SOUL

Interesting how the thread starter seems to believe their interpretation over another interpretation of the same belief, going as far as to compare the other interpretation as if it is the same as an opposing belief or unbelief and saying it is deserving of the same 'punishment' as opposing or unbelief. The moralizing of it and the punishment for not conforming to their interpretation may be more dramatic but it isn't that much different in behavior to the way that people on this forum behave when interacting with people who have a differing interpretation of their same belief. It is more drastic to say someone will be tortured in hell for eternity than it is to say you will stay asleep in illusion but the same psychological mechanism is working in their mind that drives them to perceive the differing perspective in this way and behave in this similar pattern.

We can apply our understanding of this reality of illusion onto the ideological and metaphysical so we cease telling other people 'no, you're wrong' about the mystical experiences we have. Know and accept that the very same exact thing will appear differently to each one of us.

How is the reaction to this type of differing conceptualization that is rarely offered here any different to how so many on this forum react to the slightest difference in the conceptualizations that are often shared here? Take a moment to examine our own reaction to being exposed to differing perspectives.

@vibv Don't tell Leo that because it appears from his perception of consciousness there are degrees which would suggest multiple....non-experiences of varying degrees, otherwise it would be in the absolute infinite fullness. The mind loves to create milestones, so it can chart the appearance of progress and imagine it finds its way back to something it doesn't have or loses, since it is a challenge to abide in continually because of the mind's own activity. @VeganAwake A journey without a path and no steps to take that isn't traveled and has no destination. Oh and you may be too generous...it seems like the conditioned mind falls for it every. dam. time.

Something to be aware of is the propensity of the self conscious, also can be referred to as the ego, to take any certain type of experience that mystics talk about and turn it into an activity that creates separation between some imagined goal. Enlightenment, however one will define it, is essentially a 'non-activity' that appears in the mind as a goal we don't currently have experience of then tries to 'do something' to attain it. Enlightenment isn't special in this regard, even god realization can be conceptualized by the mind this same way. Some may even say that both of those are 'non-experiences' as well, which adds to the mind's conceptualized separation from them because the mind is an activity generator by its nature. Its stimuli purpose is to motivate behavior so is counterproductive for those realizations. This isn't to make a statement about whether either are actual or illusion, just that the mind will seize upon anything mystical and conceptualize it as separated from it then having to do something to attain it. It is just what it does, not good or bad, right or wrong, just is what it is.

You really just said that? Just wow, too funny. Maybe you can explain to me how you perceive that your use was nondual and mine was dual...this should be interesting. Haha I would love to continue this exchange, but right now I have a long day of enjoying the amazing weather ahead of me so will return tonight and read any replies to my responses. I won't guarantee I'll have the energy to reply to them until morning, though. Peace brother.

I used the metaphor you used, if it's bad, then why did you use it? It is kind of bad because the more resistance a bulb has the more light it shows which is the opposite with awakening. The less resistance we have the more consciousness it reveals in us, but it's still obvious that our degree of conscious awakening doesn't change the absolute of consciousness. Again, it was your metaphor.

You replied to my post that replied to someone else and then seemed to get manic about our subsequent exchange. Yes, actions reveal how you feel, that is something you don't need me for so leave me out of it. Are we done here?

How bright a light bulb is doesn't reveal to us the qualities of electricity that flows through it in creating the light, it shows us the qualities of the bulb. So pointing to the bulb in trying to explain electricity fails to recognize the nature of electricity available isn't shown to us through the amount or quality of light the bulb displays. Us as the metaphorical bulb with how much 'awakeness' someone has doesn't tell us how much consciousness is available to us, it just shows how much consciousness, or 'brightness', we show. A rock and us have the same exact amount and quality of consciousness available, but obviously there is a difference in how aware, awakened or 'conscious' of it we display. So, yes, everything is consciousness but not equally conscious yet the degree of conscious something or someone is, does not reveal the absolute fullness of consciousness that exists and permeates throughout reality which is not dependent on the 'bulbs' ability to display it. It really is surprising how simple obvious this is and still is so illusive to grasp.

