Scholar

I think people like Andrew Tate will keep emerging, because stage green has demonized stage orange to such an extent, that no healthy manifestation of stage orange is even allowed. There is a reason why people like him are popular, and as long as you ignore that reason you'll be playing Whac-A-Mole.

This is 3 years old, and even if I wouldn't say Destiny is solid yellow, he is definitely breaching into it.

I mean just an nugget of insight that the literal night's sky, throughout human history, was basically used as a "harddrive" of human imagination, which allowed us to map onto a constant... well "map", concepts which were important to us, and therefore the sky served as an ankerpoint for transfering ideas throughout time, that's just amazing. Also the idea the function of an artist can be to give direction to humanity through the usage of intuition is also amazing. They talk about tautologies and Peterson said "That's Gods defintion of himself: I am that I am". Amazing. Also another insight relation to Spiritual Seeking: You can't know whether or not something leads to truth before you act it out, you have to have faith. And think about how this relates to spiritual seeking. And think about how, to spiritually seek, you have to intuit it, you have to be pulled towards it in some shape or form, and you have to have faith in that intuition. If you do not, how would you ever stumble onto God? In other words, if God did not left a bread crumb trail for you to find him, how could you possible hope to find him? What's interesting here is that God left bread crumb trails everywhere, so that you can find him, as long as you have faith in that which you know is Good. Without the compass, you'd be lost.

I know we love to hate on Jordan, but I think Curt Jaimungel was able to tickle some good insights out of Peterson in this interview, definitely worth a watch:

Okay you do you my dude, I don't have time for this.

What are you even talking about? The lawyer thing was an example to illustrate the point, it's not related to what people in HU do. And no, demand wouldn't increase because supply is lower, it would just mean their value rises because of the ratio between supply and demand changing. His solution doesn't scale either. In our current system, most people will always be 9-5ers, that's simply the reality of capitalism. The difference is, he is not proposing some quick fix to get rich, for the reasons I mentioned above. Just think about this for 10 seconds and it will make sense to you. If nobody was selling dirt, because nobody knew dirt was valuable, and then some guy comes along making you pay money so that you can sell dirt, sure you might be able to sell dirt for money, but only as long as most people are unaware of the fact that you can sell dirt. If the aquiring of dirt is easy, then the entire value of the business lies in you having exclusive knowledge of it existing, because everyone can go outside and collect some dirt. So, by the virtue that someone is trying to sell this idea to the masses, selling dirt will become worthless. The more accessible the knowledge, the less valuable the knowledge. How is this so difficult to grasp? Because Destiny is correct about this, it doesn't take that much brainpower to realize this.

@KH2 The reason why Leo is saying this kind of advice doesn't scale is because, the more people you teach to do the things you are doing right now, the less valuable your service and strategy becomes. Being a lawyer or a doctor is a good way to make money, because so few people are lawyers and doctors, and because the demand is stable. If everyone were to become a lawyer, lawyers would make a lot less money. The reason why these kinds of things are so valuable is precisely because they are not easy to do. That's how value is created in the world. The kind of strategy you are proposing only works so long as people are unaware of them. The easier it is to do, the less valuable it will end up being.

The question is, if it was not benefitial to the propaganda apparatus, why wouldn't they simply already ban Youtube? How does the current regime benefit from Youtube? And by the way, russians already use sites like Yandex. I'm not sure to what degree Google and Youtube counteract propaganda in Russia, but I do know the degree to which having these actors on these platforms is damaging to the information landscape in the west. These platforms are intentionally used to destabilize our societies, which in my view is the biggest challenge we face in the 21st century.

Well yes some red flags are valid, I'm not saying you should just date everyone.

Not my intuition at all, I think he is hyperselective and the way he has framed things, at least in the past because I haven't watched many of his latest videos, was pretty selfishly motivated.

