Elisabeth

Great topic Hum. There's actually not much I full on disagree with, but there's a lot of shades and degrees where I'm not quite on board. I remember strongly disagreeing with Leo's early "relationship" advice. Really superficial. Ever since noticing how careless Leo is with numbers, I let them one ear in the other ear out. I do get annoyed by the repeated critique of scientists. We may be ignorant of spirituality but we're not quite as ignorant of the metaphysics of science as Leo likes to stress. I tend to be careful with all the 'reality=infinite loving consciousness' stuff explained lately. It sounds like a story. Nothing wrong with stories, but I'll wait till I have the experience - and maybe craft a different story around it. (Yet I deeply appreciate the explanation on how reality has to have paradoxes in it's very structure.) I tend to disagree on cutting out dairy, though I haven't done enough research yet. Here in the center of Europe milk has been for thousands of years what sustained people throughout a long winter. Unlike the US where everyone's a mix of races, I think most people here do process milk just fine. (Though there's surely such a thing as too much of it.) And I do strongly believe in yogurt The whole mindset of "you have to improve yourself, there's nothing more important to life" - I bought into it quite a bit but I don't think it's true or beneficial for everyone, in particular, I have to be way softer or else I collapse. I disagree with Leo's advice to people to breath intensely without pausing for 20-90 minutes with the "shamanic breathing". Or at least so it seems from the video. I think some people will push themselves too far. As much as I've learned about Grof's technique, not pausing is not required. But I'm not sure I'll only be attending my first seminar next week, so maybe I'll know more then. Anyway, Leo, nice to see you back

+1 on Zoey. If you miss them, try to make up with them. One by one, if easier.

This one may be mainly for women but it certainly doesn't hurt http://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Come-as-You-Are/Emily-Nagoski/9781476762098

@The Don On one level it doesn't matter what other people think of you, on another - where you do want to be ABLE to be around people, get invited to events, and both have fun and be fun to be around - it does. You want to find at least some groups where you can strike a balance, and be both relaxed and authentic enough to feel well, and socially acceptable. So what I suggest is you study social interaction hands on. You go out, act in a way that's engaged with people, you observe and ask them questions, you pick up clues, you stay mindful and you learn. What is the behaviour that others regard as awkward? Do all people think so? How do you feel in different situations? What are the conditions that make you feel well? How do you recreate them? If you don't feel well, what's the reason? What's it pointing to, where did you first experience the feeling? How can you cope better with the particular interaction? What are the ways to make others laugh or feel well, what contributes to the interaction being pleasant to everyone, how can you help "glue" the group together? Does structure help, do you feel better at organized events? Or the opposite? Try organizing something yourself. Really talk to people. Learn their struggles. In what ways can you open up to certain people that you didn't think were possible? Why do people act the ways they act? Can you "see" through them or feel into them? Can you accept them with their flaws? What are the values other people have that don't match yours? Can you silently "agree to disagree" and still see the good in them? ... and anything else. Basically, you look for ways to make your interactions pleasant and positive while now avoiding your negative shit. I've been in this process for a while. It only seems improvement isn't coming your way because there are so many things to learn and skills to practice - but the practice needs not to be all unpleasant. Start from where you are and note the little realizations you have on the way.

I'm seeing some nice self-reflection here Be kind to yourself, as many guys will just disconnect and steamroll over these emotions and in that process also disconnect from the girl and steamroll over her. Fear of intimacy and fear of rejection are quite normal. I think you could honour your limits by taking it slower. You don't have to do a kiss on the first date. You could just ask her out for a second one - if she accepts you can already be more confident that she likes you. Even on date two, you can just go for holding her hand. Don't worry about being "slow". Many girls won't be ready for a kiss on the first date either. (Honestly, it would probably freak me out.) We're just as insecure and often indecisive and often slow to warm up to guys. Ultimately, yes, you'll just have to take action despite of your fear. Girls won't go first; we have one extra layer of fear that says 'it's inappropriate for me to initiate', and besides, hey, most of us do like it, if the guy is active and a bit dominant (just a bit). So feel the fear and do it anyway. But there's no point in doing it before you're both ready. Teal Swan has videos on the fear of intimacy, on how to connect etc., I don't know if these would be of any use to you.

I seems anxiety wreaks havoc. I had a few months of sitting for 20 every evening + sometimes I would do a longer sit just for the pleasure of it. Then I had stress and illness and fell into depression and anxiety and couldn't meditate at all. Now I'm trying again, but I'm struggling to do mere 10 min. Worse then before I started this.

You've got so much good going. Dropping everything might mean that it will be hard to pick it up again. Momentum is that way. I'd think maybe you want to keep at least some routine (maybe your meditation and voice exercise) even on vacation. What is it that you're tired of?

That's a mindfuck...

Are you the type of person who could just choose a goal - ANY goal - and go for it? Not try figuring out "purpose" and "passion" and just go for the satisfaction of accomplishing something you have decided to accomplish? Watch the "small bets" video (82). Just to know that even if you do find that "big" purpose you'll gonna have to test the waters.