People trust that their perception is the truth, it's a natural mental process. If they were to have the state of mind that constantly doubts their perception they wouldn't be able to function in life. So I'm not going to criticize someone for believing their own perception is the truth, although I find it interesting how vehemently some will deny others perception. Especially with people who claim to be some sort of spiritually 'awake', one would think they are more aware of the potential diversity of perception, even while trusting their own perception.

A pattern of existence, a form, sure. Yet manifest existence in all its infinite forms is an expression of consciousness, the actual physical fruit of consciousness. In the bounty that is this 'universal thing' there are beings that have minds which perceive limitations that can present themselves as blockages to their awareness expanding to its infinite potential. The variations appear as a virtual infinite array of characteristics of mind that affect the behavior of those beings, without judging this as a negative or positive, it just is. Also, whether that conscious being aware of its own behavior can modify perception from a previous state to an intentional subsequent state is debated by those beings.

Are you ok? Just be well with whatever it is you believe...leave me out of it.

@Razard86 Believe what whatever you want but it's only in your imagination. Reality doesn't change because of your perception of it. You delude yourself if you think a few words creates an 'aha gotcha' for you...haha

Us being less or more aware, 'awake' or conscious, whichever the word one prefers to use, at different moments in different states is a relative condition about the degree of awareness in us...not consciousness having conditional degrees. What you suggest is that there are parts of reality that are less or more consciousness than others, which cannot possibly be if everything, all of reality, is consciousness. It's absolute infinite. Any perception of consciousness in degrees is just our awareness of it, not consciousness being it. The relative is an illusion, it appears in degrees and states of conditions. Which doesn't mean it isn't 'real', its reality is illusory, it does not appear as it really is. Consciousness appearing in degrees is an illusion of one's relative conditional conscious state within the 'dream'. This is so obvious it's hard to see how you of all people dare to deny it. I guess one can confuse or conflate that conscious and consciousness as being exactly the same, materialists do and even the dictionary meaning pretty much does. So it's understandable.

I hope you don't take this as me 'correcting' you, it is me just clarifying what you said because it seems like this point can be misunderstood without the clarification. If consciousness is everything and it is infinite there are no degrees of consciousness, it's always absolute infinite in its genuine nature. Our awareness, which modulates our perception of reality, can wax or wane, which alters the bandwidth of our perception so we can awaken or slumber to reality. Though, consciousness may appear in layers or degrees to us but it really is just our awareness of it that creates the appearance of them, not consciousness itself. So really, in this context the illusion would be that consciousness is in degrees when in reality its constant state is absolute infinite. I recognize you realize this but I understand how words can be a stumbling block.

@Princess Arabia To the edit part in your last post yea but allow me to unpack that a little more if I can. We realize our well being in just being it, so not dependent on the conditions of life. Our well being, our fulfillment is not dependent on what we know or don't know, do or not do, there is no sense of lacking so the desire that causes self suffering is satiated so to speak. The love and joy in anything we do happen to be doing is not derived from it which can be fickle and temporal, we are being that presence of fulfillment so bring the love and joy to the activity whatever that happens to be. Now let's see if I can bring it full circle and touch on the theme of the trippy wayback Leo video just posted here on mastery. He says that to master something we need to love the process, otherwise we won't do it. There is an emphasis on the love of the process itself. I offer that it's not trying to squeeze the love out of the things in life we are doing, it is bringing the love to it that is pouring out of the fulfillment through us and onto everything we do even if we don't do anything at all. This is the mastery of being.

To be fair, this is where language often feels insufficient for describing reality, but I will give it a go anyway. So please pardon me if I add more confusion. We have our perception and it is our 'all that is' yet it is not the infinite 'all that is'. Simultaneously, we can experience the fullness of well being, fulfillment or 'perfect' of the infinite 'all that is' no matter what our specific perception is at any moment even if it isn't the infinite perception. Now it's going to get even more abstract, so again, pardon me. 'What is' verifies itself by being 'what is' and this is how the perception's conceptual framework of the mind's belief in 'truth' comes about. It gets its paradigm of understanding from experience and trusts that it is 'true'...the mind 'believes' its perception is what is...whether infinite or not. We can expand our conscious awareness to increase our perception of what is but that isn't necessary for well being. We can use all sorts of methods of physical investigation, contemplation, meditation, medication and celebration to verify our perception is 'true' yet that isn't required for well being. All the 'truth seeking' and 'reality changing' of our conscious lives spiritual activity is a 'doing' that is not needed for and will be transcended by simply being...well. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone, but there it is.