Yes, I very much disagree with the idea of red-flags and being kind of over-cautious. Leo advocates for this idea, and yes it is an effective survival strategy, but I think it kind of is communicating the wrong things on a large scale. I don't want everyone to be evaluating each other by random metrics, that in the end are probably largely irrelevant to the way they would live together. Obviously one doesn't have to be unwise about it, but I think looking at relationships as a vehicle of growth for both individuals, is important. And this is not just about romantic relationships. I think on a larger scale, because of modern technologies, we can pick and choose our friends, and we can easily push out "dysfunctional" people altogether by labelling them toxic and so forth. But that will not really fix the issue, people will just get more isolated, more dysfunctional, and everything will get worse for everyone. Instead of playing this kind of evaluation game where everyone separates into their own groups, I think we need to view connections as something that is helpful and necessary for individuals. A lot of growth can happen to individuals if they have others who help them and give them a reason to be motivated. If we tell them "Ah, you're a loser and dysfunctional anyways!", we are just further pushing them away and not helping them at all, even if we could. This kind of selflessness needs to be further encouraged, contrasting todays idea of everything being about trying to fullfill one's own desires. That is incredibly myopic and selfish. It's basically the scarcity attitude we are living. By seeking those "high value" people, we are creating the problem that there are only so many of such individuals around, rather trying to create system where we create more such individuals. It just becomes a selfish rat race, where everyone wants to snatch from the top. But this completely fails to recognize that we are social animals, and that our social environments shape us. We are literally pushing people to become more selfish and lower quality.

It's fine, we seem to both not quite trust each other's words, lol. Always more to learn, especially these conversations on forums can be quite challenging for me because I am an intuitive person, and I think I don't come off as well on text.

Sure, good that you pointed that out! Though I think it can give them some motivation knowing that it is possible, and usually people are very resistant to the idea of leaving a relationship if it's their own comfort that prevents intense suffering. I'm not trying to be passive aggressive at all, just point out what I am certain of. Maybe I should not be as certain of it as I am, but your responses only nudge me further into that direction. I do have a tendency to mirror people's energy, so there is probably something you can extract about yourself from my interactions with you.

Yes, what you propose is a bad idea. But that is not what I am proposing. And it actually is possible to influence others in tremendous ways, if one is capable of radiating genuine love. The way most people attempt to fix others has nothing to do with love. Most people are too stuck in their own suffering to help anyone. Like you for example, I can sense fear and suffering in you, that would makes you blind and ignorant to the suffering of others. Your mind does not allow you to be open-hearted, because it has to fear to protect itself from the suffering of this world. And of course, wisdom is a requirement here, too. The idea of fixing someone is an idea stemming from the resistance towards what is. That is not Love.

Not all men are accepting these things, but what you must understand is that we are living in a time of uncertainty and exploration. Norms have been challenged, the world has moved on, and social dynamics have been altered. All of this in an era of human self-indulgence. There are a lot of things happening, a lot of moving parts. And people are afraid, they are suffering, they are addicted. Their minds are struggling in these new environments. And before we can develope the wisdom needed to navigate this new world, there will be a lot of suffering. A lot of fear, dogmatism, loneliness. You haven been swept up by these forces, falling into fear yourself. Like the men who have a certain idea of what women are and want, you now have fallen into the same trap. You have an idea of men and what they deem to be okay and not okay. What matters here are not your ideas, but your fear, your suffering. You have to recognize this and look inward, and mature. Once you do, the suffering of this world will be revealed to you, and you will understand perfectly well why men and women say and do the things they do. They are blind children, clawing for happiness, in a world in which their minds have been altered in ways so that what they seek cannot ever fullfill them. A world which needs to take the next step, the step that you must take too. You have so much more potential than you think. You can not only be a person who has their own selfish desires fullfilled, you can be the one who inspires others. There is no other solution here, because that is our place on the earth. We must mature, that is the purpose of our suffering.

You definitely need to work on your self-esteem issues and your inner wounds, as you described them. As long as you don't resolve them you will fall into codependencies with other people, and accept things in your life that you would not if you were of healthy mind and heart. Maybe Emerald's work will resonate more with you, watch some of her videos and apply them: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheDiamondNet/videos And you also need to learn communication skills. If you like the person you are with, and they are making you feel uncomfortable like this, communicate and discuss that with them. It takes maturity to be able to communicate one's own desires and needs, and for a healthy relationship that kind of maturity is just paramount. I have had relationships with very dysfunctional people, and I was able to heave them out of the depths of hell because I was able to interact with them in a mature way. You can be an example if you develope yourself, someone who can bring out the potential in people. It takes some level of distance and wisdom, but that is all this work is about. If you are dependent though, it will be difficult to truly interact with people in a genuine and authentic way, simply because of fear. Your fear will stifle all love in your relationships.

If Destiny wasn't a debate bro, he would have never been able to influence Sneako the way he is doing here. One of the important things about Spiral Dynamics is that people need individuals close to their stage to kind of guide them on a healthy pathway towards the next stage, or to keep them from falling into all the pitfalls of the different stages. You cannot connect to people at lower levels if you cant engage them on their level. The problem with Stage green and why it is so dysfunctional at the moment is because there was a runaway effect. People transitioned to fast, left people behind which then just lead to a dig heels in the sand moment, each reacting to the other. The further one side is apart from the other, the less likely it is that an individual will transition to the other side. It becomes more and more difficult for evolution to take place. This is why the current stage green evolutionary pathway must be cut off, and we have to build a better pathway towards the high stages. Destiny is basically serving that function, but we need far more people to do so.

