Valach

I agree that "frame" is broader than just emotional investment. Where I disagree is with the emphasis on frame control. To me, there is a difference between having a grounded worldview and trying to control the interaction so it stays within your frame. The former comes from security. The latter often comes from fear of losing approval, status or attraction. Someone with healthy self-esteem doesn't need to constantly think about maintaining or controlling the frame. They can be vulnerable, change their mind, admit they're wrong or let the other person influence them without feeling like they've "lost." Ironically, I think genuine confidence is the ability to let go of control, not to become better at exercising it.

Absolutely. If someone spends 20 years talking about compassion but is incapable of helping anyone, there is a disconnect. I think that's a valid philosophy, but I'm not sure that's what Spiral Dynamics itself is describing. My understanding is that Spiral Dynamics is primarily a model of evolving value systems and motivations. Those values should absolutely be embodied in reality, but why should the embodiment necessarily be measured by entrepreneurship, financial independence or organizational power? Couldn't a teacher, physician or therapist embody higher-stage values through the work they do without ever building a company? Likewise, couldn't someone build a highly successful company while still being primarily motivated by achievement, status and winning? Where I think we still disagree is what counts as embodying higher-stage values. For example, I have a friend who used to be a pickup coach. He is highly competent, disciplined, independent and socially skilled, so I would say he has integrated many healthy Orange capacities. Today, he has consciously shifted his priorities. His life revolves around reducing suffering—animal rights and helping women who have experienced domestic abuse. He earns just enough to comfortably pay for food and rent. Not because he lacks the ability to earn more, but because he deliberately chooses to spend his time differently. Would you say he hasn't transcended Orange simply because he chose not to maximize money or build a business?

It comes from pickup. It is essentially about emotional investment. The less you care, the better you are at "maintaing frame". While it has some truth to it, it is deeply problematic.

Fundamentally wrong on both levels. Definitely met plenty of woman who were not in such relationships. I was also not leader in some of my relationships. People evolve. You consume pickup theory and then go back into the real world with closed mind, you will only see the examples that verify your assumptions. And yes, as people mature and become more conscious, while obviously not transcending survival needs, they can become less important for them - thus seeking different relationships than those which PUA/redpill etc. claim.

I think this is where our disagreement actually lies. You seem to be using external achievements (business ownership, financial independence, influence, entrepreneurship) as the criteria for having transcended Orange. I'm not convinced that's what Spiral Dynamics is describing. Couldn't those simply be expressions of healthy Orange (and I am not even sure about that) rather than evidence of having moved beyond it? For example, imagine two people: One builds a very successful business but is still primarily motivated by achievement, status and winning. Another is a physician or teacher who embodies competence, rationality, autonomy and responsibility, but whose primary motivation has shifted toward understanding, service and consciousness. Why would the entrepreneur necessarily be considered to have transcended Orange more than the physician? I'm genuinely asking because this seems to be the assumption underlying your argument, and I don't see why external success should be the defining criteria rather than the values and motivations driving the person. In other words: If someone spends their life as an employed physician, scientist, monk, professor, or therapist but clearly embodies Yellow values, would you still say they haven't transcended Orange because they aren't financially independent? Or if @Leo Gura for some reason decides to quit his work around actualized.org and goes back to game development, does that mean he regressed back to orange?

Also I would point out one thing - you can be affraid of rejection and thus anxious, while consciously not being aware of that. That was happening to me for a long time as well - I would be talking to people/girl that I am not even invested in, yet I would be anxious anyways. Consciously, in my mind I was like "I do not really care about validation of this person and if they reject me or not", but my body was clearly saying something else.

No, never been diagnosed officially. But it is obvious to the point of my friends or exes telling me I have clear symptoms of ADHD. I really believe (and that is my understanding of some authors like Gabor Mate) that AHD is simply a fear response. I think I am in a similiar place as you are. Always had symptomps of ADHD (since starting school), then developed social anxiety during my teen years - I also though that it was the bullying (though mine was quite mild luckily) and lack of socializing. But I do not believe that anymore. What was happening is that I did not get my needs fulfilled as a little child. Not that I was abused or something like that but my parent's simply had their own shit to deal with. This created a insecure, fearful nervous system that learned to tuned itself off and I was seeking this safety through external things. Like gaming (more of an avoidant strategy) or leaning on validation of others - which partially caused social anxiety. I always believed that this is something to be "fixed" externally which was fueled by my journey in the pickup. And yes, it did help my social anxiety to a certain point where I know how to talk to people and how to appear charismatic. But I am rarely relaxed. And it is not because of lack of exposure but because of this trauma living in my nervous system and I carry it everywhere with me. I am not socially anxious - I am anxious, I am fearful all the time. The social situations just highlight this issue because on some level my system believes that there is a resolution on hand. That if I get the validation of this person or woman if it is a date, I feel relax and feel safe - for a moment at least. Alcohol used to work amazingly well (never was an alcoholic) but having like 2 drinks would relax me so much and help me connect with other way more. Nothing can tell, everytime I open up to people about this, they are surprised because I appear very confident socially and have success with opposite gender. But this feeling of unsafety was also sabotaging my relationships and I can see that clearly now - I was terrified of connecting to woman. Funny enough I recently started talking to my sister about all this stuff - and she has the same fucking thing as i am. Quite the clear pattern. And to be honest, the more self awareness I get, the more I feel my body and the more my emotional intelligence increase - the more I see this stuff in other people. And at this point - I believe that at least 90% of population (depending on location) is carrying around heavy trauma which impacts their lives in many ways and most are unaware of that and just trying to avoid feeling any of the inner pain. We live in a profoundly unhealthy world. As you said, you were not socially anxious as a baby. Noone is born socially anxious. It is not about lack of social skills or social exposure. It is a learnt behaviour where you are affraid that something is gonna happen or something is not gonna happen that you crave. And it all goes back to some big wound from childhood. Definitely would not recommend medicating with alcohol. But I found that simply being really social is not some sort of final solution either (as it is often presented in pickup/self-help communities). I am not experienced on ADHD medication as I said. Might try it. But I am bit affraid that I would be managing the symptoms instead of the wound - but hey, getting rid of the symptoms might unlock me in my life to the point of me being able to focus on the actual wound. Who knows.

