Emerald

And that’s okay. Plenty of women will still be open to pick up. Bars and clubs aren’t going out of style anytime soon. I just don’t recommend it for women who are looking for a relationship. It’s not a very good strategy for getting the type of relationship experiences that most women want.

Thank you. ? The social circle thing works well for warm approach as a man too. And a wide social circle also conveys social status. It’s a much better way to find a compatible partner. But you’ll have more quantity of dates/sex with cold approach as it’s a numbers game. It’s just usually not as good as the social circle for cultivating relationships.

If you’re doing pick up, go ahead and be clear about your intentions up front. It will get you laid more often. But that’s your agenda... not a woman’s agenda. I recommend to women to just avoid men who cold approach and show sexual interest too quickly (unless she’s only looking for sex). This ‘rushing in’ that pick up oriented guys learn to do can be a red flag... but even if it’s not, it just isn’t emotionally stimulating enough to feel that yearning desire to merge with a man, tbh. Women are like water in a tea kettle... we take a while to get hot enough to boil. And if a man tries to make tea with me right away when the water’s still ice cold and I’m not even on the burner yet, I won’t have any desirous feelings. It will be as boring as talking to a telemarketer and potentially even a bit annoying if he’s doing it in a context that isn’t a night club or bar where cold approach is socially acceptable. And I also recommend women adopt an unreceptive way of responding to men who show sexual interest too quickly. You’re wise as a woman to screen it out because you send a clear message that you don’t accept spam and that you expect higher quality male attention that’s more meaningful and pointed directly towards you in particular, as opposed to being pointed at any and all attractive women this man meets. It’s honestly, much better and more exciting and natural feeling for women to find men by cultivating a rich social circle. And then, as organic interactions happen, feelings for one of the men in that social circle will typically start to arise. And over a month or so, those feelings for that man will get to a fever pitch. And the most fun part is when you’re really into a guy and things are still a little ambiguous and you and the guy are spending more and more time together and being kind of playful. And then, the breaking point comes... and usually that’s where things get physical. That’s what it’s like to develop more organic relationships via having a dynamic wider social circle.

Wrong! I said it’s wise not to date men outside your social circle if you’re a woman. A healthy social circle is like hundreds and hundreds of people that you have a platonic relationship to. And in that social circle you have mostly acquaintances. For example, when I was in college I had a few close friends, 30-40 or so more casual friends that I’d chill with at parties, and hundreds of acquaintances. And I recommend selecting a man who’s either in the more casual friendship category or the acquaintance category. But also, continually meeting new people to add to your wider circle to keep it dynamic. So, you definitely don’t need to be best buddies with a guy before dating him. I don’t recommend that. Just exist in proximity to him for 2 or 3 months, to give time for feelings to arise and to get to know his general MO.

This is the exact point I'm making in the OP. That which is true and that which is useful are sometimes not one in the same. For example, if you tell your child that they better brush their teeth every night or the tooth fairy will get mad... it's not true. But it is useful if you're a parent and your agenda is to get your kid to brush their teeth. Another example, people in an old village bury seeds in the ground to feed to a magical Earth deity. And if the Earth deity enjoys the seeds, it will provide food for the village. Is it true? Absolutely not. Is it useful? Definitely. The same thing is true with the narratives around female sexuality in pick up. It's useful because it gets guys to do things more effectively. But the narrative itself is a deep misunderstanding of what female sexuality is actually like. It is a Stage Orange version of the magical thinking found in Stage Purple. The only difference is that it sounds sciency and rational. So, it's a more convincing fairy tale... especially because it's useful.

The desire to be understood only applies to men I’m interested in.

Thank you!

Well said!

Intimacy... which means being seen and understood by your another person... is a relationship need for women. It's also a relationship need for a man. Intimacy serves as the foundation for a good relationship. It's just that men can still experience random sex with a woman without intimacy and still feel relatively satisfied with the experience. For women, random sex without intimacy is high risk/low reward. The real spice of the relationship for women, is the intimacy. And without that, a sexual relationship with a man is pretty boring as it doesn't even scratch the surface of what's genuinely stimulating for us. So, don't project men's insecurities onto women's sexuality and relationship needs. It would be like you saying, "Most men need sex to feel fulfilled in a relationship" and I would respond by saying... "That's just the insecurity talking." But no... it is genuinely something most men would require in order to feel that a relationship to a woman is fulfilling. So, from the female perspective, a relationship where the man can't/doesn't see you or understand you is as dull and dry as a relationship with a woman who never expresses sexual desire for you.

