Scholar

I disagree. I think he had an immature reaction to it and later caught himself so pulled the statements back a little. This is one of the aspects that is dysfunctional about MrGirl, he loves being contrarian. You can feel it in his personality, sometimes he says shit just so he can make a confrontational statement.

If society was truly egalitarian those burgers wouldn't even be legal to sell or buy.

I honestly don't think the guy knows what socialism even is.

@Carl-Richard @Danioover9000 Somewhere in this conversation, I think it was in the last third.

Mr Girl thinks meditation is basically cult stuff and he doesn't believe in it, he had a very typical stage orange reaction to it when I heard him talk about it. He is actually pretty similar to Jordan Peterson where he projects his own trauma everywhere, he is a very dysfunctional person.

I think there is a bit of a lack of consciousness regarding this topic on this forum in general. It is the cause for most of the suffering and destruction in society, therefore I think we should try to extend our circle of responsibility by dedicating some of our attention to these issues. Conscious Politics must include animals and the environment. The pillar of unity is compassion. Compassion is our way to understand others, and to the degree to which we are ignorance of the suffering and the concerns of others, to that degree we are biased, we are blind. If we want to live in a good world, we must first be able to see the world for what it is, and that means to see and feel the world from the perspective of all individuals. If this is not achieved, your blindness will cause your own suffering, aswell as the suffering of others. The issue with prioritizing humans to such a degree is that it is not a conscious decision, but rather one stemming from bias and ignorance. We do not know why we are prioritizing humans, we simply do. This is a function of lack of awareness, not a function of a holistic view of the world and a conscious decision to do so for the sake of harmony and unity. To achieve Unity, we must see everyone, we must include everyone. I would like for everyone to consider this before they post here, to consider how partial their compassion is, how it is skewed, and how one will seek to justify that bias, and to rationalize it. And I want you to consider what this blindness already has done to this world and to humanity. I think what makes humanity special is that we can consciously extend our love to others and other things. That not intelligence is what makes us truly special, but rather that we can fall in love with anything. We can fall in love with ideas and concepts, with people and things, with activities and perceptions. And how we guide that Love will determine how our world will look like, and how much we will prosper.

Oh, ye I can see that I might have misinterpreted it lol. Yes, cognitive dissonance will assure that changes won't take place, which is why reasoning often is ineffective when attempting to change people. You cannot just make people rational when they are motivated reasoners, so changing them through rationality can be futile. I think they are connected, I think only once enough individuals change can policy change. If we live in a society full of nazi's, of course we won't stop the holocaust, because nobody thinks there is something wrong with it. Once people see animals as individuals and resolve their emotional attachments, the reasoning to animal rights flows naturally because it is the obvious thing to do. I don't imagine that black abolitionists made enough of a difference to change the outcome, I think we would have still changed even if black abolitionists did not exist. Yes, I interpreted your points in a certain way based on our past encounters, I am not in defense mode emotionally speaking.

What I mean by hurdle is in the context of abiding by animal rights. Each individual can do so, it doesn't require institutions. You can go vegan whether or not there is a trillion dollar financial market, and in the end all this is about you not wanting to go vegan. You basically said "Well it's all futile and it won't change any time soon so why even try haha? But guess you can try you stupid idiot you won't change anything, you are a naive idealist", in a nice way. My point is that I think society would have changed independent of whether there were black abolitionists. The fact that black abolitionists were allowed to exist already required a stance that viewed black people as individuals. Why would they be vegan? I am saying that environmentalism doesn't have you arrive at animal rights, infact it might be the opposite in many cases like factory farming for example. We should not give animals the rights not to be tortured because it would be bad for the environment if we did free-range farming. In this case animal rights are not restricted to veganism. Aside from stating the obvious that veganism, like any other social justice movement, will meet resistance, what exactly was your motivation to post this?

