Scholar

What do you think is my view? Give a summary.

I think you really need to step back and realize how you are literally rationalizing to a degree that it is becoming childish. Christianity as an ideology is and was tremendously harmful. Of course it was necessary, but we have grown wise enough to let go of it and not repeat the same mistakes. We should criticise Buddhism aswell, and all tradtions. It doesn't matter what tradition it is, if it does something that causes harm, we should poiint that out and seek change. This is basic "whataboutism", google the term. I understand your need to defend Leo and your own identity. Nobody here is "blaming Leo", or demanding him to be perfect. We are simply pointing to areas he can improve in. What you are doing is exceptionally dangerous especially in a spiritual community. I can disagree with Leo, I can criticise what he does. This is what a community does, we take each other into account and we share our perspectives. Your attempt to invalidate anyone who is "speaking against" Leo is unhealthy. I am not pointing fingers or blaming, I have repeatedly said this. I am challenging Leo because I think it is the right thing to do. You guys are behaving like children and this is a serious issue. Stop defending a full grown man from something that is not even done in any bad faith. Most people here are reasonable, concerned and compassionate. We aren't out to get or blame Leo.

By the way, there is a very real possibility that if Leo and similar people do not adjust their way of advocacy, that in the future these ideas might get banned from youtube and similar social media platforms. It's still pretty contained to a small part of spiritual community, but trust me if this went to the public, how many of us here talk with Leo will seem like childsplay. We are trying to help Leo, this community and the future of the spiritual movement. But of course, wisdom often has to be taught through suffering.

When you say "something is simply foolish", you are implying objectivity without being aware of it. You can call it foolish, but in the grand scheme of things, according to Leo's philosophy, it all must be Perfection and Wisdom. There could not possibly be anything foolish in reality.

He can say what he wants, but it's nonsense and he knows this. If there is no such thing as objective morality, there certainly is no such thing as objective foolishness. It's just better PR to say otherwise.

There is no way for you to actually justify this line of reasoning and you know it. A direct consequence of your philosophy is that you cannot say any of this was bad, foolish or ignorant. Who constitutes what a misusage of teachings are? I guess if it's bad PR for you, it must be misusage. Warnings from what exactly? A breaching of your personal moral code that you have established for your own selfish reasons? You can't reason yourself out of this.

These religions actually tell you that if you commit suicide you go to hell. But those that do say committing Jihad grants you heaven actually do lead to people interpreting that as an invitation to blowing themselves up together with others.

It's right here my dude. Now let's stop talking about this it isn't leading any of us anywhere. Thinking about this is a waste of time and energy.

But this idea of blame is completely silly. This isn't about blame, this is about responsibility and compassion. Leo can adjust his behave. Him spouting that he is God and reality is a dream, and morality unreal, in the way he does that, it's completely unnecessary. Leo loves being right, that's fundamentally why he likes talking about all of this. He loves being intellectual, he loves telling you how it is. That's the primary reason why he does communicate this stuff in the way he does. It has nothing to do with some sort of grand strategy of wanting to be the most effective teacher. If he wanted to be effective, he would have long ago found a way to test his teachings with solid feedback. The best way to do this is if you do it in person. He can very much control to a degree how his ideas will be received, it would be absurd to claim otherwise.

I think you have to go back and carefully re-read what I wrote. Some information should not be given out like Leo is doing it and also in the way he is doing it. He is doing deeper deconstruction that Spiritual Teachers will do in person, where they can constantly monitor and adjust the trajectory of the person. If you want to go deep, you cannot do it in a robot way. You can't do it like Leo is trying to do it, at his home talking to a camera and just telling everyone exactly how it is. That's like so bizarrely silly it's mindblowing to me that it's not obvious. This literally doesn't change anything. But again, just keep on shifting responsibility as far away from Leo and yourself as you can. That's the attitude the spiritual community needs right now.

Because to you all of this is nothing but intellectual masturbation. If you actually were to take this path seriously, you would notice that it would start being the case that putting your hands in the hornest nest wouldn't be problematic to you at all. Connor Murphy got hair replacement without anesthesia to prove the point that to him every experience was "Good". You are doing intellectual gymnastics here.

It's Leo's lack of wisdom and social isolation. If he wants to teach he should get in person experience and get the feedback he clearly needs to see. Leo has been completely dogmatic about the way he teaches since years now, all under the umbrella of it being his style and him wanting to not compromise the "Truth". I never said Leo should stop teaching spirituality, your response here is childlike. I am saying he should adjust his teachings and be a responsible human being.

This is unbelievably irresponsible and gaslighting. You guys should have compassions for your brothers and sisters, not blame them because they lost their plot. But of course you don't believe in morality, so who cares if you are being considerate to others. Oh yes, the backtracking. One day you say this is the Absolute Truth, and then when someone discovers the Absolute Truth for themself and kills themselves, it's all just a theory and you should have never been certain. How can people who claim to do consciousness work be so clueless to what they are doing? You are showing zero compassion, zero responsiblity.

Yes, but don't tell this anyone. But also, tell this everyone because I like to be edgy and confront everyone with the Truth.

See, Leo can deal with his ideology because he is an exceptionally cautious person. Someone like Connor will react completely different to the same ideas and experiences. He won't be as cautious. A solid teaching would take this into account. You can't just assume that everyone will deal with all of this like you do because you think you are being reasonable. That's not how any of this works. This is why talking to a camera is so dangerous. You don't get the feedback, you don't see how people react to what you say. You don't see the consequences. You are doing an experiment and are completely blind to what is even going on. You assume that you are being wise, but you are unwilling to even test yourself. That is the opposite of wisdom.