I would be interacting enthusiastically with the man in this scenario and making it clear that I like him. I wouldn’t be cold about it. I just would set firmer boundaries and let him do more of the legwork during the courtship phase. But once an actual relationship forms 50/50 is good. This list is about the initial phase of dating, where a woman is wise to set very firm boundaries and vet a man’s character, compatibility, level of interest, and vision for the future before investing too much of herself.

You could do 50/50 if you want to. But I don’t recommend it before a committed relationship has been formed. Until then, let the man do about 3/4 of the legwork. Once you have a committed relationship, things can and should even out. But my advice to women in the courtship phase, is to pursue less than he does. And this is because it will shake out better for the woman this way. And if he’s willing to put in the effort, then that’s a very good sign that he’s really interested in you for an actual relationship instead of just as an easygoing woman to have a little fun with for a while. And it isn’t about playing games. It’s about setting proper boundaries and avoiding getting too involved too quickly with men who are not looking for what you’re looking for. It’s about compatibility and vetting a man’s level of interest/commitment prior to getting serious with him.

When I’m talking about pick-up, I’m talking mostly about cold approach. But personal development done for the purpose of attracting women is a lot different than personal development done for the sake of becoming your best self. The former type of personal development will always be delimited to the tastes of the average woman because it is always about gaining more mass appeal. So, it won’t take you into your full potential because most things designed specifically for mass appeal must be watered down to fit the sensitivities, level of development, and perspective of the average person. And the average person (male or female) is not very well developed. The latter type of personal development is only limited by the limits of your own imagination. And as a perk, this will make you truly magnetic and infinitely more attractive and admirable to women on the same wavelength as you as you will truly embody your unique masculine energy. And you won’t have scarcity... though you also might lose some mass appeal. But the women who are interested in you will be more prone to respecting and admiring you for exactly who you are.

I didn’t say a man couldn’t become more attractive. If he gets over his self-esteem issues, develops himself, and learns to socialize more, he will be more magnetic and attractive. But this is more general personal development. But beyond learning the absolute basics of what women respond to sexually, pick-up is honestly mostly a placebo. It’s like Dumbo’s magic feather. Dumbo thinks he can’t fly unless he’s holding his magic feather, until he realizes that he had mistakenly attributed his innate ability to fly to a placebo. The fact of the matter is that women are usually attracted to men. And you are a man. That’s honestly doing the majority of your legwork for you as long as your self-esteem is okay and you are able to carry on a normal conversation. And if a sizable percentage of women are horny enough or lonely enough and you’re above her looks- threshold, she may be receptive to sex with you. And that is the low-hanging fruit that cold approach is good for. There are just a lot of female purity myths that give men the impression that sexual acceptance from a woman is difficult to find, and also that if they’ve gotten a woman to sleep with them that it means something about their general desirability and quality in the eyes of women. But to really have more women desiring you, pick up can be like 10% of your focus just to get some experience. The other 90% is about developing yourself into the best version of you. That’s the thing that really moves a woman and makes her knees weak.

Again, I already said I understand why pick up exists. This isn’t a “don’t do pick up” thread. Go out and meet and have sex with as many women as you want. The thread is about the useful, but still incorrect, distortions of the pick up perspective and how that leaves men misunderstanding women’s actual needs and leaving them unsatisfied and underfucked. So, pick up only really works for men having their needs and desires met. Genuine female desire doesn’t really come into the picture with pick up beyond the most surface level stuff. Pick up doesn’t teach you about what women really want or need. It just teaches you how to approach and play the numbers game until you can harvest the low hanging fruit. So understand that, when you do pick up, the woman may tell you that she’s satisfied in hopes it will help her get the intimacy she’s looking for from you. But this is likely self-deception because sex by itself (from the female perspective) is pretty high-risk/low-reward without the cultivation of deeper love and intimacy. And a one-night-stand with some pick up guy will never scratch that itch. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it though. Just understand that the experience you’re having is a lot more interesting than the experience she’s probably having.