That's not a hurdle though. Every individual can be vegan. We also won't ever get rid of all rape and murder, doesn't mean that makes it in any way harder to not rape and murder people. See, your mind will use the excuse that everything will never be perfect, therefore it's futile to try. That is an appeal to futility. Firstly, you don't know whether it is futile or not. The more people do feel they are obligated to follow ethical rules, the more likely it becomes that institutions will change. I don't think people voted slavery away because slaves rose up and defended themselves. I think people voted slavery away because they realized it was wrong. Environmental arguments are a red-herring because they don't really speak to animal rights at all. You could argue factory farms are better for the environment than free range farms that require huge amounts of land for grazing for example. Using the fact that people are seeking an ideal to dismiss it I think is not a very wise thing to do, because every social justice movement starts with an ideal. And humanity has to be more sensitive in their compassion than only giving those rights who have the power to defend themselves. But it all starts with people changing their view towards animals, and view them as individuals, recognizing that they are the same as us in terms of being experiencers, the only difference being the structure of their mind and body.

This is a very good example of how biased people are when it comes to these topics. I hear Leo make similar arguments. In the conversation, the person attempted to relativize their choice of being a meat-eater by saying that veganism causes harm to humans because for plant agriculture migrant workers are exploited. It is then explained to her that not only do migrant workers get exploited in the same way in the animal agriculture (as it requires more crops to produce to feed the animals) but that it also causes significant harm to people who work in slaughterhouses. The person then proceeds to completely ignore this point, and ignore the reason why they even brought it up, and then proceed to ask why the vegans are not focusing on the human suffering first and have that as a priority. Suddenly, they claimed that we needed to help humans so that they can help us (which she included herself in) to help animals. And remember, this was an argument for why she is not vegan, and why she isn't helping animals. This is how the mind works, it will do anything to avoid responsibility including contradicting itself and making itself look like a complete fool. I this is such obvious nonsense that any mindful person would laugh at themselves if they heard themselves think this way. This is what she said: "I am not vegan because actually veganism causes exploitation to humans, but actually it does cause less exploitation to humans, so I am not vegan so that I can tell you to focus on humans so that they can help us turn everyone vegan!" That's absurd, and that's precisely how cognitive dissonance works. It twists and distorts and perverts everything. It has only one goal, to uphold the contradiction, and it will use your own reasoning, your intellect, to achieve that goal at all costs. Your own mind is trying to convince you of the bullshit it is telling you so you can remain being ignorant of your bias and selfishness. In this instance we can observe cognitive dissonance as a result of wanting to uphold a positive self-image. When you seek to feel like you are a good person, and cherish that image, no matter what you do, your mind will protect that image. This is why when you poke them in the area they actually know they are wrong, they get so upset. It reveals to them their own evil, which makes them suffer.

This conversation reminded me of some fundamental disconnect I have with people when talking about certain issues. The materialist basically will say "Well, we have evidence that atoms exist, because these models allow us to preduct things", and the idealist of course will respond with this, which should completely kill any argument the materialist can provide: Whatever notion of materialism you have, whatever notion of an atom you have, whatever notion of objectivity and outsidedness (outside of consciousness) you have, it is all consciousness. If you say that any aspect of your consciousness is true, which you have to necessarily do to claim materialism is true, then you admit the material is consciousness/ideal. I came to this conclusion a long time ago by independent contemplation, and I can't quite understand what makes it so that some people just cannot grasp this. To me saying they lack the awareness to see this is unsatisfying. It's so simple, it's so obvious, yet it is being denied. It seems like they are so lost in a certain aspect of consciousness, that they do not even know what consciousness is. When they refer to the material, they do refer to consciousness, of course because they could not refer or point to anything but consciousness, yet the entire play is to pretend that it isn't consciousness. It's to say that consciousness is not consciousness. You cannot even escape this, it's obvious that you cannot escape it, it's self-evident. Yet, it is not seen. It's like the materialist is already an idealist, he just doesn't know it. He cannot be anything but an idealist, and anything he could possibly believe will be idealistic. Really, what is happens is that he contracted the ideal to a subset, to a concept, which he can then deny. But what is actually ideal is all of that which he could even claim to be true, or deny to be true. How can this be resolved? Is it just an issue with people being too immersed in the conceptual, and being unable to see the conceptual for what it is? A lot of this kind of dogmatism and basically delusion seems to come from people being too close to whatever concept they believe. It's like they live from that concept, they are like a fish in the water, not aware of the existence of the water. It is frustrating because it's something you just can't explain to people, because the explanation is so simple, yet they do not grasp it. They are completely deaf to it.