@Carl-Richard Think of it this way. Someone who looks back at medieval times, and says "wars were so useless, such an unnecessary way of life! Wars should have never happened!", is not really looking at things through a systemic lense. If you look at wars, sure they are ugly. A lot of people die, it's a tragedy. But that's a moralistic approach to the question. The systems thinking approach would ask questions like: "Why did wars happen? Did wars serve an important function in the developmental context of the time? How were wars necessary and essential for the development and evolution of mankind?" etc. Can you see that these questions are fundamentally different from the first sets of statements someone might make, who demonizes war? Now, when you say "Debates are a waste of time! Debate is not convincing anyone! Debate bro culture is silly!", you are doing the same thing. Rather, find answers to these questions: Why is debate culture emerging? Why is debate culture so popular now? What function does debate culture serve on a systemic and societal level? What necessary function might debates serve within this context of development? How is debate culture necessary for the evolution of mankind? I want you to assume that there is a good and important reason for the existence of these dynamics. That they serve a grand evolutionary process. Use that as a default approach to anything that happens on a systemic level. You are free to look at those barbarians beneath you, and judge them from the top of the mountain for the silly games they are playing. But this really just means that you are the fool, for not seeind the grander picture. For not seeing that they are enacting a force that contains far more wisdom than you ever will. A force that you can only hope to partially decypher with your limited human mind. And once you approach things from that kind of lense, the more things in reality you approach from that kind of perspective, the wiser you will grow. Stop assuming that just because you are more developed than others, that you are above reality itself. Because that is what you are criticizing here, the intelligence and wisdom of evolution itself. Maybe debate bro culture is a fundamental stepping stone towards the evolution of an intelligent species. Look at it precisely the other way around. Look at debate culture, look at war, and realize "Oh my god, this is what will lead to the kingdom of heaven.". Only then will you be free of your blinding arrogance, and recognize that being part of this culture, might very well mean being part of the evolutionary process on earth. Look at Adolf Hitler, and see in him a bringer of peace. Someone who has brought to earth a century of unprecedented stability, by confronting mankind with the limitations of their selfishness and lack of wisdom. This is how evolution happens, and this is how it will continue to happen, until we grow beyond it.

It's like you are saying that swords shouldn't be used in all situations. Of course, that's obvious. With Destiny it's a bit complex because he literally is a debater, but in that context what he is doing is what you could expect from someone breaching into Tier 2. He has developed, over the past year or so, a very good sense of when the sword is appropriate and when it is not. There is a reason why Destiny is so good at deradicalizing people, and he is also very aware of his own limitations. See, Spiral Wizardry doesn't mean you can influence everyone to the ultimate degree as if you can mind-control them. No, it means that you are aware of when and how you can influence them, and in what regards you are limited in influencing them. The fact that Destiny is so flexible with his approach is what makes him so wizardry. He is not as ideologically attached to one approach, and he is focused on "what works", rather than how he wants the world to be. You can pretend debates are not effective at influencing people, but debates are still had, and it's the battlefields of the 21st century. You can choose to not participate in them, but then don't complain when the world shifts towards toxic stage orange because nobody is willing to go down to their level to face them in the arena. Wars are not always about convincing the other side, sometimes it's simply about one side not being able to take over the entire world.

Interviewing someone and being able to influence them through interfacing with them is not the same thing. Read the post I wrote fully and you will realize why MrGirl is clearly less developed than Destiny, he shows all the hallmarks of Tier 1 limitations, he infact is defined by them. A stage green person interviewing and making lower stage individuals feel nice is worlds apart from spiral wizardry. Richard used MrGirl as a tool, he does not have an ounce of respect for him. The only people MrGirl is influencing is the small subset of the population which is at a particular developmental stage to be ready to take steps into the orange-green perversion which is MrGirls ideology.