Yea, never took any meds though considered it. But as you said I believe these issues are psychological and not really genetical. I believe it is a nervous system that does not feel safe and create a defensive mechanism of tuning out - and the unsafe feeling, hypervigilance translates directly into having social anxiety. You do not feel safe, thus you feel like you need to lean onto validation of others to soothe this wound of yourself and this creates a scenario where your survival directly depends on the validation of others - which causes fear because if you are rejected, you percieve that as threat and thus this creates social anxiety. That is my theory at the very least. I wish you that the meds will work out for you! For the time being I am trying to heal this is more "non-medicative" way but perhaps in time I might try to experiment with medication as well. I also struggled with a strong social anxiety - and to a degree I still struggle. And I also have very clear symptoms of ADHD. it maps really well onto attachment theory. But I might be too geeky about that shit - it's like the biggest theme in my life right now

I am sorry to break it to you but you are nowhere near stage yellow. And neither am I.

As I said, integrating stage orange is about integrating it's values such as competency, individualism, resilience. It is not about getting as much money as possible. Or you think someone like Gabor Mate who had to work his whole life as a psychiatrist never moved past orange? Don't be ridiculous.

Maybe, but that is completely besides the original discussion of bringing up a corporate hot girl up in stages.

What do you mean operating outside of stage orange? You think everyone who has to work for living is inherently not above stage orange?

I do not despise money. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that. But there are other ways to be valuable to people besides providing monetary value - and people above orange would simply not be motivated by "getting money". Yes they will to some extent utilize money but it will not be the driving force for them.

Integrating stage orange is not about being financially independent (in the sense that you do not rely on selling your labor). Go read some material about spiral dynamics or watch Leo's video. Besides, we were up until now stricly talking about dating related stuff, at no point did we touch work or purpose.

That value might not be monetary though. And you were comparing stages regarding your dating a corporate woman example.

1. I never claimed I am stage yellow. 2. I never claimed I rejected relationships. Yes, I am not dating NOW, but that is just for couple of months. I am sure I will be back to dating when I feel like that. I definitely do not live like some monk. How do you expect success in integrating orange exactly? You do realize you do not need to have harem of 10 models and making millions of dollars in order to evolve past orange...otherwise people would not be getting past orange often since those things are rare. What integrating orange is about is integrating it's values and its positives, not it's material aspects.

I did not see that sentence in bold before (maybe it was an edit?). That stuff was never my argument. Obviously I do not go around telling 20-year old virgins who are jobless that getting jobs or dating for a bit is useless. But this is a forum about development and conscioussness and I feel like it is fair to point out that pickup, dating, sex and all the material aspects of it are stage orange and thus farly unconscious. You have to integrate stages to go up - you will always have some shadows, can't really escape that. But just as you can try to bypass some development by "fake evolving", you can get stuck in some stage and just dig yourself in it.

How did you break it down exactly?

Sure, i work in a corporate so meet them reasonably often. Do not conflate however intelligence or competence with consciousness. Those are not related. You can be succesfull, competent and inteligent and yet deeply unconscious. Actually, being unconscious will help getting you "traditional" success more than being conscious.

Such a egoless, stage yellow response my friend

Not judging does not mean you want to surround yourself by these people. I am not judging a heroin addict on the street for I understand that it was not his choice really to end up in that situation. Yet I do not choose to make him my friend or spend time around him.

Yeah, I don't think there is any point discussing this further.

Stage yellow person would not be interested in dating someone stage orange person. That's the thing you are not getting the whole time we lead these discussions.

Because then you get stuck in this place and you do not evolve. You "abundance" of woman becomes an addiction. You are not free, you are slave to your egoic desires.

I don't even know how to respond to that man. Your hot corporate girl is gonna be deeply in stage orange.