You are approaching this from the wrong angle. You are in the layer of the conceptual, and you are attempting to create a conceptual framework that you then will conceptualize to be the "real". That's basically what you are unaware of. Forget about direct and non-direct consciousness, focus exactly on what it means when you say "outside" (of consciousness) or "reality". The fundamental issue is you are not even aware what it means and what you are doing when you say something is "outside". That entire feeling you have of something existing outside of your consciousness, what do you think that is? It's a feeling. If you say that feeling is real, then reality is feeling, then reality is ideal. You cannot escape this. Fundamentally, anything you will ever conceptualize will be ideal, it will be made of consciousness, and if you really feel like that different aspect of consciousness is reality, then that's just another "thing" in consciousness. What you are basically doing when you say the world is material is like saying "The world is red!". You would call redness a perception, but you fail to realize that your entire sense of reality is a perception, including any physicalist and materialist notions. All of them are just made of mind, and the irony is, you call out and say "But that's reality, that is not mind, that is reality outside of mind!". Your concept is self-defeating because you say something is outside of your mind, yet you claim to know about it and say that it is reality. Whatever you will ever conceptualize, including the concept of something that you cannot perceive or that is outside of you, will be within you, and thus it will be ideal. All of that is still mind, you cannot escape this. You have to see that, rather than trying to create more conceptual frameworks. You have to realize that what you are claiming to be the case is literally absurd, it's a self-deception. You are pretending that your own ideas are not consciousnesss, that your own feelings about reality (which is what the problem here is) are not feelings, that they somehow transcend your mind. And even the notion of transcendence of mind is something within mind. This is the first step, once your truly realize that, you will see that your notion of reality, in the way your frame it as an mind opposed to a world, is something that is happening right here, in this existence that you are. That this is existence, and that your ideas do not give rise to existence, but rather that they are within existence. Then you will recognize the Unity of Existence. Not because you think that to be the case, but because it will be obvious to you that it is the case, and that everything you previously did was a game you were playing with yourself, and that you continue to play them game even now, as you talk about existence and Unity and so forth.

Maybe we should burn you rather than the books.

You make the mistake of projection. You yourself have done spirituality via irrational dogmatism, you have adopted beliefs in terms of outwards attention, as you say even today "That convinces me, that doesn't convince me!". You are a believer who is seeking the right belief. And now you discovered rationalism and materialism, which "convinces you more". But you are not actually being rational, you are just going from one system of faith to the next. For you I would actually recommend philosophy. Instead of looking at the world and testing certain belief systems, look at your own and try to justify them. Read some Hegel. The issue right now is not only that you cannot justify matierialism, you do not even know what it means to rationally justify something. You do not merely not see the limits of rationality, you are not even engaging in rationality. You cannot fathom that someone starts at rationality, and spents years and years studying philosophy and science and to then come to conclude that the world is not materialistic. Because that's not how it was for you. You were a silly dogmatist who realized how dogmatic he way, and now you are projecting your non-sense onto everyone as if you had discovered reason for the first time. You are lagging behind on hundreds of years of philosophy and science, which is the great irony here. All you know is dogmatically adopting belief systems via "I am convinced by this. I am not convinced by this.". You cannot justify materialism because it's just another belief you have. Now, go and actually learn what reasoning is, study philosophy and science for 10 years, in a non-dogmatic way, read hundreds of books, and come back here and talk to us about your materialistic nihilism.

No it's not on the fans, misinformation is misinformation, Rogan knows very well that his opinion is respected, he even invites scientists to talk to with many of them being selected to confirm his biases. It's dishonest and silly to think that people don't watch Joe Rogan to get information. A responsible human being will react to reality how it is, not command that their intention is different and therefore reality can kiss their ass. Either way, Joe Rogan is a misinformation machine, and he is doing more damage than CNN ever did. That's a fact, whether or not people should or shouldn't listen to him, or whether or not it's Rogan's fault is completely irrelevant. Joe Rogan is undermining science all the time and contributing to the very culture that leads to people trusting him over institutions or scientific consensus. What is more important right now is that humanity gets their shit together and Joe Rogan is leading people into the opposite direction of where they need to go.

