SOUL

You talk so beautifully and eloquently about this life experience in integrated ways so what leads you to believe that the 'spiritual journey' is separate from living life? There is nothing to 'do' to 'be present' and even if things in life distract our awareness away from presence. Integrating presence with normal life of being a mom and wife is your 'spiritual journey'.....your mission impossible so to speak.,... If you choose to accept it. Being present will only blossom through your experience of the life you are living and the challenge is not letting life distract you from presence.

In a relativistic way denying suggests separation but accepting suggests unity.

Is it really a denying of the self or is it accepting a presence of being that transcends the sense of self? Hehe

Well, I said realize presence but to initially recognize presence can lead to making It real. Although presence is awakened as a direct experience when it is realized in us. Do you judge your judging? It's not about the types or amount of activity and content that happens in the mind, it's the attachment to it, the story can distract from being present. Even the narrative of not attaching to the story can be a distraction if we allow it. The mind doesn't want the simplicity of presence, it wants the complicated story and will generate it in everything.

Being isn't doing, it's being. Being is an expression of awareness in the manifest existence so when we realize our awareness of being in the present moment it is not doing anything, it's being aware in the present moment, it's a pure expression of presence. The story we tell about it doesn't create It or add to presence but can only serve to distract from presence. The story of a doer or no doer, of free will or not, of 'god' or devils is just the mind's imagination conjuring up a narrative to identify with. Aware of being present in the moment, the experience of presence, doesn't require a story. We can 'do' all sorts of meditative activities to practice 'presence', to exercise our mind to attune to awareness of being present in the moment but presence is a spontaneous expression of consciousness in the manifest. Don't think to much about the story or how to conceptualise it, just be presence. As you go about your day whether the mind is full or empty, noisy or silent, active or still and with every situation and conditions you find yourself in just realize 'presence'. So I would suggest just avoid all the story telling about what is real or illusion, true self, no self, God, free will and blah blah blah. Be.....just be. Awareness of being present. Realize presence.

Two of the most tedious speakers in my opinion on the same stage is barely tolerable for me but I listened to it nonetheless because of the significance of the event. That being said it wasn't surprising that Peterson offered the same tired ideological driven partisan rhetoric he is known for while Zizek at least offered a more nuanced and balanced criticism of both economic systems. It also completely amazes me that Peterson can find such visceral disgust and suggest a moral failing from what he perceives as hypocrisies on left while completely ignoring them and often praising things in his ideological religious preference as he simultaneously criticizes in others. Zizek appears to be coming from a more traditional philosophical viewpoint in that he offers his criticisms and praises on the merits of the ideas and not from a tribalist ideological bias the way Peterson does. As far as the happiness portion of it, it seems like both of them think that happiness is a byproduct of materialistic and ideological conditions that allow for it in an indirect way. Although sufficient needs iand meaning hasn't proven to be enough in bringing genuine well-being if our Western first world experience is any evidence. So it was probably that the question posed in this debate wasn't suitable in providing a platform for these speakers to find a more productive and salient way of addressing the nature of well-being or they are ill-equipped in their philosophy to address it in a way that departs from conventional wisdom which hasn't really been working anyway.

Your doubt is an indicator of your own absence of experience, not mine. The reason for any story, narrative and Mythos is meaning. The purpose for calling subjective experience as truth and projecting it onto others is justification.

I have experienced what he's talking about and that's why I recognize the storytelling and belief projecting as well as the reason and purpose for it. @Mikael89

Haha yeah that guy is kind of a dark creepy storyteller but he is another storytelling dualist that believes they know the truth and tries to tell everybody else what their truth is just like the founder of this forum does. As it quite often is with people who speak on the subjective spiritual matters there is a small bit of something many can relate to but then they go on to construct a belief system around it which is then projected onto others as if it's a universal truth and it really is just a personal truth.

So what does this state that cannot be spoken about help with someone having a happy life? Are you suggesting that only if someone has direct experience of this state that they can have a happy life?

The original topic is about a 'happy life' and 'enlightenment' which this discussion serves as a clear example why so few people have a 'happy life' from this type of 'enlightenment' discourse. It is spoken of as something that is so esoteric and abstract when the reality of it isn't so complicated. A happy life can be correlated to the amount of self suffering one experiences. Having all of these esoteric and abstract complexities to contend with can be a source of self suffering because it distracts from the obvious simple nature of being since the mind is consumed with imagining so distracts awareness from being present. What you call the 'prior' state is really simultaneously happening in consciousness and we can 'view' the present moment with this clarity. Our awareness is the observer of consciousness that is without the conceptualization of the mind unless we believe the mind's conjuring so identify with and attach to it. Awareness of being present without trying to control the mind or understand complex concepts is that 'prior' you speak of, it's accessible in the present moment. Not reflexively believing everything the mind produces is a empowering way to bring about the cessation of self suffering. It is quite simple to explain the simple way. It may not be quite that easy to create an inner experience that embodies this type of being present because we are constantly lured into the conceptual world through the mind's activities. So that 'prior' state is a 'present' state that we can view from at any moment even while the mind weaves it's story. Not being attached to the story leads to that cessation of self suffering which isn't the same thing as the cessation of the mind's activity in creating the story. Believing we have to cease the mind and it's activity to be 'happy' may be one of the most common inducers of self suffering in seekers. The simplicity of not reflexively attaching and identifying with what happens in the mind is enough to empower the cessation of self suffering in us which correlates to a 'happy life'. This can be a genuine experience for us whether we understand any of the complex concepts or not and whether we reach what many consider 'enlightened' or not.

