Scholar

Actually reverse this. Right now there is a bit of an arrogance. Yes, it is so simple. But now, how is it possible that to the Professor, it is not so simple? Truly attempt to explore this issue. You will find that there is something there, something which you are underestimating. Something that once you see, will humble you. See, your mind has been trained to value and look at particular aspects of being, while rejecting others. This is a mistake, it will not actually reveal to you the nature of delusion. To recognize delusion, you must fully see it, not simply make it disappear.

What you should do in my opinion is get a good grasp of the feeling. The feeling that motivates you to "avoid all bias", to "go past X". I suspect it is the same feeling that made you desire Peace, and you simply replace the object of desire, thinking that this will solve it. But what you actually need to do is resolve the very desire itself. Become aware of it, confront it, accept it. Do not avoid it, do not seek to go "past it". Because that will actually feed it. Become clearly aware of this dynamic and how you have been chasing your own tail.

It's so mindblowing to me. You have like this priest who just bought himself a ferrari, and then a person who actually lives by the virtues of Christ comes along to criticize the guy for not living by the words of Jesus. And you guys go "But nobody is perfect, leave our Priest alone! Just because he buys himself a ferrari doesn't mean he isn't a good Christian!". The only people who would say this, and support the priest, are people who themselves don't care about the word of Christ at all, and who themselves would buy themselves a ferrari if they were the priest. The entire idea of stage orange individualism is that anyone can do with their money whatever they please. They can get rich by telling everyone about lofty ideals, and then do nothing to live by those ideals. Nobody is saying the guy can't have a reasonable living, but come on. You literally got rich off of this and you will use most the money for your own benefit? That's utterly shameless, especially as a socialist. I know plenty, plenty stage green people who literally have barely anything and do more than that guy does. They wouldn't even want to live like that, to them it's simply disgusting. I really do believe most of the people on this forum have a huge lack of understanding of what embodiment stage green actually means, which is why you have such a difficult time spotting these obvious frauds. The only way you can analyse these issues is by surface level ideologies people hold, which tells me precisely to which depth you have explored a particular stage. Okay my dude.

You have created an attachment to Peace. As soon as you have an attachment, you will fear losing it, and that will disturb your peace. So, counter-intuitively, to seek peace you must not seek peace, you must confront and accept suffering. See, your seeking of the avoidance of bias will create suffering too, because bias is part of your Being. You cannot escape it, all you could possibly do is delude yourself into thinking you are unbiased, which will make your bias just more dangerous. You have to stop with the running away, moving past this, past that. Reality doesn't exist for you to run away from it. You created it because you are in Love with it, and that includes your current struggle.

Nonsense, Hasan is employing people himself, he wants to literally change the entire framework of our economy, and yet he himself will not create a cooperative? How gullible can you be to think that he is doing everything he can do through his political commentary. The guy is literally rich, he could so much more. By actually doing so little he is doing active harm to the progessives, as he aspouses individualsitic virtues that seek to avoid collective responsibility. I don't care what he does with his money, I don't expect anything from the guy. But nobody is going to convince me that the dude is anywhere near Stage Green. He is Orange with some Green, not the other way around.

It is not about what we expect Green Individuals to do, it is about what the Green Individuals expect themselves what to do. That is core to their values, and that is how you know where they are at on the spiral. Nobody is asking someone who is basically a wage slave to capitalism to let go of all his possessions to become some sort of ideal of socialism. None of the actual stage green people who criticize people like Vaush and Hasan make these arguments, it's a ridiculous strawman. If however someone is literally becoming the one percent of the one percent, by spouting socialist ideals, and literally criticizing celebreties for the very same things that one would engage in as soon as one had aquired the same amount of wealth and status, and feeling no responsibility to actually meaningfully change themselves or the system that one literally views to be as completely unjustified and evil, then one is no different from a Televangelist. The guy is filthy rich and he literally is doing viritually nothing to live by his socialist ideals. The world is not going to change by people talking about ideals, the world is going to change by people actually changing their behaviours and values. People like Hasan are the very few people who are privileged enough to actually live out their ideals. But if even they cannot do it, how are they going to expect the entirety of society to change, when any other person would actually have to sacrifice and adopt responsibility to meaningfully change anything in our world. What the guy says and what he does are in complete opposition, and ironically that is what he teaches all the socialists that listen to him. "Continue to engage in capitalism as if nothing changde, but let's talk about how we all think everyone but us is evil for not agreeing with our positions, that we ourselves will not bother actualizing to even the mildest degree in practice!". This is literally Televangelism for socialists.

