Valach

Yes, that is asuming the social circle game is aligned with your interests and values. While it might be good for you, that is not feasible enough for most people simply due to most hobbies/interest/value/circles not attracting enough attractive woman. And it still has to be something you naturally want, which is not everyone. I would even dare to say it is not most people. Btw. The study you linked is refering to students. Obviously they meet via school. But I think on here we are more ambitious than that.

Woman are just as bad about screening characteristics suitable for long term relationships as guys are.

So that is kind of the PUA (and to large degree the mainstream stage orange society) paradigm. There is nothing wrong with that. But that is why I was pointing out that it is limited. By any means go through the journey and exhaust it. I have just found it quite limiting and not fullfilling at all.

You go on a date with a woman you are attracted to. There are 2 fictional outcomes: 1. You get the "success", be it by her getting physical with you or wanting to go on another date or wanting to have a relationship. Whatever you are after in the moment. 2. You express yourself fully. But you get rejected. Perhaps in painful way. Which outcome would you consider as bigger success?

Have you tried being congruent and authentic? Even when it means you will not appear attractive? Have you tried connecting to that part of yourself?

Yea, because you are in paradigm where success with woman is above all so you do not carefully evaluate what impact it has on your self esteem, how healthy and sustainable this lifestyle is.

Yeah, the issue is that the more you consciously try to appear high-value, the more you condition yourself that you are not high value in the first place.

Not my experience. Actually quite the opposite. I have met many man who even after getting the "attractive" woman were still not feeling good enough deep in their body. It then leads to the player lifestyle where you are addicted to the validation of woman (because you do not feel good enough in the first place so you need to medicate it). It is not a route towards healthy relationships, if that is your goal.

He can be an alright stepping stone. The thing is that he still "games". My approach to this is through self esteem and inner work. Essentially just being completely fine with yourself and this emanating from you. Not using any techniques or game to try to provoke reaction. Not hiding behind a mask of a charismatic person. But what you find after that is that the drive to go out and get woman in the first place might go down quite a bit. Which is obvious onto why.

I have found his perspective deeply limited. He has his place in the community, but it feels like he never actually moved on from technical game.

Trusting your body is all you really need

What you do not realise that this type of thinking is exactly coming from a place where you are putting her above her and thus you think you need to control your behaviour in some ways.

Yeah, okay, I am onboard with that. Though in my perception it is very hard to be heatlhy and orange at the same time. Vast majority of people are traumatized and it is very hard to get in touch with your pain without developing self awareness, that would probably move you past orange anyways.

Woudln't 2000$ bottle of vine places attract more still orange oriented people?

I guess you meant "anything that is NOT the standard loud music club." What are high class parties?

Oh yea, that is fair. But I would not describe it as "party lifestyle" then. What kind of circles/events did you find the most healthy people in?

I am more radical in this I suppose. The moment you are consuming any substances like alcohol, smoking etc. at least somewhat regularly, you are definitely running away from yourself. And party lifestyle and casual sex etc. definitely goes hand in hand with substance abuse. Unless you are PUA, but then that has its own issues. I have also never met a really conscious person who would have high levels of self awareness and would be highly promiscuous. Perhaps, they exist and I was just unlucky. But that is my experience nonetheless.

That is not exactly what I meant. Distraction from their -> distraction from their inner world and inner pain/suffering. The person getting drunk at the party is distracting themselves just as much as introvert playing video games etc.

I wouldn't say these people are really happy. Most of this lifestyle is just an attempt to distract yourself.

Okay, if you compare them to non-pickup guys like looksmaxxers, then I agree.

Really? Can you expand on the thick face approach? In my experience it was actually the on surface "softer" guys who were more in touch with their emotions who evolved past the pickup phase eventually. At least from what I saw in the PUA community I was and still partially am in.

Fair. At this point I am getting lost in all the topics and opinions on this forum

I don't know about others but I also looked up and respected the shit out of woman I dated - at least seriously. I do the same with my friends. But I would not call it hypergamy really.

I think this is where I'm still confused. Building systems doesn't seem unique to Yellow. Orange builds incredibly sophisticated systems too—companies, financial markets, logistics networks, marketing funnels, social networks. So what makes a system specifically Yellow rather than simply a very advanced Orange system? Is it the fact that it's a system, or is it the values and motivations that shape why the system exists and how it operates? To me, systems thinking is a hallmark of Yellow, but building an organization around something doesn't automatically make it Yellow.

Idk why he does that, you have to ask him.