You'll have to look into that yourself, as the salary would vary greatly among the different IT branches. Maybe my friend had some high demand skills. He's very clever. Anyway, Prague opportunities may or may not be good, but since you seem willing to move, you have a lot of places in the world to contemplate...

I'm in academia. I take ~1000 Eur. My friend in IT (with some experience) got the same for a half-time job while at school. If I flat-share, I pay about a third of it for accommodation. Single accommodation is too expensive unless I get really lucky. Like this, I to save about a fifth of my salary monthly (I don't feel like I'm trying too hard, but I do take care not to eat out too often). But I don't think you'll save much if you fly there and back to Sweden from time to time. I've been to Gothenburg for a conference. I found Swedish people somewhat emotionally distant but generally pleasant to be around.

I'm also keeping my distance from enlightenment work. I have no idea about awakenings. From my (low) standpoint I have no damn idea if what you're going through is one, or if it's some other kind of psychological issue where you fool yourself into thinking that you suffer because of an "ego death". I'm not distrusting you, but I really have no way to tell, and I don't know if you youself have a way to tell. And maybe it's both awakening and "illness". That's one reason why I'm trying to direct you to local help. Someone who can help you recognize and name your issues and decide on the course of action would be incredible. The other reason I'm trying to point you to real life people is that you sound extremely lonely. That is very common and understandable with any kind of issues. But human company, someone offering real presence and understanding, is one of the most effective and valuable healing tools. Any suffering is much more bearable if you're not alone in it, and not being alone in and of itself starts healing old trauma. Do you feel that presence and understanding from your therapist? The third reason is that it is likely that there are people even in your city who have been through a similar experience, or someone who is able and willing to just be with you and your process. People who can help in "alternative" ways will often not be very public about it. Exactly because you (and I) distrust both the medical path and hardcore spirituality, I suggest therapists. Or people who also have one foot in the west, one foot in the east. They are least likely to present their way as the only one possible. Also because you don't trust structures, I suggest you trust people. Like not blindly trust, but if you find someone who had a similar experience and overcame it, wouldn't you gladly accept some guidance? I don't think Germany is any worse off in terms of advanced spiritual people than the rest of the western world. They are rare everywhere. You have Eckhart Tolle ;), and surely not only him. Where are you from exactly? I hope your therapist can help you too, although he doesn't know that much about awakening.

Probly not high in Swedish standards. Sweden is much more expensive overall than Cz. So IT people being in high demand by foreign companies has raised the bar to more "western" numbers. I kind of assumed it would be a good job across Europe but maybe not. I wouldn't describe myself as hairy but I sure as hell don't care to impress with my looks at day-to-day work. I go with the lowest acceptable standard (imho) because I don't enjoy the time-investment and process of making myself pretty because of other people. I can understand not wanting to share an office with an unpleasant coworker, but I guess I misunderstand why dating prospect would play a crucial role in deciding your career-path.

Well, that's a start at least! Have you discussed your options with him? Could he refer you to a more intensive program (I assume you're only seeing him for an hour a week or so, which seems very little in your case)? Even if that's not your path, I'm very glad you'll be doing trauma resolution. Hopefully you can work out the spirituality part with him as well. Also, I remember now the Buddhist meditation teacher I met (who didn't suit me as a meditation teacher) was a former therapist. Accidentally, he's also German, though living in Prague now. I'm not saying you should go heavy Buddhist (although if this is an awakening they could as well know a thing or two about it), but my idea is, maybe there's someone in your local meditation center who also has therapeutic experience, or who knows a therapist that also has had an awakening experience. Maybe you could consult that person once or twice at least. Speaking trauma, I've really enjoyed Teal Swan's videos in the last few weeks. I don't know if watching video's is a good idea for you right now or not - generally educating yourself does help some, but not if it tips you over to unmanageable states.

I'm so sorry this is still being hard Have you managed to reach out to anyone? Have found a therapist in Germany? The only other idea I have is to email the Holos centre in Czech Republic (my country). They do holotropic breathwork and help in psychospiritual crises. See if they can have you there for a few weeks. I'm seriously convinced you would really benefit from a full-time therapeutic program, but I remember and respect your decision not to get involved with anyone who would get you medicated. Therapeutic programs can be great. I've benefitted from mine even in a conventional mental health facility. https://holos.cz/en/holos-centre