When Curt Jaimungal proposed this possibility to him, I think Leo missed an oppurtunity to get to the core and essence of the issue. The way he attempted to resolve this was by actually engaging in the delusional framework that was being proposed. Instead of trying to convince Curt Jaimungal within that framework, I think it would have been far easier to make him understand the misframing of the entirety of his metaphysical understanding. What Curt does not realize, and what Leo points out far too little because of how much of an intellectual he is, is the fact that the very essence and being of "Outsidedness" itself is part of the illusion, part of what Leo would call imagination. Outsidedness and Withinness here is not realized to be merely one dimension of existence, but rather it is treated as if it was Essential to the Ground of Being. Curt is missing that what he uses to engage with Truth itself is itself completely delusiory, that he confuses something that is manifested from the Groundless Ground as the Ground itself. Basically Curt proposes some sort of underlying Metalogic, which somehow escapes Being, with is more fundamental than Being, which is what gives rise to Being. Leo simply had to point out and clearly identify this mistake in perception. That the metalogic that Curt is too unaware to even realize he is assuming, is itself something that is manifest through the Groundless Ground. That Outsideness and Withinness are nothing but one aspect of Being, like the colors black and white. The fundamental problem here is that Consciousness is assumed to be some sort of Subject thing, something that lies in contrast to something else. An Object of Being, rather than the fundamental Ground(lessness) of Being. That Outsidedness and Withinness are somehow more fundamental than Consciousness. Curt does not realize the outragous nature of this because he is referring to something completely different when he talks about Consciousness. His notions of it are embedded in a framework which his mind is unable to see past, as it is from that vantage point that he himself perceives existence. He in that sense is the ventage point, he is the framework. Which is why it is impossible to teach him. For realization to take place, Curt himself must fundamentally change, because his Nature is what determines the Reality of his Existence.

You have created an idea of Spirituality which is not Spirituality. What is it to you that is unspiritual? You say there is that which is lower of consciousness. How could this possibly be the case? The very idea that you created for yourself that discriminates between some sort of "Higher form of Being" vs "Lower form of Being", how is that itself not the very form of duality and low of Beingness that you seek to avoid so much? See, your mind is defined by fear, avoidance, hierarchy, survival, judgement, superiority, inferiority, imperfection. What you call "Low consciousness", is actually nothing but a projection of your own mind. If you would choose not to imagine low consciousness, it would not exist. You are creating that which you seek to escape of, by the very process of attempting to escape it. Think about this. What would you be escaping if that which you are escaping wouldn't even exist? Again, you have a feeling of lack of free will, you have a feeling of everything being caused by everything else. Can you see how this feeling, this object of Being, has grabbed you and determined the very nature of your Experience? This object, feeling, cannot be essential to your nature, because it was not present for eternity, it was not present since the moment you were born. You went from one delusion, one object of Isness, to be absorbed by another. You have not escaped the Whirlwind and Dance of Duality, you are being violently tossed back and forth by it. By pointing to reality and having created a hierarchy of Low and High Consciousness, you have tainted your perception. You have begun to operate from that framework as if it was essential to reality, as if it was what Grounded Existence. But Existence has no Ground, which is you you had the choice to create any Ground you desired. And what you desired, as a result of being convinced by Leo Gura's ideology, is to create a particular narrow framework from which you looked at the world. A framework that is only Truthful as long as you shall imagine it to be. That is the cause of your suffering. It is your arrogance, your judgement, your idea of a superior kind of Isness. That is which rendered you incapable of Surrendering to the Perfection of All that Is. Because to Surrender truly, means to let go of the idea of Spirituality, of Higher and Lower Consciousness, of that which is Passive and Active. These dualities you have created are no different from the dualities of those who you criticize to be of a Lower Kind.

There is a deep assumption that reality can be grasped with the human mind. It is like assuming that an ant could comprehend calculus or shakespear. For the ant to understand shakespear or calculus, the nature of the ant would have to change. Because it actually that which is the ant which determines that which is the understanding of the ant. The ant is it's own form of existence. The ant could only ever hope to be the ant, and the dissolution of the ant would become the revelation of that which is the dissolution of the ant. The assumption that truth can be discovered is it's own contracted form of Isness. Everything already is Truth, and different kinds of Truth can only be realized by actualizing these Truths into existence. So, the one who claims he is discovering Truth, is not realizing that the process of Discovery is actually the alteration of the Moment of Being that he is. That he never discovered anything of greater depth or Reality, but rather simply changed from one form to another. That the seeming depth is actually merely part of the very nature of his current Being, or the contrast between the one and the other. In the end, everything is pure Creative Miracle, and the entire Force of Being stands behind the ignorance of the monkey as much as the Absoluteness of the Godhead.

