Valach

I admit it is possible. But I don't think me face timing a girl for one or two hours would go as easy as simply calling. Personally I have never called anyone on IG (when I still had it) so I am not sure how responsive people are to it. I suppose it is also country dependent. You can build IG for that yes. But assuming you genuinely want to do that and have a lifestyle for that. In my opinion it is not worth having social media for that. But I understand people's view differ on social media.

The advantage of a phone number is that you can call the woman. That will give her way more emotional experience and connection than seeing your stories and whatnot. Especially great if you are looking for long-term so you can screen.

Dating can be distraction. You have to develop self awareness into why you even want to be dating. What are you seeking and why?

Great point. I was involved in my local PUA community. I used to look up to the coach of the community (he ran it solo), I still do in fact, but now i don't do pickup anymore but I have him as my friend. But I never really looked up to him because of his ability to attract woman. I admired his charitable values. He did a lot of charity, especially for animals. That to me is way more valuable (or rather aligned with my values, because there is no objective value), but obviously this value is not something that helps you with attracting people. So value is much more subjective. When people say things like "high value man" what they mean is "man who embodies values that are attractive to majority of woman", those do not have to represent my values however.

@Zenterus Agreed brother. I think it is great to learn and use spiral dynamics to understand the general stage of development of people but it is very dangerous to use it for any self assesment. Besides we will have all a lot of un-integerated shit so you might be yellow in some area of your life and then orange in another. For me the best indicator of your level of development are the people you resonate with. Be it real life people like your friends etc. or actual teachers/authorities you might look up to. I always think that I still have a lot of orange in me and then when I hang out with actual orange people I feel like I do not connect with their value system at all - often times it just make s me feel sad. That being said I have no idea where I am in the spectrum and I don't really care about it that much. There is always so much shit to become self aware about and integrate/heal.

Sorry to hear that. Hope the next iteration will be better:) when we have less woman the tea hers usually dance with us. But they told me there is usually shortage of men in bachata classes.

@Zenterus Actually, the easiest example of what I'm trying to get at might be attractive women. I assume that, like me, you've dated and known plenty of conventionally attractive women. Most of them live in what pickup would call "abundance" almost by default. Unless they deliberately remove themselves from dating, they have options, receive attention, know that other people desire them, and can usually find another potential partner relatively easily. But I've never gotten the impression that having this abundance of options necessarily translates into high self-esteem, emotional security, satisfying relationships, or even greater satisfaction with life. In fact, some of the most insecure women I've known have also been some of the most conventionally attractive and sought-after. Having endless external evidence that other people find you desirable apparently doesn't automatically resolve whatever is happening internally. And I think the same question can be applied to men. Suppose you become extremely good at attracting women. You develop the behaviours that reliably generate attraction, women pursue you, you have plenty of options and you no longer have to worry about scarcity. Okay, but then what? What has actually changed internally? Maybe you've genuinely developed confidence and self-esteem along the way. But it's also possible that you've simply become much better at obtaining the external experiences that temporarily make you feel confident and valuable. That's why I'm increasingly skeptical of using attractiveness or dating success as a proxy for psychological development. Becoming more attractive to other people can obviously improve your dating life, but I don't think we should automatically assume that it makes you more secure, more fulfilled, better at intimacy, or better equipped for a healthy long-term relationship. I would even wager to say that many of the strategies you pick up on the way will be detrimental to your life and you will have to unlearn them at some point. @Zenterus On a lighter note, how is bachata going? I have recently started as well and its a lot of fun!

@Zenterus I actually don't disagree with most of this, and I'm definitely not suggesting that you can take a highly anxious/needy guy and simply tell him to "be authentic." In fact, I think authenticity can be quite complicated in that situation. If you've spent years suppressing yourself, adapting to other people and seeking approval, you might genuinely have very little idea what authentic self-expression even looks like. So yes, I agree that consciously practicing different behaviours can be part of growth. You can learn assertiveness, boundaries, selectivity, social skills, etc. before those things feel completely natural. My disagreement is more about what we're modeling and why. There's a difference between consciously practicing "I'm going to express what I actually think instead of automatically seeking her approval" and "I'm going to withdraw validation here because I know it will create fear of loss and make her invest more." The external behaviour might even look similar, but the underlying orientation is completely different. In the latter case, you're still extremely preoccupied with the woman's internal state: how much validation you're giving her, when to withdraw it, whether she's investing enough, whether she's afraid of losing you, etc. You're ostensibly behaving non-needy while still organizing your behaviour around producing a desired emotional reaction in her. That's the part that seems contradictory to self-esteem or "abundance" to me. But I also question the idea of simply modeling "high-value men." How are we determining who is high value in the first place? Within pickup, it often seems circular: this guy gets a lot of women -> therefore he's high value -> therefore we should study and reproduce his behaviour. But success with women doesn't necessarily tell you much about someone's self-esteem, emotional health, authenticity, or ability to create a satisfying long-term relationship. I've known guys who were extremely successful with women, both naturally and through learning pickup, who underneath the socially confident exterior were actually deeply insecure. They had learned behaviours that looked like confidence, detachment and abundance and produced great dating results, but that doesn't necessarily mean the psychological structure underneath those behaviours was healthy. And attraction itself isn't necessarily a reliable filter for psychological health either. People can be intensely attracted to dynamics that reproduce their own insecurities, attachment patterns, etc. So "women respond positively to this behaviour" doesn't automatically mean "this is what a psychologically healthy, high-self-esteem man behaves like." That's my concern with using dating success as the feedback mechanism that reinforces the behaviour. You might successfully condition yourself into behaviours that make you more attractive and get you more women while simultaneously moving further away from emotional intimacy, vulnerability, authenticity or the kind of person you would actually want to be in a relationship. So I'm not against learning social skills or deliberately changing your behaviour. I think that's necessary for a lot of people. I'm questioning whether "gets strong reactions/results from women" is actually the right compass for deciding which behaviours and mindsets we should internalize.

