SOUL

...you just prefer the esoteric "life force" that "moves" us story....it's just another expression of the imagination. Do the words from books force their way into our mind? Does food crawl into our mouth and chew itself? Do symphonies get composed by us without our participation? Everything can be framed to fit a story. We can also transcend the separation of the free will/no choice dualism upon awakening to the oneness as it is.....or at least that's how the story goes. Peace

It's obvious to say it's brought about by life, what conditioning isn't.....but 'the body's natural intelligence'? You put much trust into something that has produced very little results. There are untold numbers through the millennia who are miserable with self suffering their whole life and so few that are liberated. The natural instinct is to attach to identity, to sustain self so motivate us to keep the body alive and to transcend that drive is despised and rejected by the ego. This notion that we have no option in it echoes the Christian concept that god predetermines the 'chosen' and not we choose to be drawn to god....curious. Hm These concepts you describe may be your experience but not what I be and I experience liberation from self suffering. You say in your initial post about your words that it can never be 'truth'.....in that I would agree. This isn't to say you don't share some helpful insights, you do but consider there are many paths to the mountain top. Peace.

So how does one bring about this 'new conditioning' in non-doership if one has no free will to choose it? Hint.... this is a trick question.

All this imaginary nothing matters, it's all the same, it doesn't exist stuff just gives rise to the it does matter, it's all different and it does exist inevitability in the mind..... transcend the hustle.

All of us are born without an inner voice and ego so we all are born "enlightened" if that's your criteria to be it. It develops over time and I don't naturally have one either but it didn't prevent me from developing an ego, identity, attachment or self suffering. Liberation is more than just quieting the mind.

A lingering pain or discomfort is suffering and the type of suffering you are talking about is self suffering. Even though it seems nearly impossible it's actually much simpler to cease self suffering than physical suffering.

Oh that's just a story.... one where you tell others they are missing it but you know the truth then tell them it's really difficult to communicate with someone who thinks they have it all figured out and they aren't open to your stories....you have quite the imagination.

You keep calling it a story... what do you expect? That's what we are doing... descriptions are a story... but you fail to recognize your own story telling. All this you said to me is just a story, it's imaginary and this 'recontexualization' concept is a story you tell yourself which you call truth to satisfy the ego that it 'knows' it. The story that you have a 'meta' view which others are missing is imaginary. The difference is my story exists even if it isn't told, the present exists, the past and future don't even though they are all one thing it presents itself as...the present. Manifest existence is in the present moment, the past and future are imaginary. Yes, they are all one thing as the manifest existence but to experience the past or future we do it in our imagination, the present can punch you in the face...without the imagination. Reality doesn't require your belief, it just is. If you are going to tell me this is a story just punch yourself in the face already. Of course we are telling stories to each other, that's what discussion is, story telling....but you believe yours are the 'truth' which you 'know' and others 'missing'.

I prefer to not use that term very often because it can be interpreted in many ways but legend has it Buddha said 'all beings are enlightened'.

Nope.. it's just another thing the ego wants us to 'do' to accomplish it. Then ironically it creates a distraction from the focused attention which in turn it uses to task us to get back and 'do' the focusing again.

Moving isness.....

You are trying to make a subtle slight of hand, the questions I ask are not ideas to believe in....being just is. Although for me to communicate it to another I conceptualize it so yes have ideas but the ideas don't contribute to being present. These aren't a system of ideas that are believed to be.......it's just being. Don't even have to say present because there isn't any other way to be other than present. The more clear description of it is 'being presence'. There's no thinking about the 'present', no attention to focus on it, no beliefs about it. It's just presence of being which one can experience. Any ideas I share about it are in hopes for someone to let go of the ideas about it and just be.... presence.

The past and the future doesn't exist, there is only present...an unfolding, ever changing present we perceive as having 'time'. Unfolding present creates experience that leaves impressions on our bodies and psyche which we call memories but those are experiences that are just in the imagination.

We don't need all them.... we don't need to say be present.... we can't be anything but present. There isn't even a need to tell someone to be because being just is.... to be or not to be is not even a question. The ego desires all those other things to accomplish, to understand, to examine... to 'do'.. to identify with. All that other stuff are just stories... 'truth' is a story that we tell ourselves that we 'know' what really is. As soon as you are done being afraid it's not the case you can let go of that yearning desire that you aren't complete, fulfilled and at peace..... so just be it.

From a perspective of the ego yes being present is kind of boring because it happens without its participation so doesn't feed it's identify. Once one is liberated from existential yearning and has well being that transcends self suffering everything becomes an expression of that well being so isn't boring at all.

Does being present even neex an ideology? Maybe we can ask the dog. When is one not present? Even when distracted from it being is still present. Does that make it attachment even if there is no identification? Maybe the present is the consciousnesses' attachment and identification with the manifest.

One that happens whether it's told or not.

What's the dogma of being present? There are no codes or tenets, it's just the natural state of our being.... we are a being that is present. We can't leave the present but the ego's story telling is to distract from the present through contextualizing the past and imagining the future. Those two other bullet points seem pointless, explain how they relate to what I am speaking about.

Any 'insights' we have are merely our own perception of our experience, it's not any type of universal 'map' that everyone can follow. We can share our insights to find others who resonate with similar imagery and concepts but to suggest one perception is absolute truth and another is illusion can lead to people seeking the imagery of conceptualization instead of the experience of being present. As we awaken to the experience of being present our imagery and conceptualization will evolve with it so to focus too much on just one marker of our own personal path and teaching it as an absolute truth isn't awakened to the oneness of all marks and all paths. We don't all share the exact same perception in experience so don't share the exact same imagery, concepts or paths even though we share in the exact same oneness.

Your ego fixates on being present? How do you know that if it's distracts from knowing?

Ask you know what? You capitalized the words absolute and love as if this indicates it's something more than the common usage of the words..... that and the obsession with 'knowing' is just more ego fixation to distract from being present.

@Anton Rogachevski This really does sound like something the ego would fixate on to obsess over instead of just accept presence of being.

Know spelled backwards is 'wonk'... which is defined as a person preoccupied with arcane details or procedures in a specialized field... ironically that's what this forum is filled with. haha

Jordan's postmodern belief system that hierarchical myth is more true than the fact of reality because it's more useful didn't work as well as he hoped. Not to say that he is an example of it but this happening does lead me to wonder if there is ever situations where someone can be driven by forces beyond their control to be so obsessed with their self identity and cannot transcend it without substances. I don't wish anyone ill will, I hope he has well being in life so that how he treats others and behaves in society is an expression of his healed soul.

It's very revealing how the conservative religious right have rallied around an immoral corrupt conman and a drug addicted pop psychologist grifter as their leaders and mentors. I hope he can resolve his dependency issues but if he does I suspect he will just use the 'come back' to continue with the bigoted grift machine he's built which the 'believers' will buy into again.