The question was about what stage he is at, not about whether he should or shouldn't continue with his nonsense. You completely missed the marked.

No, that's not true, that's not how any of this works Leo. How can you be saying this when you studied the model so much. Stage orange people can have a wide range of ideals. I mean, look at stage red people, they had communist ideals, does that mean they were stage green? No, they obviously were not. Hasan is actually spreading his own bastardized version of stage Green values, as he keeps avoiding personal responsibility. That is one of the biggest hallmarks of stage green. The difference between someone like Vaush/Hasan and someone who is actually grounded in stage green is that when you tell them they are responsible for the collective state and have a moral obligation to do something about it, the person grounded in stage green will feel in their core that responsibility. They will be grounded in that. Someone at stage orange will look at factory farms and go like "Yes that's bad but it's not my problem, we have to change society! Leave my individual choices alone!". Someone at stage green will look at factory farms and feel personally responsible for it. "Oh shit that's bad, what am I doing? I am creating these farms, I need to stop!". Same goes for something like creating a cooperative. Hasan has easily the wealth and the social power to create wonderful things in the world that would contribute positively and practically to showcasing the ideals of socialism. But he has no interest in that, because he feels no collective obligation whatsoever. He is at the core an individualist, which is why he behaves the way he does and why when confronted about this by people who are actually at stage green, he will throw his hands in the air and say "You can't expect a socialist to enslave himself to the system! We all live under capitalism therefore anything goes!". The guy is filthy rich, he is one of the very few people who is NOT enslaved by capitalism, he is in the position to actually benefit his community greatly in actually practical ways. But he is not interested in doing that whatsoever, what is on his mind are pornstars. That's what tells me his actual values. Just because someone dogmatically believes in the virtues of Jesus Christ doesn't mean they are at stage coral or whatever. Usually it means they are at stage blue.

You are missing the point. It is not about owning a house, it is about where your values are grounded in. Hasan isn't doing anything to live out stage green values other than presenting them in the most stage orange way possible. He is literally just talking about them and making tons of money that he then uses exclusively for his personal benefit. Someone who is actually centered in stage green wouldn't be interested in owning a 3$M house in LA while fucking pornstars, and wearing expensive brand-name clothes. That is utterly cringe to people who are actually grounded in stage green. Your own lack of authentic stage green seems to make you blind to how people at that stage actually work, and what the difference is between someone who adopts a few ideals and someone whose values are actually grounded in that specific stage. You have a really simplistic idea of what it means to actually be at a certain stage of development. It isn't just about Hasan donating some money so he can feel better about himself, it is about what he values. If he were actually at stage green he would value compassionate, communal living. He would be interested in wanting to be living out his ideals in practice, not just talk about them. He would look at himself and cringe at how inauthentic he is. But he doesn't, all he actually cares about is fucking pornstars, being popular and rich.

He is not stage blue in that regard but rather stage orange. He is a moral subjectivist, he doesn't say he is right, he admits that it's just his personal preference. He doesn't need to be right because morality simply is an expression of his desires.

It's so beyond pathetic that he literally alters his entire moral system just so he can justify to consume meat. He will literally accept killing/torturing tribal and mentally handicapped people if they can't reciprocate value. And one most question, if one is a subjectivist, meaning that all morality is only a description of ones desire, then it actually cannot be the case that these people are being truthful, because clearly they have constructed a conceptual framework that will allow them to engage in an even more underlying value system which is not the values they have actually proposed. This is just typical stage orange cringiness.

One really important thing to realize is that these people are not at all grounded in stage green, they are as orange as you can be. They merely adopt stage green values as an aesthetic. You can see this very well with people like Hasan who live the most stage orange life you can possibly imagine, while in a pure stage orange manner convey their supposed stage green ideals. This is why these guys are so attractive to people, because fundamentally they are stage orange, not green.

His position is that morality is subjective, therefore his only goal in life is to convert everyone with rhetoric of his value system. For individuals who cannot be convinced by rhethoric, he views it justified to do so by force, stating that he has no problem with eventually killing everyone who would be unable to agree with him or be willing to be subjugated by his personal value system, as soon as he would be in power. I think it's a position many people would somewhat agree with but Vaush made it extra spicy with the way he framed it. But he also thinks it's totally a-okay to pay for people to rape and torture infants so you can watch videos of it to jerk off to, because all consumption under capitalism is unethical and therefore individuals cannot ever be taken to be responsible for their consumption. Which is the most mindblowingly stupid position you can come up with because you simultanously say all consumption under capitalism is unethical but at the same time it's perfectly okay to engage in all consumption under capitalism. The lengths people will go to to avoid being vegan is utterly fascinating to me.