Some aspects of this just sound like natural manifestations of high self-esteem. If you genuinely value yourself, have standards, and aren't desperate for someone's approval, you're naturally not going to overinvest, pedestalize her, or be afraid to walk away when you're incompatible. But intentionally and consciously trying to create "fear of loss" sounds extremely manipulative to me. And I'd even argue that it's almost the opposite of self-esteem or "abundance" (even though I dislike that term). You're still pedestalizing women, just in a more sophisticated way. You're still preoccupied with them and thinking about how you should behave in order to produce a particular emotional reaction in them, so that they'll invest in you and ultimately give you the emotional reaction you're looking for—usually some form of validation. Why not just focus on expressing yourself authentically, getting to know the person, seeing whether you actually like her, and allowing her to respond however she responds? If you're genuinely selective, non-needy, and willing to walk away, you shouldn't need to manufacture fear of loss. Those behaviors should emerge naturally from who you are rather than being strategically performed to get a particular response.

I would argue that a lot of "normal" trauma also has destabilizing effect on your day to day life. It is just much harder to notice because it is so much more common. Think a little kid who does not get approved by his parents enough and feels like he is not attractive enough and sufficient enough. Now he grows up with that belief ingrained in him and he will try to compensate for it. So he will try to be succesfull, get fit in the gym, buy nice clothes, have dating success, sleep around, do pickup and all the things that most other people are doing. Just because his life is built on false premise that he is not enough. But most people are like that so it is hard to notice. So yea, I am traumatized and have a deep sense of shame about myself and it influences me a lot. I am an addict. But so is almost anyone I meet - they just don't know it themselves.

In what ways do you think? EDIT: Sorry, I missread that, I think I get what you meant now (not a native speaker )

I agree. How is it related to blocking? I have blocked my ex (not out of whim of emotions) but as intentional decision almost one year ago now. And I have spent the year healing my attachment wounds, grieving the life I did not get and growing in general. Why would the act of blocking be immature there? Why is it even relevant? Almost everyone has trauma. The more you learn about it the easier it is to see.

But that is what you do as well no? You said it yourself, that you do not block to not send the message of some hatred. That is still seeking to appear mature. I would be very careful there. Trauma and pain related to this was the biggest catalyst for my own personal growth and raise in consciousness. Besides, most people have plenty of trauma, most of us are completely unaware or living in denial about having it.

And if I am still attached and I seek independence from them via blocking so I can focus on my goals and whatnot, would that signal maturity or immaturity? Furthemore, would you say someone with trauma is inherently less mature?

Why?

Because you are hurt in some way and you with to not see them anymore (social media, stories etc.) or you want to signal to yourself that it is truly over and cease the contact. Or you want to prevent yourself from reaching out in times of weakness (not sure if that works since you can unblock anytime).

Okay, what is immature now about blocking an ex?

Okay and someone preffering peace of not getting calls all the time might block the number, does that make the person immature?

People block someone for different reasons. I never though of it as sending some kind of message. I simply did it for myself.

I am not judging you for blocking the number as well, I understand it. Simply saying that it does not do much for me (does not trigger me - I do not really check who I have stored in my phone anyways). I don't think it is immature. What would be immature is not blocking it if you know it will help you heal out of fear of appearing immature.

@Miguel1 I also struggle with getting over breakups and letting people go. But that is because I have abandonment trauma so breakup triggers all the old wounds. Personally I do delete stuff common photos and remove/block their socials so I do not see them and get reminded of them. The nervous system needs to get used to not seeing the person anymore. Blocking the phone number does not do much for me as there is no photo there so the brain does not get triggered by seeing the number.

I am not saying it is healthy. I am simply saying that you should not be structuring your life around what you think other gender views as high value or cool or desirable. That is still you seeking validation. What is "healthy" also depends on the paradigm you operate from. When I was doing this couple of years ago I had a fairly rich social life (it was always very easy for me to make friends for some reason) so in a way I was "pausing" my social life to do pickup, it was not my only choice so to say. And woman had no issue with it for the most part. That being said, yes, today I would not consider it healthy. But to be honest I would not consider going out to clubs and doing hookups or using dating apps for that healthy either. Personally I would stay away from anyone who drinks alcohol (of course not gonna judge glass of wine with a dinner). So again, depends on your paradigm.

Most people are not. That is why deriving your of sense of how "succesful" you are at life from how capable are you at attracting people. It is not a measure of health being good at attracting unhealthy people.

Whilst I understand the sentiment, this is a very dangerous sentence to ask yourself. Why do you even care what your future partner wants you to be? You should be really only concerned with what kind of life do you want to life for yourself (which of course is very hard if you are attached to getting validation of woman - I am still there too).

Oh, yeah then we kind of just have different semantics. I am not saying they genuinely do not feel like assholes. It's just not who they truly are. They developed their personality around trauma. But they feel like that is who they are, yes. Anyone who has trauma (which is most people) will have trouble knowing who they are under all these defensive mechanisms. What I am trying to say is that I have met assholes who were good with woman - they are emotionally so disconnected from themselves that they have no clue who they are under all the pain.