If that’s your agenda that’s fine. You don’t need to understand women to get sex. It’s a numbers game at the end of the day. If you keep approaching, you’ll eventually find a woman who’s horny and thus open to a one-night stand with you... or simply one who’s lonely or lacking boundaries. Just don’t kid yourself into thinking that you’ve satisfied her on any level that women generally would consider meaningful. Also, understand that most women will rightly screen you out because most women aren’t interested in the experience you’re offering.

This is advice for relationship-seeking women to follow... so it's not advice for men. Trust me when I say that these are good ways to screen men to see if they're good relationship material. If he starts out on a sexual/romantic foot with you, this is a potential red flag because it means he probably approaches many women the exact same way. And pick up artists don't usually make good partners until they've long grown out of that phase. Also, if you don't know him platonically first, you really don't know that man. A man will conscious or unconsciously pretend to be whatever you want him to be if he goes immediately into courtship mode. And this can end up unfulfilling/incompatible at best and dangerous at worst. So, don't date a stranger... and don't start out on a romantic foot with a stranger. This honestly feels like a "duh" thing. Also, generally speaking, women really want the man to chase them. This is why women are very wise to contact less than the man. It keeps her in her feminine attracting mode and makes him shift into his masculine pursuer mode. And if men are aloof and the woman is already invested and doesn't have firm boundaries, she will shift into her masculine pursuer mode while the man takes the more feminine role. And this really doesn't feel good to most women. It makes them feel anxious and desperate. So, if you want a woman to be desperate and anxious about you... then have her contact you more. But if you want to make your woman feel good and secure with you, pursue her. Either way, I know what kind of experience a woman would want. And it isn't wondering if the guy is actually into you or not. Giving a man space and distance will give him the impetus to come closer.

Basically seeing women as human first before any sexual meaning is applied and not determining a woman’s inherent value in relation to their sexual value to you. To view someone as an object is to view them only as a vehicle for carrying out your own wishes. The person is seen only as a tool you can use. To view someone as a subject is to view them as a whole person without regard to thinking about what they can do for you. And those with a primarily objectifying mindset, will also see themselves through the same lens. They will see themselves as a tool for others’ desires and will question their ability to be a good enough tool.

It's a very common pattern. I work with people as a life-coach and this probably describes 70%+ of the people I work with. Mind you, I do tend to attract introverted types since my viewership is mostly INFPs, INFJs, INTPs, and INTJs. So, it may be a bit more of an issue than in the general population. But I do think that this pattern effects most people because it is a problem with the anti-community way the world is currently structured.

This is a very important insight here that you're sharing... The way that a man judges women... the judgment will always rebound inward to himself because he also has an Anima (the inner woman in every man). You can look on this forum (and at the world in general) and find that the men who have the most objectifying, bitter, and mean-spirited views toward women have much lower self-esteem, especially in regards to dating. And this is because they project that women are also viewing them with the same objectification and mean-spiritedness. This you're noticing about yourself. And of course, the Anima, which is a large part of the male personality will take the direct blow of the misogyny. And the man's self-esteem will take a huge dive because man is also quite a bit woman. So, the sword of bitterness, devaluation, and objectification that he stabs toward women also stabs him in his feminine place bringing up Shadow Feminine feelings of bitterness and pettiness. And likewise, men who are the most secure, tend to have more normal and humanizing views toward women. And they don't see women as pornographic demon angels up on a pedestal objectifying them and judging their masculinity and their worth as a human being... because they are not judging women's inherent worth based on her looks/femininity. Also, there is nothing bad about being attracted to women who are your looks-match. In fact, that's quite normal. Most couples don't have a significant disparity in terms of their looks. They even did an experiment, where they put numbers on sticky notes on everyone's heads and had them try to match up. And most people matched up with those who are closest in number, even though they couldn't see their own number. So, it's quite normal. It's just that there's a lot of pressure to be the guy who has all the hot women... mostly not even for the pleasure of the experience but for the status in the eyes of other men. So, being with a woman of equal looks to you might create feelings of inadequacy in the eyes of other men. And this leads also to self-esteem issues, since you are expecting them (and often rightly so) to be judging your masculinity as inadequate. Men with low self-esteem tend to play off of one-another's insecurities about their own masculinity and success with women... which of course creates a cycle of bad feelings about themselves. Their judgments towards other men, also rebound inward towards themselves. Basically, any judgment out will rebound as a judgment inward. So, one of the best ways to improve your self-esteem is to drop judgment and notice the humanity in all people and to view all people in a subjectifying way as opposed to an objectifying way.