Sri Ramana Maharshi

It could be debated (and already has been by some) that deep sleep is "nothingness", but states have touched this body that are deeper. 1.) Jhana in full Commentarial Absorbtion. Source: Hard Jhana/full relative time stop/direct consciousness in personal practice. Secondary source: Visuddhimagga/Vimuttimagga, and other individuals alive now (anecdotal) such as Ajahn Brahm for example. This is deeper than "deep sleep" delta waves, since in deep sleep one's body can have contact at the ear sense door, and awaken from slumber. In Absorption one is fully disconnected from "mind" and the 5 sense doors, including hearing. Most markedly, from the standpoint of an outside observer, the body barely takes in breath and is basically comatose. Otherwise it doesn't qualify for commentarial Jhana. This isn't even to mention Nirodha Samapatti, which I won't even unpack here. 2.) Nibbana, defined this time as the cessation of all formations (not just mental, but those found at Contact with the 5 bodily Aggrigates). Personal practice source: Annica 3 doors experience, body skips like a flat rock against VOID. Things really are quite simple, but if we try and simplify them too much in concept, it's just gibberish and folks get confused and waste time in fear and traps, or more tragic forms of ridiculous do-er-ship. Ramana mentioned in his collected works that deep sleep was a time when the world was gone, but he *may* not have realized that the substrate "I-I" was an impermanence wave that comes and goes. In any case, the Buddha gave a much more exhaustive and useful treatment of these issues with his elucidation of the 4 noble truths and particularly the 3 Lakhanas of conditioned existence. I don't mention these states and terms in order to be literal or fundamentalist, but if we do practice/yoga, self-inq. whatever, then we have to come up with a consistant language in which to communicate our efforts. Without that, it's a bunch of idiots pasting ridiculous pictures at each other and spinning in content. Uh oh! Snap.

This is so accurate and has almost happened to me at least twice during the last 8-10 years of doing this "work". It seems to be just another shadow trap that the sense of self uses to gain by contraction, trying to purge itself of that which might lead to openess or accountability. Very well put Leo!! I remember Shinzen Young mentioning that this phenomena of seeing "less spiritual folks" as merely a newb/intermediate step in the path, which will be long outgrown prior to mastery. One masterful teacher whom I work with personally once told me, "Like Christ, we meet people where they are." For the kidz: If you are a level 90 archmage, it doesn't mean you mock and throw fireballs at a level 20 mage, because you know they are gaining experience and will eventually level up. You worry about your own spells.

Looks to me like you are kicking total ass, exploring your feelings, heart, mind, guy, and the way that complex interacts with the sense of "self" and "world". In other words, you are bravely walking the path (your path), like we all will, regardless of what we "think". You seem to be a smart and sensitive guy. I too, get uptight and stressed and can have trouble remembering that there is nothing but reason to relax. I can choose to fall apart, and feed off of that taste as well. Get into an argument with the above pictured guy about genetics, and he will be "right" every fucking time. Sorry Charlie. He even knows a bit more about non-dual than you might first imagine, being collegues with Susan Blackmore and all. Just saying.

Get into an argument with the above pictured guy about genetics, and he will be "right" every fucking time. Sorry Charlie. He even knows a bit more about non-dual than you might first imagine, being collegues with Susan Blackmore and all. Just saying.

Joseph, You are obviously a thoughtful, hardworking, and sensive guy, and you seem sincere. I love Nasargadatta's paper, and I gain lots of devotion from it too at times, when other practices become too tech and my head spins. Yet, I am leary/wary of instructions where one is told to employ "blind" faith and devotion to a "guru". The whole guru concept is a very very dangerous one. In Catholicism, the Pope is concedered God on earth, and nearly unquestionable. This isn't "the path" to IMHO. Good luck, and sincere Metta! Ramana

Rep+++ for Mighty Mouse, if I can figure out how. If you are a Zen Devil, does that mean that the Roshi is Lucifer, and the stick he hits you with is a Trident. Sorry, can't help it, it's 5:30am!!

Try putting on Tupac (Me against the World) in the background with this! It's resplindant!!! ;-p "Reality in 400 forum pieces"

How can you call such a beautiful animal "low consciousness...", I mean, you egoic meanie! We'd be lost without him, like if he left the forum, there'd be no way to replace his singular "value" haha, god this gets funner and funner!

Excellent!

@Ocean: Totally!

