Valach

I mean, to be buying designer clothes is already materialism. Again, it does seem like the woman is extension of yourself in a way. Of you self-value in this case. I am struggling with the same thing so not judging, but I see this so often in the pickup community. You don't really care that much that your job is 7/10, your health or your friends are 7/10, why does the woman have to be 10/10? It often is because we project our own self worth onto her. What is your experience with dating/being in relationship with those top tier woman. I did date couple of them myself and I found that they are usually terrible at relationships. In a way the sheer options they have and the constant admiration and validations corrupts the soul. If I had to be born a woman in my next life and my intention was to have a healthy, mature relationships I would probably choose being 6/10 over 9/10 lol.

That is impossible to answer. There are just way too many different woman, even among the "most" attractive ones. Some of them will care very much, some of them really don't. Obviously those who do not are not as visible because they do not have instagrams full of expensive things etc. But yeah, if you want to have a stable, healthy relationship, you have to be somewhat stable - but not just financially. Another question is though, why do you desire these specific woman for a relationship. Me personally, I am not really a materialistic person and I would not enjoy company of such woman. I feel like often we desire these "top-level" woman just to prove our own worth to ourselfs, not out of genuine liking.

Curious about this conformity, would you expand on that? Also what do you consider excessive? I never liked the big tattooes covering big parts of body. I enjoy the cute small ones girls sometimes get.

I feel like it is so common these days that it is impossible to make any generalisations.

There are many ways to showcase competence though. Money is not really the smartest way to go about dating. If you want to have a stable long-term relationship, that is.

Fair, I missed that, sorry. The issue also is that most people lack self awareness to recognize when they indulge with it as coping mechanism.

It is a very common coping mechanism like anything you listed to escape internal shame, pain and all the uncomfortable feelings. I am not completely against porn and masturbation, though I think it is just better to masturbate without consuming porn. It also replaces the need to meet someone, to have sex etc.

Yeah, social media addiction is crazy out of control. That being said I would not consider watching porn for 30 minutes a day healthy either.

I feel like the issue is that humas are not really built to moderate such things. It is very easy to get addicted. It's quite similiar to social media you have listed in your list of "worse things".

Go ahead and define your own morals. I don't really pickup girls in the clubs so can't say myself. On dates I don't mind having drink or two with a woman, but I would never try to get her drunk in order to sleep with her.

Everyone has different morals, what do you think about it? It also depends what do you mean by drunk. I would not have an issue with w a woman who had 1-2 drinks to ease nervousness and anxiety. I wouldn't go for someone who is clearly drunk.

You have to learn how to screen for woman who are good at relatioships and not just chasing novelty all the time.

That is just having a good self esteem. You don't need game for that.

Agreed. Many of the characteristics that are praised as part of the game are quite unhealthy and will make you worse off relationship wise. I struggle with this quite a bit. And a lot of aspects of game work on unhealthy people mainly (which is majority of people so PUAs dont give a shit). A lot of woman would compliment me on how exicting I am. How they never know what I will do or say next. Then they get surprised that this is a shit characteristic trait for relationships and carries over a lot of internal instability.

Of course you can. But the more important question is. What do YOU want to share with the woman you are talking to? Not what you need to share to get some sort of positive reaction or avoid negative one.

@LordFall I do not dispute that entirely. I just think once you heal, the dating stops being about survival that much. I am not bypassing anything, I have been through pickup, I've seen the emptiness of it.

@Natasha Tori Maru Yes. I feel like attractives is quite a bit of projection. I don't feel good enough. I don't feel safe in this world. So I search for a value in the world to anchor myself in it. If I get a valuable woman (attractive according to society) that mean I am valuable and thus good enough. Do you yourself have experience with healing attachment trauma?

@LordFall I am not sure what happens then since I have not reached that stage yet. But I would argue that a big chunk of desire for very attractive partner is a desire to prove yourself, to others and yourself that you are good enough and attractive. Once you heal, you might be screening for compatibility and aligned values way more than for attractivness. Though it might still be relevant. I can't say myself. But I don't see in any way how this approach will hinder your attractivness. Quite contrary, I feel like this is the ultimate way to become attractive. If you are truly happy and content in yourself and do not have any need to prove yourself...that is gonna draw a lot of people in. Like, what else is there to learn after this?