Let's pretend an industry which is responsible for deindividualizing beings to the degree where they can kill billions of them every year will ever treat them with respect, because that totally makes sense.

Trump is one of the main reasons why China has such a hatred for the US at this moment.

How does that even make sense? China is criticizing the west of a lack of value in masculinity, the entire idea is that they scoff at masculinity, so why would they poop their pants? What's happening is that the chinese government is currently pooping it's pants.

I think you are limiting yourself by holding onto an egoistic-altruism framework and choosing this one contracted lense to analyse human behaviour and the world. While this framework can be useful, it is also only one side of the coin. But more importantly it is merely a model, a model that if you engage with it by looking at it as if it were true, will shape your being and how your interact with the world. See, if you engage in compassion with an attitude that it will serve yourself, you will never have true compassion, you will never have a true concern for the other. Your concern will, in practice, be fuel by your own selfishness. And while you will be simulating compassion and using the parts of your mind that generate genuine compassion, you will always remain and act from a particular sector of the mind. See, fake compassion, or self-motivated compassion, is fundamentally not the same as true compassion, true Love. It will seem the same on the surface, but it will actually play out differently in practice. Because what if you do not benefit from not torturing babies? What if you benefit greatly from it? What would you do then? Would you be able to sacrifice yourself on the cross and have the capacity to forgive those who are torturing and killing you, if all of your compassion was fundamentally of a self-serving nature, and that the way you have understood self-sacrifice was through a lense of selfishness? What you propose might be a first stepping stone for an undeveloped mind, but it will not be enough for you to truly change, or for society to truly evolve. What it takes is grounding your values in not your own self-desires and benefit, but actually beginning to recognize the nature of your true self. That your desires are serving not your contracted self, but rather that they are an extention of the greater collective. That fundamentally, you are not doing everything to serve yourself, that this is only what it seemed like. That infact, you are the one who is subservient to desire. That desire is not yours, but rather that it is impartial, serving a greater need outside of yourself. That you never were motivated to self-serve, but that you have always been motivated to serve the desires to which you are a slave. That from the beginning it was the other way around. That you did not use the world to serve you, that the world used you to serve itself, and that this is the genuine role of your being within this existence.

As long as there is the Actual, the Real, the Substantive, it shall be the case that the Groundless Ground will be inperceptive, veiled and hidden. The process of perception itself is a particular form of existence, which taints the rest of Being. The Duality between Actuality and Illusion is itself Unreal, or one particular Form or Object of Existence. But even deeper than this, the Unrealness of it is itself an Actuality which is Unreal. To make sense of this is impossible, as it is not the case that there is a Ground at all. To Ground anything means to create the Unreal. To actualize anything means to be Illusion, and to be Illusion means to be the Actual. However, far above this seeming depth (which is no depth at all), there is a Sense of Actuality, one that, as long as not dissolved, will be confused for the Absolute Reality. In fact, Absoluteness and Realness itself are part of that Sense of Actuality. Without that Sense, the Groundless Ground is revealed, and the Absolute Realness ceases to be. What is left is pure and immediate Impossibility, or what one would call Miracle. That which is beyond the Duality of Non-Duality and Duality. That which cannot be even described as Being. That which fundamentally cannot be Understood, and not even perceived. The Illusion of the Actual cannot be escaped, because the process of Escape itself is one such form of Actual Illusion. All will take place within this Circle which is grounded in Groundlessness.

You are externalizing this issue. You have asked in particular how you should solve this issue for yourself, as someone who is presumably conscious enough to understand that the culturally accepted norm that is being practiced is unjustified. Notice how you suddenly made it about convincing the masses. The question was how to convince yourself! Notice how the little devil in your mind is at work here to completely change the function of the conversation so as to avoid self-reflection. How to convince the masses is a very different topic that is seperate from the question you have initially posed. So to recontextualize: If you were a pedophile in a society where sexual torture and rape of children was the accepted norm, and that your consciousness and ethical sensitivity was above the level of the people in said society, how would you get yourself to motivate yourself to stop engaging in that kind of activity?

You should truly contemplate how a pedophile must feel, because you are in a similar situation. What would you recommend to someone who can only get sexual gratification from children? How would you want them to go about not engaging in something they know would lead to the abuse of other individuals?

Why did Joe not get vaccinated?

With not wanting to debate me you actually mean you want to grandstand with your supposed spiritual development rather than actually engage and test these ideas you have proposed, most of which fall apart even on a surface level.