Not trying to be a smarty-pants, but there was a thread elsewhere where a guy was complaining about his opinion of "what's wrong with this forum.." Now setting aside the ridiculous nature of the inquiry for a moment, look at this here quote ^^^^ "Strange loops" --- Common people. Look up Martin Gardner's "AHA - Gotcha - Paradoxes to Puzzle and delight" and in the first chapter is a the paradox "This sentence is false". Back in 1985 when I was 10 years old, my aunt and uncle bought me that book, which I still read sometimes at age 44. There's nothing revolutionary or new about strange loops and there are paradoxes that would leave your koan muscles broken and whimpering. Ain't nothin' new, even though Leo gets up on his videos and presents it like it's Turkish Delight. Much of the impact of his more dramatic shit is contingent upon the fact that you guys are impressionable little young guys, and just haven't heard of a lot yet, nor been as hard working as Leo has in reading books. Reading books won't get you Realization, but it sure will show you that the concepts Leo brings to the fore have been tossed around since ancient times, and he is merely repackaging them for their most recent paradigmal incarnation/reincarnation for you guys. This can be positive, until it starts sounding like the tautological echoings of Minah birds, and then the folks who could really contribute, who really have experience dealing with their defilements run for more stratified pastures. (I know, some dip shit is about to say, "What defilements?") I've been wondering why there doesn't seem to be a lot of high quality Buddhist discussion on here/Vipassana/Jhana/Etc. It could be because that requires actual work, not copycatting, posing, and just bullshit like "standing in awareness" until you are magically "free". For many aspirants, the Vedanta dream of Eternalism, joining with God, or similar crap, is simply the ultimate ego dream of the survival sense transmigrating (requiring the bullshit substrate of a "soul") and eternal life. If we are going to entertain such chicanery, we might as well throw in the towel and return to God damn fucking church. Leo is correct that if you fall into "scientism" then you will be in the map trap, believing matter is real, etc. Yet he's deluded when he says that Materialism/Natural philosophy is harder to get "un-brainwashed" from than religion. No scientific body ever decided to pour molten lead into women's vaginas due to suspician of being witches. If it was that age, Leo would already be hanging upside down. Luckily rational minds usually prevent that these days, the very rationalism that Leo rants against as if he was raped by a scientist in his youth (hope that wan't the case). It's not that rational thought is all bullshit, it's simply that we must retain the non-binary functionality (Wisdom/acceptance of opposites) to know when to be rational and when to use our intuition...when to "let go" etc. Looking into your own heart will show this, not looking at the shapes of your peers. Of course we have to laugh, and not take so many things seriously and this forum is really good for some deep deep belly laughs.

Or you could just shut down the computer and take an Ativan. This isn't Ego, it's simply what is happening now here. <gulp> ...as the sedative kicks in one begins contemplation of how important it is to maintain a light flexibility, tolerance for others, and an enjoyment and cultivation of one's sense of humor at all times. Brother, if you aren't laughing at about every minute at this point, this is going to be a hard path, with many mental institution visits along the way. It was here, until I somehow learned to laugh at myself and my more deparate attempts. Great Metta to you and all success on your quest for Being, and Sat-Chit-Ananda, or whatever the hell you're after! Love, Sri Beetle Baba

@Faceless Well, I live in a community in the Southern U.S. where sharing isn't very valued, since people generally just work 60 hours a week, and are so unhappy when they get home, all they can do is slam a case of beer and pass out in front of the TV. Talk about Nihilistic abidance! So when a joker like me starts yapping about "examining the concomitants which create our very experience, rather than trying to fix or manipulate it.." I quickly receive the "gas face". My Dhamma teacher lives on the west coast, where things are progressive and you don't have to worry about getting shot for this kind of talk, so he doesn't always empathize. I don't have Sangha or many people interested in general Mysticism to commune with in person, so occasionally it can be fun to interact and learn things from people just like yourself, and everyone else on this great forum...even Leo. Any jokes or ribbings are intended to be good natured and not harsh speech or hurtful. I trust i will be justifiably snapped at immediately if such a thing transpires, since I don't want to cause harm.

Sat, Chit, Ananda!!!

Back to the topic the starter Catalyzed (or whatever you are supposed to call it on forums when someone starts a thread): I don't think there's that big of a problem on this forum, although I don't participate much. Yes, the noise floor is high, and by that I mean there is a lot of talk, but not all of it is pragmatic and non circle-jerkular. But that's ok. The sparkle of the gold makes it worth sifting through that black sand. Some of the pontificating that comes out of Leo's mouth and keyboard used to really blow me away, like "Oh my god, no way...he's got to be losing it." But then 6 months later a Direct Consciousness occurs that winds up congnizing itself into an edifice unmistakably overlapping some of Leo's more arcane Magesteria, and I have to say to myself (and occasionally to Leo personally), "Damn, he couldn't have hit that nail much harder on the head." ...well, excepting the contengency of him posting on Twitter or Instagram, where the videos would not be 1hr 52 minutes long every time with a sermon from the spiritual/intellectual ego real good stuf some of his shit, and brave. +1 for leo's credibility, public frog or not! I do with there were more older folks on here, but that just might be a reflection of my age and loneliness. Metta all.