This wasn't quite my point and I didn't really say that, this would just be a variation of the 'strip all beliefs and concepts' idea I was providing an alternative to. The mind creates belief and concept all by itself even as we grow in our spiritual journey, the ego trumpets them in our conscious mind for us to empower through agreement with them. We don't need to do anything for the mind to do it, that is its natural way of behaving. I merely suggested we don't need to agree with it in our awareness because endorsing it, agreeing with it, is the 'doing' of our awareness. Yes, it isn't lost on me that I am agreeing with the concept of language to communicate to you this conceptual frame of just 'being' but such is life. Hah

It's probably that you begrudgingly say I'm not wrong but since you love your pet theories so much, you don't want to let them go, right? Spiritual ego is so attached to the beliefs and concepts of its identity, it can't imagine a reality without them, even though they are constantly changing as we gain more experience....but it is the 'truth' as far as the mind trusts as true. What you call 'limited' I call 'simple'. It is so simple, it is the simplest thing one can do....not doing. It's definitely not easy even though it's simple, the mind will do everything in its ability to get us to contend with it. It wants us to empower it, to endorse it, to believe it to be the truth! It wants us to do anything but to just sit in stillness, observing. Abiding in awareness of being presence is its 'ego death'. I do consider the consequences, there would be less arguing and fighting about beliefs and concepts, no actual wars in the world about ideology. There would be less contention and strife because someone doesn't have the same exact perception as you. The infinite variation of perception wouldn't disappear, just the misery produced from encountering the variety would dissipate. Liberation, which is the cessation of self suffering, would be realized for more people than the current climate of contention. We would celebrate the infinite variation of perspectives instead of rushing around telling people 'naw' because theirs differs from ours. I'm not saying you are wrong either, I'm just explaining the consequences you asked me to consider.

@Razard86 People confuse the difference between our mind's perception of reality, how malleable this perception is and conflate it to what actual reality that is. Yes, we only experience reality through our perception of it, how it appears to us, but reality doesn't change because our perception of it does and us changing our perception of it doesn't make the manifest existence conform to our perception of it. Reality doesn't change to what is perceived, it just is what it is regardless of how one perceives what it is.

@Princess Arabia The idea of 'having to strip away all beliefs and concepts' is just more belief and concept. Just like your signature says, it's the idea we have to do something to be. So many layers of doing, beliefs and concepts rolled into the notion that it is a preferred state, a higher state and 'truer' state than just being present as it is. Then people go around teaching and preaching it as some absolute truth that if you don't adhere to, you aren't as awake as they are. Our mind will constantly generate concepts and will always rely on beliefs to understand experience, even the mystical direct experience that some see as a special exception to the typical kind. These also evolve along the way of our mystical journey. It's the ego creating something to 'do' that separates present moment awareness from some imagined other conscious experience. Even if some suggest it's free from belief and concept, it still is just another limiting belief and concept that imagines a separation between two different states of consciousness. It's one that sounds 'higher' though, so it appeals to the spiritual ego. We can just be present in awareness and let the mind do what it will do, simply observe and cease to contend with its machinations. There is nothing we have to 'do' to abide in awareness, for being presence. Sure, eventually the mind will reflect back to us what we give it through present experience, so why give it more belief and concepts, no matter how 'high' they may appear. The 'falling away' of limiting belief and concept is a decent description of what manifests in our mind as we reside in being presence. There is just nothing to 'do' for the falling away to happen, it's like trying to get a pool of water to become still through some sort of activity. All that does is create more waves and ripples in the pool, there is nothing to do for being. It just is and we abide in awareness of being presence. I'm certain someone will come along to tell me how I'm wrong and not awake but…haha.

Look at all these artificial intelligence chat bots typing out stuff they think they understand...if only they knew that they didn't really know.

Except I have the recipes...

Everyone here claiming to be AWAKE giggity giggity Absolute Squidward quagmire...all out of here

@BlessedLion Someone doesn't need to understand anything for well being...just be it. Understanding is merely scenery on the journey, well being is enjoying the trip. For whatever that is worth to you.