Destiny played it perfectly here, it's probably the best move with the best outcome that was possible. He resonated with him because he lowered himself to his level, and was able to win him over to the extent to which that is possible. What you offered is not a Tier 2 approach at all, what you offered is actually what someone at a lower stage would assume a Tier 2 approach to look like. It's hard to argue why exactly this is, but if you approached Sneako with the attitude you did there you would have been crushed and not achieved anything. It's like how stage green interacts with stage red, it just doesn't work. They don't understand stage red, and they don't understand what it takes to influence stage red. They approach it from their own lense, from their own stage of development. They think they can fix stage red, they think they know what stage red needs and wants. But they do not. MrGirl is the perfect example. His attitude is a good mixture of stage green and orange, and that is exactly the type of person who he resonates with. He would actually be incapable of interfacing with people of lower stages, and that's because he is not Tier 2. His idea of what is good conversation, what is convincing, is not what is convincing to others. What Destiny did here is literally the perfect example, 10/10, of spiral wizardry. Text-book execution, masterful. Tier 2 knows when it's the right time to pull the sword and fight to the death, whereas ideologues and Tier 1 thinkers like MrGirl would face reality and perish. Their perspective, their attitude, their system of thinking, is functional in a very narrow spectrum of development. To the greater degree you are Tier 2, to the greater degree you will be flexible and capable of interfacing with all developmental stages. MrGirl has this naive and narrow notion of development, where he attempts to create an absolute resolution to the problem, where he says "This is the way, this will fix everything, if people were only more like this!". But that is not true. His perspective only works on a specific subset of the population, solving a very narrow field of limitations. Tier 2 recognizes that you cannot just heave people into heaven. You can't get greedy, rather than projecting your own potential onto them, you start to realize that you cannot change a person fundamentally, but that you can influence them. And once you realize that, you can focus on that which is productive, that which will lead to actual progress. You help them to do one small baby step, rather than deluding yourself that you can carry them to the top of the mountain. And that is precisely the delusion MrGirl suffers from, which is his biggest limitation. Notice how you think that Tier 2 is one specific approach, "Tier 2 looks like what MrGirl is doing!". But that literally is Tier 1 thinking. Tier 2 is flexible and adaptible, the very notion of a "right approach", is flawed. Like I said, Tier 2 can look like war, because sometimes war is the best and most effective solution to the problem. Only someone of Tier 1 would say they would let the jews get holocausted because they don't want to use mindcontrol on people. MrGirl would have talked to the Nazi's, tried to convince them otherwise. You know that this approach would be limited, in clear ways. That's why he is not Tier 2, Tier 2 will recognize that war was the best and most loving solution.

Of course it's Tier 2. The Tier 1 relativists will think that everyone is unique and there are no patterns in what leads to human fullfillment and happiness, but that is simply not true. By your logic Leo's entire work is Tier 1. Additionally, Destiny (like a spiral wizard ), intentionally frames things in a way that will resonate with the person he will talk to. Meaning, he is aware that not everyone will enjoy a certain lifestyle, but that most people are delusional about the kind of lifestyle their pursuit, thinking that they are the unique butterfly for whom this is just the right thing. It's actually one Tier 2 thing Destiny lately has adopted, where he will adjust the frameworks and narratives he uses, and the certainty with which he makes certain claims, because he is aware of how it will otherwise be perceived by an individual at a certain stage. By the way, he was successful in doing this, because he Sneako changed his position and recognized he doesn't actually want to pursuit the kind of lifestyle Andrew Tate is aspousing. So this is the worst example you could have used to show he is Tier 1. He did precisely what someone like Sneako would respect, delivering it with conviction and a lack of relativity/ambivalence. Remember, someone like Sneako won't respect your nonsense if you tell them "Well, maybe this isn't for you Sneako, most people don't find fullfillment in this!". People like him need that kind of confrontation for it to sink in.

This is a really good framework to help understanding today's dating culture, and what's currently going on in the red-pill communities. If you watch that, and then this: You'll really get a good grasp of where things are currently heading and what kind of pitfalls are awaiting Stage Orange sexual culture. It explains why people like Andrew Tate are currently so popular and it explains incel culture on a systemic level. And the obvious systemic inadequacies of the prevalent culture. You can view this as the extreme's of stage orange.

I know, multiple moderators on this forum have left or given up their moderation role because of Leo's lack in this regard. Not sure if Leo can do much about it to be honest, but combined with his overconfidence it can be a little annoying sometimes, lol. But hey we all have our flaws, maybe it's one of the reasons why he can focus so much on the things he has focused on. But I do think certain takes he has have to be taken with a grain of salt, and people ought to be aware of that in my opinion. He has developed a bit more awareness around this for the past few years, where he is recognizing that he is pretty different from people and lacks experience in certain domains completely.

No, I think Leo has a literal lack of capacity for empathy. I'm not talking about him choosing to ignore it, I'm talking about him lacking structures in his brain that give him the capacity to perceive certain things. And it's sometimes mindblowing to me that people don't recognize this, it's like the most obvious thing in the world to me.