@Spiritual WarriorMost people however have to go through it to realize it is not the answer. However many people get stuck in the endless chase of options. I am just trying to bring out that perspective. I believe on such forum it is okay. Wouldnt really post this on pickup forum.

@Spiritual Warrior Thanks for the summary but you have it other way around actually. It is not the lack of success with woman that has created trauma or wounds in you. It is wounds and trauma that drive you towards trying to externalize your value and seek to gain it. That can manifest by desiring to have a attractive partner or a lot of them, or sucessfull career or anything else really. By any means go out there and get your thing with woman, burn the karma if you feel like you need to. But do realize that it is not in itself deeply healing in itself and many of the insecurities will prevail. You do not feel shame by success. It does not work like that. Unfortunatly, otherwise I would be more than happy to just keep sleeping around.

@Natasha Tori Maru I have been studying attachment theory in depth recently. I can clearly now see that the entire "pickup industry" is essentially an attempt to heal insecurity and emotional wounds through external success (getting woman etc.).

See this is exactly where our views differ. A codependence is a emotional wound stemming from a neglect in childhood. Having "abundance" si a very superficial solution which does not really heal the problem. It is like having a brain tumor and taking painkillers for the related headache. You can easily see it with a lot of attractive woman who have options, and you could argue way better options than average PUA, yet they still have codependent behaviour in their relationships. Seen that many times. A healthy human being with good self esteem and regulated nervous system is not dependent on a partner nor is he/she dependent on a abundance of choices for their emotional wellbeing. He/she is simply emotionally self sufficient.

Absolutely. I am not saying success with wonam or social skills are wrong. I just think it is not the answer people need.

I have been part of the most conscious "game" group of my city. Obviously I don't really know what it is in other places, but guys around me are not running some routines and other shit. Yet they are all broken inside. I can see that clearly. Especially after last half year when I was studying deeply attachment wounds etc. You craving a woman either to be your girlfriend, or to have a harem or to have a lot of choices is a sign of the trauma. It is not healthy. I am not saying you specifically, just a general example. Like answer to yourself honestly. Why do you want to "have" this? To have the skill to attract woman? To know how to engage them effectively etc. Why is it important at all? If you would sit down most of these guys and dove deep with them (which requires a lot of self awareness which is practically impossible at large-scale), it would come down to - feeling worthy, feeling chosen, feeling like I am good enough. Most men, be it in the game or outside of it are "using" woman to externalize their own self worth. "I feel not good enough inside of me, but if I manage to learn how to get with attractive woman, that means I am good enough and I can relax for a bit". It's a drug. It is used to soothe pain and to avoid looking inside. I am not gonna advocate against guys learning this shit because they are not gonna skip this stage and go beyond probably. Well, most will never get over this. But to praise it on this forum as some ultimate solution to a satisfied life is quite delusional.

If you do so to not lose her or to keep her loyal, I believe it is not coming from a healthy place. But my opinions are quite extreme in this regard. I have been and to certain degree still am involved in my local "game" community. I believe that an emotionally healthy person with good self esteem would never learn game. Or at least I haven't met one. Obviously you can "grow through it" so to speak and see that the issue was never really about woman and get a help needed. But it is rare. Also this game being needed for a good relationship going is way too overblown. A lot of learning on how to be good with woman on the front actually reinforces the unhealthy patterns that manifest in relationships. I think the issue is that most people are simply way too traumatized and unhealed to hold a proper relationship. And so in place of that they expect to have this thing we call love or passion or whatever. From my experience that is not a healthy dynamic and not something that is gonna keep a long healhty relationship (mind you, those are very rare). In a way yes, game will help you keep the woman in the relationship. But a unhealthy one for the most part. It is like giving a junkie another high to keep her around.