No, I'm not saying anything about somewhere or nowhere or anything like that. That's your perception of what I said but not what I said. You warned... then you proceeded to provide what you warned about.. so maybe you were being kind in warning about what was coming... sort of like a trigger warning. haha Sure, we can use phrases to portray things metaphorically but it still using images and expectations to describe the indescribable when a description may become a distraction. You weren't pointing to that? Why not? It's a very powerful point! I'm glad I made it then. The images, concepts and expectations we have can limit us in experiencing joy. As we grow in awareness and awaken in consciousness our perspective changes. It can happen that the previous perspectives we once viewed from are completely gone and what is obvious to us now in the present perspective isn't a stumbling block but it isn't obvious to a previous perspective and can be a stumbling block. Awakening to integrate all perspectives is holistic but it's often a challenge to recognize where anyone is on the path so I prefer to speak in the simplest of terms with the least amount of description so as not become a stumbling block distraction..... but you can do whatever you see fit and my friend will just have to accept that. hehe

hehe

I see your pointer... but you fail to see my point. You warn about images and expectations then you provide images and expectations. Your pointer about images and expectations is a very powerful one in recognizing how our ideas and expectations do actually limit and separate us from experiencing genuine joy. If you had said just that or expounded on that point of how those things will either allow us to find joy or hide it from us I wouldn't have asked you that question... for a friend. Although, you followed it up with some mystical sounding nothing and everything clear crystal stuff. Why set that conceptual expectation? You first part was limitation busting! Then you went and built more limitation in it's place when you had a very empowering insight to start with.

....um...but you caution someone to be careful then give them the very thing you warn about.

I guess it all depend on how one defines 'happy' and 'enlightenment' but someone can experience an enduring joy without being enlightened even though some awakening would take place for this to be. .......um.... so, are you careful about the story images and expectations that include clear translucent crystals and containing nothing and everything? Just asking for a friend.

It's a challenge to find people who are in a similar space along the path since we are all at different intervals with many variations of 'path' we are taking and modern life doesn't always offer up the opportunity for mystical 'fellowship', So in the absence of deep metaphysical connections in a spiritual community setting I allow for simple interactions to express some 'bliss' with. I have some really amazingly magical moments with random people in the course of the day which carries a feeling of connectedness to the time in solitude. Transcending our own ideas and often expectations about what a spiritual 'setting' should be opens us up to it being present everywhere in every moment.

Haha

The dude just deleted a ton of videos and uploaded a video of text about changing his content in the future to not be antagonistic towards 'personalities'. It seems that he was getting some copyright dings from someone or few he's been criticizing and it likely would have resulted in his channel being taken down if he didn't delete that content that included it. This may have been the motivation behind his reassessment of his content and the direction of his channel but it's great that he recognizes the distraction of that activity even if it came externally in awakening him to it. I didn't watch very many of his videos because his repetitive criticisms were cringy to me even if accurate sometimes. It will be interesting to see what direction he goes without his 'debunker' identity on the channel but at least the targets of his criticisms will have one less detractor making 'negative' content about them. I'm doing to watch some of his own spiritual path descriptions since it's pretty much all he has left on his channel and it's easy to know which are those videos.

Don't overthink it, @Aakash , it's not about understanding it, it's just being it. 'True self' is a buzzword label the ego wants to create identity through and has a complicated method of things one must do to get it 'right'. Although being is simple, even a child can just be in the moment but the 'adult' mind wants to make it a complex process of this, that and the other thing so it's an accomplishment it achieves. It's simply aware being present in the moment.

He who? Who he? @Inliytened1 The he you speak of didn't speak of being here not in spirit not in theory not even in word once in passing. Nothing doesn't exist so what's to think about it and being doesn't require concentration to be, being transcends the activity of the mind. Just be aware of presence in the moment....of being now. All of manifest existence is ultimately a willful toss of the fated bouncing die with everything on the line and nothing in hand.

Goddevil is.....haha

So you are a dualist?

............. ? !

I'm not going to speak for the original poster but if I may interject something from my own experience. Life is lived like before except now it's from just being present in the moment without attachment to the story. This doesn't mean I have to eradicate or demonize the story but just not to attach to the story and keep my awareness on the presence of being in the moment. The mind will continue to conjure up the story for awareness to attach to in self identity but I abide in unattached awareness of being as continuously as I can. It may not be an easy thing at first to be present but eventually it will become a more natural conscious experience and the mind's conjuring will have less and less power to distract from being present. Then eventually the mind will transform into a subconscious that conjures up a perspective that is agreement with being present in the moment. When that harmony is experienced throughout consciousness it allows for a type of transcendence that couldn't be imagined before that harmony exists. In that harmony there is no conflict between awareness and mind within our experience of being. I hope that helps clarify.