Totally. And I do suffer sometimes. The real bitch of it is that now, after some years, it can be seen that an aspect of experience that imagines it is real is sometimes given the "option" to suffer within a free choiceless awareness. Or at least you can become into a painful abidance. After a time that can be enjoyable though, and that is a different distinction that I make than suffering itself (at least as defined in the 4 truths). The scope of becoming seems to run much deeper than anything psychological too (not to point to anything scary, but just saying). Thinking is suffering, and I sometimes grasp that (like right now) if I think it's worth it. Like caring about you, makes me want to share this, and I have to become into some ego that thinks that there is accretion or gain for the sense of "me"...like somehow I can get more Insight or become a better "teacher" someday through this experience of communication with you, while hoping not to piss you off or sound like an aloof dickhead. Metta and Compassion

..In addition, attachments make the communication failure really painful, grasping that and running time back a frame makes it suffering.

I struggle with communication too, my friend. Self forgiveness/acceptance/surrender (eventually) helps. It's the path after all. My character either over or under communicate in person...same in forums/email (case in point).

Ouch. I see dukkha... ...with clarity.

You seem Enlightened NOW.

...and here's a key secret that works well for me that I'll share: Relax! Lean back every now and then into some pussy/dick and drink a beer, or pet your dog or cat for a while. Take a nap, but set your alarm for 15 minutes for fuck's sake. :-)

Try Vipassana. Practice properly. If this is the case, Insight will come. It may or not be "useful". I guess that's all bound up in translation/interpretation and concept. All the jumping straight to full realization/Buddha-hood crap seems to be anecdotal bullshit for the lazy. The Eternalism garbage in the Vedanta/Divine/Shakti stuff is just the "oh wow, I'm saved" garbage reincarnated. You might as well hang it up and go back to church. The reason why Buddhism is so popular is because the Buddha and his pals actually did probe reality much deeper than the Vedantists (IMO) and we have the datas you can check with your own body to prove it to yourself. Over December I was practicing 30-35 hours a week (worth it), but then I wasn't working at the time. Try the Vimuttimagga/Vissudhimagga and the Long Discourses. However, if you are practicing Vipassana for 90 days or more and have no Insight, you aren't understanding or implementing proper technique. I've never seen or heard of a case of a human being practicing Mahasi Style mental notation (or body scanning/jhana/Anapani/whatever) properly and getting no Insight. Truly that would be hard to believe [understatement]. Even the first one - Mind and Body, would be a revolutionary change for one's abiding, not to mention everything from there to K.E.R.F./S.U.N.++. For some, it has worked without any "belief" in Buddhist stuff at all. The mind simply sees the 4 truths and 3 marks and jumps through to less stressful abiding, sometimes without the "user" realizing what transpired until major changes happen in the world and sense of self, leaving them torn and lighter. The technique for Mahasi Style dry Insight is blindingly simple. So much so that most aspirants imagine that they have to "do" way more and screw it up that way. They can't believe deep insight could be gained by simply noting impingements on the 5 aggrigates rapidly and accurately. I wasted a couple years at least overdoing and overthinking my practice...and especially seeking, even though I had already "found" everything. Now that confidence has arrived, reading is light and mainly serves the end of facilitating sharing with others and learning how to better communicate these factors. ...of course I would not necessarily recommend this stuff to kids anymore than the other junk discussed on here, but then that's up to the kid, not me.

Another pretty good source for Jhana and other concentration tips is in Daniel Ingrams Hardcore Dhamma practice book, I am paraphrasing the title atm. But then if you are going to use that, might as well jump right on into Vipassana, after a small amount of initial concentration/following breaths. However, his fire Kasina instructions are incredible and work wonders for many students to get into the Jhanas and more very rapidly. Nimitta based practices are like "Prednizone" for your Samadhi (concentration), if you don't mind some reflex/cultivated hallucination in your life, perhaps for a long time hahaha! Worth it!

Yoga? Body (or breath based) meditation IS raja yoga. If you can allow the choppier/courser vibes to settle in favor of more subtle movements you will get deeper, and gain insight. Then again it takes some yogis/yoginis a few years to purify/pacify those course vibrations. Apply the 4 truths to the feedback loops. No reason to take forever if you are mindful of what is happening with your attention, and what attitudes lead to letting go of tension. Sounds like what Therevada buddhism maps as Jhana. The experience if vastly more powerful than orgasms however, even multiple/tantric (well, tantric could be an exception at times, but that is for Insight.) Jhana is a concentration practice, which if I am not incorrect, some TIbetan practitioners also attain via different but similar techniques. See Leigh Brasington's Right Concentration - Practical Guide to the Jhanas, or The Vissudhimagga/Vimmutimagga for the hardcore details/instructions. These practices, when used for more than just simple craven "pleasure feeding", build discernment, sharpening "Manjushri's Sword." Valuable skills can be built, such as learning the difference between discernment and delusion/hindrance....Makyo and Kensho, or peace vs. fear and disaster. Plus the kind of surrender needed for full Jhanic absorption is good human training for A&P or Magga Phala, if one chooses to find these maps useful in their work. On the other hand, some only use Jhana for pleasure seeking, and fail to see the insights, don't gain discernment, and worse -- use Jhana to escape responsibility from life's grit by hiding in Bliss. So I'd keep an eye on that, since that's not the path (out of suffering). Metta! -B