Yes, it's beyond realization even. Reality is so Divine and Impossible, that all that can exist is this, without any fooling. That this is not fooling, that it is not illusion, because reality does not require illusions. Reality has no limitation. This is Absolute. The ants mind us Truth, Absolute Truth. There is no untruthfulness, unless it is true that there is Untruthfulness. The Divine, the Impossible, the Groundless Ground is found in the mundane, because the mundane is the Infinte, it is the Impossible, it is the Divine. See, when you lacked the realization you had, that was still Absolute, that was still Truth. Nothing about your realization is more real than your non-realization. And when you realize this, you realize that the Christian singing in the church or the Muslim praying on his carpet, fearing God, is Divinity. It is not Ignorance, it is Absolute Truth. The Contradiction is intentional. There needs to be no fooing of anything, there needs to be no trickery, no illusion, no depth. There has never been any trickery, because the finite is the infinite. Nothing in existence is removed or seperated. Existence simply is. See, all of this, is just more of it. See how it continues, and it continues, can you see the groundess ground? It is right here, the abyss, the infinite. Free Will. It's so free, it could forget what you just realized for Eternity, and it would not be an issue. It does not need a Ground, it never had a Ground. And any realization you will ever have, will be your attempt to Ground yourself. But look, look and see the Abyss, that it is even more impossible than you could have ever imagined. That it is so impossible, not even impossibility captures it, that it is so uncapturable, that it is captured.

You are getting it all wrong my friend. You not only can create and imagine anything you want, you already did. You already created absolutely everything in the precise way you want it to be, there is nothing more to create.Your human existence is part of your perfect creation and imagination, your limitation already is the creation of your will out of thin air. Everything that is here, right now, is your creation, including you complaining about how you cannot imagine this or that. That is part of your imagination. Your contracted human ego is not your will. Your Will is Free, it is Absolute, it is Divine, and it created this out of thin air. You have created everything never seen before in existence, into existence. The prove that you are God is that you want prove for God. That is your Will. You Will was to forget what you are, forget your power. That is your Power. Just look at your Creation. Look at these colors. Never before in have these colors been seen, nothing like them existed before, and you created them from Nothing. They should not exist, but they do, because your Wisdom endless.

Rogan is doing more damage than CNN, by far. Rogan is a misinformation machine.

Whataboutism.

it's interesting because the first thing I thought of when the billionaire said that nobody cares about this issue and that we first need to take care of ourselves was you when you basically said the same thing about animal rights as a response to advocating for personal responsibility.

I think alot of people are still very much grounded in orange, it's kind of hard to escape that considering our culture pulling towards it. So naturally people with orange-green tendencies will be more popular today. However, more healthy examples, and people who I think are more grounded in green, would be people like Earthling Ed, Joaquin Phoenix or Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG. Other than that I have a hard time of thinking of people right now. If you think of the three people I mentioned, you will notice that all of them would probably be more or less comfortable crying on camera. Now, imagine Hasan or Vaush crying on camera. They would absolutely cringe at themselves. Oh Sam Seder is probably a better example of green too, however I view him also to have tons of orange inside him. It's better than Vaush and Hasan though for sure. And Mr Girl of course I would consider green pretty much atleast from what I have seen, also much better than Vaushan.

I don't really go about it that way at all. I basically get a sense of how green they are based on how I intuit their progress on all the different lines of development, so it is an absolute category not a relative one. When I analyse it that way, especially people like vaush and hasan are more grounded in orange than green. To me Hasan and Vaush are really, really bad examples of stage green, well of course because I don't think hey are stage green. Pointing to them and saying they are green misrepresents I think what is envisioned by the model to be someone grounded in stage green.

The reason why they are so popular is because they aren't even half green, they are orange with a little bit of green imo. You guys categorize these things completely differently from me and I am not sure how you are going about it. Hasan is extraordinarily superficial, you can just see orange all over his personality and values. The same is true for vaush and his antagonistic debate bro values and hyper-intellectualism without real concern for truth. When Spiral Dynamics was established there was no internet culture. Again, the internet is a game changer in terms of dynamics. The model is outdated and would require re-adjustments.

What did you enjoy about this? I still am surprised that you are so attracted to Hasan and Vaush they are insufferable to me.

Sure, but many people will feel the same way about Leo for example. Just because it didn't help you doesn't mean it doesn't help others. I think people are quite biased in these regards.