You don't have to lie about anything. The point is that you can't market this to the masses and be edgily truthful because you think bruteforcing ideology into the brains of clueless people will help them. It's not at all insane to leap to your death if you are truly convinced of what Leo is saying. It makes 100% sense to be certain when Leo claims you can only trust your experience. I mean what do you think this leads to if you tell this to a person? Yes, people don't necessarily belief in objective morals. But they do believe in their own mortality, and that other beings exist, and that reality contains suffering, and most importantly they lack conviction that all of reality is Perfection. But sure, just ignore this. If you cannot be wise, reality will make you wise through suffering.

Right, but you also say that other sentient beings don't exist and are only a figment of your imagination. So what is it? Are there sentient beings that are unconscious and get fucked up by his actions or are there not? I thought it was all a dream that you are imagining? See how you will squirm and wiggle so that you can uphold your moral beliefs? You claim that morality is delusional, and then you go about preaching like a catholic priest how things are fucked up. But how can things be fucked up if everything is Goodness? Maybe it's you who has to see the Goodness here, and you are just projecting. None of this makes sense, this is why these things happen. Yes, and this is precisely why this will all be forgotten.

This won't work. You can't just tell someone "Suicide and self harm is wrong! But also, morality is illusiory, everything including rape and torture is Love and Perfection. And by the way you can't die because you are God!". You give this knowledge to a child, he will cut himself with it. This is inevitable. This is serious stuff here, you can't just market it to the masses and expect everything to go well. The disclaimers are nothing but PR games. There is a reason why spiritual traditions that were successful did not spout "radical truth" to everyone on the street, telling them "You are God, I am God, it's all a dream!". If Buddhism did this it wouldn't exist today. Secondly, these traditions all firmly establish and importance in morality. There is a reason for this, it's not just "stage blue absolutism". None of the stuff Leo is teaching has been tested for more than a decade, nor do we even truly know the results. We have a confirmation bias of people just praising him. You have no idea how many people already killed themselves because of this. But better pretend like it's not your responsibility. I'm sure with an attitude like that, these teachings will stand the test of time.

It should not be surprising, the philosophy Leo is using to describe spirituality is even more radical than this. Connor is a good example of this too. If you say everything is Good and Love, it is simply illogical to claim that it is better to do X. This philosophy claims to recognize that torture and rape is Perfection. Not just suicide. This is another reason why you ought to be careful about how you construct this philosophy. See, if people truly believe what you say, the might blow themselves up together with others for Jihad. And then what do you do as a teacher? You say "No no, this is bad PR, this is wrong! When I said everything is Good and Perfect, I actually meant you should behave morally because it's stupid to behave immorally!". Are you sure? See, because you are contradicting yourself, if someone truly believes what you say with actual conviction, he will laugh at you, as Connor does at Leo when he tries to tell him what he is doing is "bad". Clearly in one moment you say it's bad and in the other you say it's Perfection. You tell him whatever fits your agenda. And he will clearly see this if he truly and fully is convinced that reality is perfection, or that it is a dream, or anything else. See, if reality is a dream, every excuse for why you should not torture someone goes out the window. You can pretend like this is not the case, but it is.

Ah, this also happens when you call the animal holocaust a holocaust and people go crazy over it saying it's downplaying what happened in WW2, and then you pull the utlimate jewish holocaust survivor card who calls what happens to animals an eternal treblinka. Ironically it is those who condemn comparing these things to each other who are the ones using these atrocities to justify their own actions.

No, you are overthinking this. Too much analysis. Monkey mind won't help you.

See this is where I think you are missing a piece of the puzzle. But it really doesn't matter.

See, this is the dogma I am trying to point out. You have already completely given up on the highest enlightened state for Truth itself. This unawareness, this is the Truth that you sacrifice "Infinite Love" for. That is the most selfless act. It's not going back to being selfless, that's selfish! To be truly selfless is to make ego, suffering and separation reality by letting go of the "highest Truth". See, we can frame this any way we want. My framing isn't more truthful than yours. But notice how to take this "path" seriously you really need to pretend that your view is more truthful. You might intellectually agree with me, but deep down you actually do give more importance to your own viewpoint. Otherwise it wouldn't be your viewpoint. And that's okay. Leo's entire philosophy contains like subtle morality. When he calls people devils for example, he implies some sort of objective "goal". But I could equally frame him for being a devil because he is escaping the most Selfless state because he is suffering. Now it would be silly to do this, but equally it is silly to call a mother a devil because her love is limited to her child. That blindness is precisely what is so selfless ironically!

No I am just using this language because people here use it, it's all nonsense, literally. None of it is "true" at all. People on this forum don't have the problem that they don't know all the intellectual in and outs of models of enlightenment that you, Leo and others provide. None of this helps them, they know all of this shit. You are just circle jerking around pretending you are teaching others. Most people here have the problem that they just think and interpret too much and spend way too much in the thinking mode of their mind, including even during meditation and tripping. They take all of this way too seriously, including the need to get to the path. It doesn't matter, it shouldn't be so stuck up and full of self importance. People actually think getting enlightened is more important than any other aspect of life. This only makes sense if you are suffering or have attachments, like wanting to know "truth". Nobody needs to get enlightened, there is no point. If you want to, sure, but you will end up being unenlightened anyways. Where do you think you come from in the first place? There is no need for recognizing and becoming aware of any of this. You already have been and at that point you decided to become this very "unawareness" that you are. If I was talking to different people, I would make up a whole different story, but this is the story that is appropriate here in my eyes.