truly a difficult bind to be in. But I find that it's important to let the bull run until it becomes content because you only have one life. And I want to share a personal anecdote to give a sense of why this is my perspective... -- When I was with my first serious boyfriend who I lost my virginity to, I was so attached to him that I thought we would marry and that he would be the only person I'd ever be with for my entire life. I was with him from the time I was 16 until I was 20. And I would try to deny to myself that the idea that being with him for life bothered me and that I wanted to have other sexual and romantic experiences, because I was very attached to the relationship. I feared that wanting these things meant that I wasn't valuing the relationship enough, so I tried to put those thoughts out of my mind. Now, the relationship was bad... so it really needed to end. That should have been like a yearlong relationships MAX. And this is where things are very different than your example. But even if it were an amazing relationship, I feel like I needed to have those sexual experiences with different partners to feel like I wasn't depriving myself of knowing myself that way for my entire life. And the reality (that I was suppressing and repressing) was that I wanted to have other sexual experiences and to explore my sexuality more openly and freely. But I was in denial of this... because I was attached to him... and I was highly identified with being the "chaste woman who will only have sex with one man for her whole life." And I had a bunch of slut-shamy narratives at the time where I felt like my value went down with every guy I slept with... and I had judgments towards promiscuous women that I would compare myself to to inflate my ego as the "chaste woman who's only been with one man and will only be with one man for life". And I wouldn't even allow myself to admit to myself that I found other guys attractive the whole 4 years that I was with my ex-boyfriend. So, I was deeply repressing my sexuality to maintain that relationship... and to maintain the identities associated with reserving my sexuality only for him for my whole life. So, when the relationship finally ended... I unconsciously "sleepwalked" my way into having sex with 4 random guys in the span of two weeks. Like, I'd meet a guy and he'd invite me over. I wasn't even that attracted to them. But I'd rationalize my way into saying yes. And I'd tell myself, "If he tries to sleep with me, I'll just say no". And then, I just wouldn't say no. Or if I did say no and the guy didn't take the first no, I just wasn't able to resist it. The reality was that I wanted to. But I wasn't conscious that I wanted to. But I would put myself in positions where it was bound to happen. And I would even shave off all my body hair from the neck down before I met them... and rationalize that away too. And in just a couple weeks, I dashed my "chaste woman" identity on the rocks... which made me feel like I was losing my value and my identity. And I was super confused because I didn't consciously want to have sex with these guys... except for one of them who I deliberately sought out to have a sexual placeholder to stop myself from sleeping with random guys to avoid upping my number. Like I was having a huge problem. And I wasn't even admitting to myself that I wanted to have hook-ups. And I had no boundaries or defenses against sleeping with random guys. After that two weeks, I pretty much isolated myself as I felt like I had just come down with a hardcore sex addiction that I had no control over. And because all of this was as a result of my deeply repressed sexuality, I wasn't consciously choosing who to sleep with. I was just agreeing to hang out with random guys and letting it happen to me. If I were to go back and time and talk to my 20 year old self, I would have urged her to admit to herself that she just wants to have some random sexual experiences... but that she should admit that to herself, so that she chooses to do it with guys she actually wants to. But I really repressed my sexuality hardcore to preserve my relationship and my identity... and it came back with a vengeance as soon as that relationship ended where it just took ahold of me. And it was SUPER confusing to me at the time, as to why I was doing that. So, I tend to recommend to young people to get these experiences out of their system for this reason.

Exactly... it's just precisely what he drew.

It looks like a four-armed woman man-handling a limbless man and turning him upside down and cracking his head open on her knee.

Best and most realistic dating advice for guys that I've seen on this entire forum.

I just watched the video. How does it help you with your goal to get better with women? Is it just like, "Haha. Yeah, women are delusional." while feeling validated and everything else stays the same. Or does it actually concretely help you meet women?

That's been my experience too that it's a continuation of other non-sexual forms of communication.

Yes, that's an important point. Men tend to like to feel like they're having a powerful positive effect towards their partner. So, open emotional expression shows him his impact on you. And there's also the vicarious enjoyment of experiencing a woman who's in touch with her emotions and body.

100%

He's said so himself that he doesn't have a wife or children.

Definitely 100% bad faith from the beginning... but more convincing back then. Also, that's surprising that these Jubilee videos are actually doing something positive. I had always chalked them up to just being a way to "both sides" some really cut and dried issue. Like, I would only be slightly surprised to see a Jubilee video that's like "Child murderers versus Parents" where both sides share the "merits" of their arguments. But it's good to know that this format is actually exposing the weaknesses and inconsistencies of the paradigms that these right wing pundits operate off of. Perhaps this format really does throw some light on the realities of what these pundits believe, for political normies.