Valach

@LordFall I do not dispute that entirely. I just think once you heal, the dating stops being about survival that much. I am not bypassing anything, I have been through pickup, I've seen the emptiness of it.

@Natasha Tori Maru Yes. I feel like attractives is quite a bit of projection. I don't feel good enough. I don't feel safe in this world. So I search for a value in the world to anchor myself in it. If I get a valuable woman (attractive according to society) that mean I am valuable and thus good enough. Do you yourself have experience with healing attachment trauma?

@LordFall I am not sure what happens then since I have not reached that stage yet. But I would argue that a big chunk of desire for very attractive partner is a desire to prove yourself, to others and yourself that you are good enough and attractive. Once you heal, you might be screening for compatibility and aligned values way more than for attractivness. Though it might still be relevant. I can't say myself. But I don't see in any way how this approach will hinder your attractivness. Quite contrary, I feel like this is the ultimate way to become attractive. If you are truly happy and content in yourself and do not have any need to prove yourself...that is gonna draw a lot of people in. Like, what else is there to learn after this?

@Spiritual WarriorMost people however have to go through it to realize it is not the answer. However many people get stuck in the endless chase of options. I am just trying to bring out that perspective. I believe on such forum it is okay. Wouldnt really post this on pickup forum.

@Spiritual Warrior Thanks for the summary but you have it other way around actually. It is not the lack of success with woman that has created trauma or wounds in you. It is wounds and trauma that drive you towards trying to externalize your value and seek to gain it. That can manifest by desiring to have a attractive partner or a lot of them, or sucessfull career or anything else really. By any means go out there and get your thing with woman, burn the karma if you feel like you need to. But do realize that it is not in itself deeply healing in itself and many of the insecurities will prevail. You do not feel shame by success. It does not work like that. Unfortunatly, otherwise I would be more than happy to just keep sleeping around.

@Natasha Tori Maru I have been studying attachment theory in depth recently. I can clearly now see that the entire "pickup industry" is essentially an attempt to heal insecurity and emotional wounds through external success (getting woman etc.).

See this is exactly where our views differ. A codependence is a emotional wound stemming from a neglect in childhood. Having "abundance" si a very superficial solution which does not really heal the problem. It is like having a brain tumor and taking painkillers for the related headache. You can easily see it with a lot of attractive woman who have options, and you could argue way better options than average PUA, yet they still have codependent behaviour in their relationships. Seen that many times. A healthy human being with good self esteem and regulated nervous system is not dependent on a partner nor is he/she dependent on a abundance of choices for their emotional wellbeing. He/she is simply emotionally self sufficient.

Absolutely. I am not saying success with wonam or social skills are wrong. I just think it is not the answer people need.

I have been part of the most conscious "game" group of my city. Obviously I don't really know what it is in other places, but guys around me are not running some routines and other shit. Yet they are all broken inside. I can see that clearly. Especially after last half year when I was studying deeply attachment wounds etc. You craving a woman either to be your girlfriend, or to have a harem or to have a lot of choices is a sign of the trauma. It is not healthy. I am not saying you specifically, just a general example. Like answer to yourself honestly. Why do you want to "have" this? To have the skill to attract woman? To know how to engage them effectively etc. Why is it important at all? If you would sit down most of these guys and dove deep with them (which requires a lot of self awareness which is practically impossible at large-scale), it would come down to - feeling worthy, feeling chosen, feeling like I am good enough. Most men, be it in the game or outside of it are "using" woman to externalize their own self worth. "I feel not good enough inside of me, but if I manage to learn how to get with attractive woman, that means I am good enough and I can relax for a bit". It's a drug. It is used to soothe pain and to avoid looking inside. I am not gonna advocate against guys learning this shit because they are not gonna skip this stage and go beyond probably. Well, most will never get over this. But to praise it on this forum as some ultimate solution to a satisfied life is quite delusional.

If you do so to not lose her or to keep her loyal, I believe it is not coming from a healthy place. But my opinions are quite extreme in this regard. I have been and to certain degree still am involved in my local "game" community. I believe that an emotionally healthy person with good self esteem would never learn game. Or at least I haven't met one. Obviously you can "grow through it" so to speak and see that the issue was never really about woman and get a help needed. But it is rare. Also this game being needed for a good relationship going is way too overblown. A lot of learning on how to be good with woman on the front actually reinforces the unhealthy patterns that manifest in relationships. I think the issue is that most people are simply way too traumatized and unhealed to hold a proper relationship. And so in place of that they expect to have this thing we call love or passion or whatever. From my experience that is not a healthy dynamic and not something that is gonna keep a long healhty relationship (mind you, those are very rare). In a way yes, game will help you keep the woman in the relationship. But a unhealthy one for the most part. It is like giving a junkie another high to keep her around.

This is just fear based behaviour, it is not really healthy. Game is also not as foundational to healthy relationship dynamics as you would think. Been there, done that.

@Hojo But he said himself that he just wants to have sex. That is the part you are missing. He knows.

@HojoIf you want to be ethical then yes, being open about what you are looking for is needed. I always ask on the first date what is the other party looking for. You don't have to force woman for it to be unethical. The woman might be having sex with you because she is expecting some sort of connection or that you are open to it at least. If you are not, it is deception essentially. Especially if you know she want to get to know you. Like I can't believe I have to explain this on this forum.

How does it not make sense to you. You know you just want sex. You know the woman wants more. You know if you say you just want sex you might not get it. So you not saying it is a textbook manipulation. No better than woman pretending to be interested in a date with a guys just to get a free dinner or something like that.

@Hojo This "lets just go with the vibe" statement is what guys say to get sex full well knowing that the woman would not sleep with them otherwise. I think it is very healthy to think of your intention when going into a date.

Recently discovered this channel and i love it!

How would you define "lots" of casual sex? I myself was quite promiscuous in the past and I rarely encounter woman who sleep around a lot (like 40 sexual partners and more). Like even the ones that "experimented" would casually fuck maybe 10-15 guys and then find out that they don't really enjoy it and either focus on relationships or stay single without sex or with a fwb arrangment. How do you view promiscuous woman? Do you take it in consideration when evaluating woman for a relationships?

@LordFall I feel like Julien has distanced quite a bit from his pickup days and even his views on dating and casual sex and all that have changed dramatically. That's the vibe I get at least from his current content.

Great comment, how did you go about healing attachment wounds? And what impact did it have on your life? It is a very present topic for me.

@Majed If you are faking or inducing being high energy, you care what others think about you deeply.

@oOoMind to share what a real empathy looks like to you then?

Healthy self esteem would be number one for me.

Very interesting. I am friends with a lot of people from bachata/salsa dance community. From what they say it is one big fuck-fest. Might be country and group depended though.

I have been myself to these events. At the time I liked it, people felt open minded. However I feel like I have outgrown these things and I can now see that there is a lot of issues with this lifestyle as well. But it is still a step up from a the traditional christian purity culture, no doubt. It's just limiting in my experience. And obviously hedonism does not lead to fullfilling life.

@LordFall Those are some good questions brother and to be honest I don't have clear answers yet. By any means go pursue as much sex as you want without hurting people. It's just once I started asking myself questions on why do I desire sex and woman so much, it became clear that is it not just about sex. I suppose it depends on where you live but I found sex positive communities just as troublesome. I have couple of friends who go to swinger parties and they are one of the most unbalanced and unhappy people I met. Just using sex as a numbing agent.