hundreth

Agreed re: macro factors. What we've heard from the Israelis about this school bombing is that a large percentage of those eliminated were Hamas commanders and militants. I don't think anyone is hiding from this bombing, but instead Israel has pointed out why. Of course the numbers can be debated and it doesn't make it any less gruesome when bystanders are caught in the crossfire. I also don't think we're saying that these atrocities are inherent in Arab society. Moreso these atrocities are inherent where there is religious extremism. Palestinians have had much of this governing their society, and now we see as Israel adopts a more religious stance the atrocities ramp up as well.

In some ways it isn't. I've never been surprised that Hamas would situate themselves inside schools and hospitals as it makes sense when you're cornered. It's something brought up and discussed because it highlights the challenges when trying to fight a force like that.

I said they incentivize any Palestinian to murder Jews in cold blood because their families will be taken care of. A rogue actor can infiltrate an Israeli home, stab an entire family to death... and his family will receive paychecks forever. They will name a street after him and call him a martyr. In addition, yes they have their own military aspirations. The PLO is a wolf in sheep's clothing, albeit very thinly veiled. The logic about the UK ambassador part is self defeating, as you consider Israel bad while having representation everywhere.

I guess. In the grand scheme of things, and given everything that's happened occurrences like this are going to be mostly ignored. It is extremely fucked up. The difference between this and other war crimes is there is a self preservation aspect to it. It's easy to forget these soldiers are 18 year old kids, and in the grand scheme of things this war should be a meaningless part of their lives they move past. They aren't robots. They are going to do whatever it takes to stay alive. I think morally they have a responsibility not to - easier said than done. The war crimes that stand out are the ones where you harm civilians when there is no danger to your own life. You do it purely from a place of anger or hatred. I am surprised they haven't come up with a better way to handle situations like this though.

I just showed you how they weren't nearly as moderate as you think they are, but you ignored it.

Sure, it would be lovely to negotiate many things but there's no one to negotiate with at the moment. Even if you had the most progressive Israeli leader who wanted to grant statehood, there's no partner to discuss those parameters with. I think the third party idea is also the best one for how to proceed in Gaza, but not surprisingly no one wants to be there. Especially with a frothed up Hamas still running the show. We're talking about rogue actors infiltrating Israeli homes and stabbing families while they're asleep. Funding that is of course evil. When Israelis protest accountability for those Israeli soldiers facing sexual abuse allegations, it's just as bad. The PLO incentivizes this behavior by granting those families paychecks for life. I don't know where you got this majority statistic. But even if Fatah was a motivation, they immediately started shooting rockets into Israel. Is that not a punch in the face either? If Palestinians aren't violent while establishing someone truly capable of negotiating on their behalf for peace, then something can develop from it. I don't deny that Israel has thwarted this to some extent, but in the absence of a peace partner there's not much which can be improved. There's levels to this. There's a huge difference between disdain for a political machine and dehumanizing an entire ethnic group. The Palestinian youth has been brainwashed with the most twisted perceptions of their neighbors. It makes establishing a relationship almost impossible. A Palestinian leader can't bring themselves to tell their population they're now working towards friendship with the evil Zionists and have a two state partition. What Arafat used to tell his constituents is that you make peace now so you can wage war later. Arafat used the Islamic concept of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah. This was the text of Arafat’s famous Johannesburg speech in May 1994—after he signed the Oslo Accords in September 1993: This is the reality of what Israel is up against. Both parties really want a temporary ceasefire so that they can resume activities when they see fit. In Hamas' case, more October 7ths. In Israel's case, the continuation of the elimination of Hamas.

We don't have any alternative to Hamas at the moment. The Palestinians themselves favor Hamas to the PLO, and the PLO also engages in funding the families of those who murder civilians. They aren't Hamas, but they're also pretty bad. Israel took a huge step towards giving Gazan's the freedom they asked for. Did they completely 100% remove all security considerations overnight? No. But how is that the issue? If a police officer handcuffed you and in the process of freeing you removed one of the handcuffs, would you then immediately use your free hand to punch them in the face? At some point you need to allow incremental progress to happen. That's not what I said, I never meant that they couldn't protest. It's just whenever we speak of establishing trust and behaving peacefully, you bring up protests as if that's a show of anything. Peace is not attacking Israeli civilians. Of course it matters what they teach in schools. Would you say Israeli society's current right leaning trend doesn't matter? Does it matter that there are swaths of Israeli society who are in fact now racist towards Palestinians? What a bizarre thing to say. If Israelis taught even 25% of the crazy racist things Hamas teaches in schools, you would have a post about it every 5 minutes. Fair enough. It's meaningless because neither side actually wants one. Also, if you look at what I wrote I explicitly said it's not only because of Oct 7. It's really the straw that broke the camel's back. There's no going back to the status quo of skirmishes with Hamas.

A few points: - Right now the Israelis are in danger of attacks on the scale of a guerrilla Hamas. Now allow Hamas to have unlimited free flowing funding and supplies from Iran while building up an official military state. That becomes an existential threat, something much greater than October 7. - You really drank the Kool-Aid that all of the issues stem from the lack of Palestinian statehood, yet Israel was attacked incessantly while the Palestinians were not under Israeli occupation. It's a highly reductionist way of looking at it. If the Palestinians had everything they wanted, it wouldn't stop them or Iran from moving towards the destruction of Israel. In fact you can see as recently as Israel left Gaza, Hamas was elected for that purpose. - Peaceful is in quotes because the protest intentionally played games with the buffer zone. I don't know who fired the first shot, nor do I care... because the response was predictable. It resulted in cycles of escalations from both sides and blood shed. - Protesting, whether violent or not is not what we mean by being peaceful. A protest is by definition an inflammatory event. To build trust in the region, you need extended periods of stability and integration. Being peaceful means no rockets, no missiles, no tunnel building, no stabbings, etc. It also means no longer teaching your youth the most vile anti Jew propaganda. From the Israeli side, it means no longer building settlements and expanding. It requires both sides to behave as friends for some time. That is what establishes trust. - Prior to October 7th Israel was increasing the amount of work permits to Palestinians - as it seemed things were stabilizing. That is a positive gesture which increases cooperation and integration of both sides. This could have been a momentum builder, but Hamas used it as a chance to attack. This is how it always goes. - Both the charters and the ceasefires are meaningless now. I'm fine not mentioning either, because actions speak louder than words and Hamas has proven via their actions that they meant what they said by their initial twelve fundamentalists and original charter. And it's not just because of Oct 7th, it is because of how they teach their youth to hate Jews and uphold the destruction of Israel as their highest value. Don't get me wrong, Israel has become more and more resigned to thwarting any chance of long term peace as well and they deserve their share of the blame. I just disagree with your one sided interpretation of what's going on there.

Obviously Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state shoved down their throats who is hostile and dangerous. There are other more selfish reasons from more fringe groups, but that is the main one. The pro Palestinian voices have their holy trinity of get out of jail cards: - They did a "peaceful" protest at the border once, and violence ensued. Therefore being peaceful doesn't work. - They updated their charter. - Nat Turner These arguments are tired and bad faith.

This isn't about "worthiness." The Palestinians can literally do whatever they want and achieve statehood, EXCEPT for initiating attacks and firing rockets at Israel. That's how low the bar is set. International law and rights will always take a back seat when survival is at stake. As I said earlier, you have it backwards for this reason. The reason you need peace as a starting point is very simple. You need to know that the moment you grant what they wish for, they won't turn around and kill you. It's not about worthiness, it's about building trust.

How are you going to conflate 2024 with the late 90s and early 2000s? Obviously, circumstances have changed.

The first one, yes. The second one I'm not sure. For one, the Lebanese are the ones who perpetuated it with Israeli intelligence and weaponry. Also, the main motivation was to root out the PLO. Anyways this one seems multi faceted. The first one is clearly a form of terrorism because the intention was deterrence via retribution on civilians from a previous attack.

There is no negotiating with Hamas. Both of them greenlit October 7th, they are dead men walking. Justice to Palestinians is the complete elimination of Israel. By that metric, there is no path forward. That is the reality of the situation. You can't really apply what happened in South Africa here. Israel has attempted to move towards two states, and was met with bad faith and attacks. They attempted to leave Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas and attacks. No good deed goes unpunished with the Palestinians. And so, with this toxic relationship you see what unfolds.

I don't dispute that, and wasn't mean to say their are "inherently" different - but the condition now is what I said. The society's highest moral virtue is the elimination of Israel.

Oh the charter, the beloved reformed charter. I guess all of their words, actions and teachings are meaningless then because they updated language in their charter.

Yes, there are several surrounding nations with similar spiral stages who are at peace with Israel. The Palestinians are different. Before October 7, Gazans had a higher quality of life index than citizens of Cairo. Their highest value and national identity is the rejection of Israel. There's nothing you can do about that.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/pa-has-only-itself-blame Many of you don't really have a clue as to who Israel's supposed peace partners are. You project your own values onto them, and in doing so escape reality.

Another good interview from an Israeli perspective which differs from Gadi Taub who I posted earlier. He is not nearly as opportunistic in terms of war mongering and land grabbing, but shares the same framework of reality around the challenges facing Israel.

This is a really great interview which explains some of the realities of the region as well as the Israeli rationale and how they reached this point. I don't agree with everything he says, but this gives a window into the thought process at the highest levels of Israeli leadership as well as the population at large. Some of you had questions about how and why Israel behaves the way it does, and I think he does a very good job of explaining it.

Israelis live well because that's their priority, living well. Palestinians have prioritized justice and the elimination of Jews over their well being, and the results show. Palestinians receive billions in aid, and have utilized almost none of it for their well being. That isn't because of Israel. The irony is that if Palestinians took the money and invested into the population at large, Israelis wouldn't be so paranoid about giving them statehood. Palestinians have it backwards - If we get a state and our demands met, there will be peace. What really would work is: If there is peace, you will have a state and get your demands met. Btw Gaza has had the same beautiful beach, and has weed and parties as well.

https://nypost.com/2024/08/05/world-news/un-admits-nine-unrwa-staffers-may-have-been-involved-in-oct-7-attack-on-israel/ “For us, any participation in the attacks is a tremendous betrayal of the sort of work that we are supposed to be doing on behalf of the Palestinian people,” Haq said. The suspected terror collaborators, all men, will be fired, the agency said — without identifying the suspects or detailing what atrocities they may have participated in. Embattled UNRWA Commissioner General Philippe Lazzarini, who previously slammed the US and other nations who halted donations to the humanitarian group after the allegations against its employees, agreed to boot the nine employees cited in the UN report. “I have decided that in the case of these remaining nine staff members, they cannot work for UNRWA,” Lazzarini said in a statement.

The issue with your deterministic view of the Palestinian response is that you apply it selectively only to them. It seems environment, upbringing and surroundings don't apply to Israelis - so it's fine to moralize their actions. You aren't allowed to judge anything Palestinians do though, they are the only ones who lack free will. I don't know if you literally wanted to apply impoverishment to this situation, but given there are many surrounding wealthy nations who promote similar extremist views and philosophies I don't think wealth is main factor here.

Someone has been binging Norman Finkelstein content and regurgitating his talking points.

Yes, I would.