I got way better over the past two weeks. I can sometimes get peaceful with meditation again. For me, meditation Is when I just get present with the body, and "practical" life-purpose thoughts usually don't come up that much. I attribute my April depression to the antibiotics for the tonsilitis destroying my gut bacteria (in conjunction with the anxiety of having my first conference talk). I never made that connection before, but it was quite obvious this time. Dropped you some material that I'm now looking through in your thread. Well these are the stumbling questions, right? I'm not sure how to answer the "what do you love doing" question. Sometimes it seems like the answer is "nothing". Sometimes I come up with "psychology", or "being present with people". Sometimes it's "physics". I do like the analytical calculations part, and I appreciate the understanding I gained. I think I'm gonna put understanding somewhere high up on my values list. I'm increasingly noticing how the notions I learned both during my formal education and from spiritual teachers influence my world-view, my values and my decision-making. I've also known for a long time that I see beauty in the simplicity of an idea and enjoy their interconnectedness. And, my notion of understanding also crucially involves compassion. I feel this is a real important hint towards the kind of impact I want to have. If understanding can really change people's lives, I want to build bridges. I could be some sort of educator (although a school teacher in any formal institution doesn't feel right), I could do this by writing scientific papers about my work, I could help find a common language between different fields (be it within science between eg. relativity and condensed matter or on the periphery between science and the public)... or in many other ways. Building bridges feels very right to me, although I feel that a creative element is missing. One of the aspects of Leo's work I admire the most is building this bridge between rationality and spirituality. I've benefitted immensely from him doing that, and it's also something I try to do for the people around me when I get the chance - telling my more "rational" friends about do-nothing meditation, denouncing misconceptions about quantum theory with "spiritual" people, and generally providing the opposite point of view to anyone's opinion 'cause I can hold them all ...

I don't know about US (or wherever you are) but over here (Prague) it's possible for IT students to get part-time jobs or work doing projects for themselves, and still live off the money, since the average IT wage is twice the median wage. That's why I suggested it. Damn that's an incredibly hurtful judgement Man, you can date whomever you want, look outside of workplace or do whatever you want, but give the women who've decided to not play the "conforming to the contemporary beauty ideal" game a break.

I'd like to share some resources for inspiration with @Azote @jjer94 @Rajat Bhatia @Black Flag and others following the thread. One ambitious grad student created a program for students who want to find a science-related career outside of academia: http://phdladder.wixsite.com/phdladder They provide a link to a webpage with a similar goal. They have skills, values and interests assessments on the site which are a perfect inspiration. https://myidp.sciencecareers.org/ Finally, I'll just add a TED talk from a teacher for the students The reset button (I don't quite agree with all he sais, in fact I'm surprised how much of my course curricula is needed, at least while I stay in science but he's got a point.)

Most IT people don't have to shave or iron shirts, and some of them even have flexible hours and/or home office. I don't know a way to avoid all responsibility, adaptation, routine work and all the related pain though

@AmalieRuby Oh yeah, actually credit to your interest for being upfront. Before sex happened. It should be the obvious honest thing to do, but sometimes they don't. Wish you best of luck in the future.

There's a saying. "Never treat someone a priority who treats you as an option." Listen to that. He wants to keep contact either (assuming best intentions) to be real friends or to keep options open. Or both. It's ok and it's very human, but you wanted more and you could get easily caught in one-sided romance. So don't give him more more thought than he gives you. If you like the guy and want to have a chat and a drink from time to time, no problem. What I suggest is a break let romantic feelings dwindle down and restart without the mess. 40 days no contact is the recommended timeline. Just tell him you need a few weeks break to get your head clear. Then go 40 days no contact. You can decide to contact him or not afterwards. There's no fire. You don't have to know now. (edit: I see you've only known each other for two months. Maybe you don't need whole 40 days. I'm not sure.)

I guess that's the gist of it. (Or at least one of the necessary ingredients.) It's pretty hard to get to the level of awareness where you can do this consistently though.

This is just my opinion based on just my own experience with no real research, but IMHO it IS extremely hard to get out of depression. Half a year for a modest few centemeters above the ground improvement ... yeah that's a typical timeline. I'm sorry for that. It's not fair. Appreciate yourself for having any improvement at all, a lot of people... just don't. It's like you're starting way below zero (if zero is "where most people are at"). You can't even expect yourself to be able to carry out a lot of self-actualization techniques, or get the gains as fast as other people. Congratulations on meditating and exercising consistently, that's not trivial. I don't think you're doing anything wrong. I think you need to keep at it and next 6 months is another few centimeters and life starts looking bearable. And then ... well likely some day exponential growth will surprise you. (Please google a picture of an exponential right now! :)) You can consider adding some technique specifically designed to work with emotion. Have you got a therapist? Like classical talk or body-centered psychotherapy? They can be an immense support. Keep at it. I'm cheering on you.

Yes, modifying techniques might be dangerous or ineffective. But NOT modifying techniques could also be dangerous or ineffective. Every technique has it's limited range of applicability. It's designed for people with a certain level of awareness and certain (typical) obstacles. But if you're lower than that or have a not-so-typical nervous system or your private set of trauma, just taking on a technique could be dangerous. For example, using the Vipassana-beginner instruction to just watch my breath makes me extremely agitated and anxious really fast. Maybe I'm not distinguishing between concentration and mindfulness properly, or I have an agitated mind, I don't know. Anyway, the do nothing technique works better for me. You have to test techniques for yourself.

@Azote Rather numb and inactive. Depressed thoughts are coming up, but they are quickly covered by tiredness. I suppose it's not a bad thing to feel that way, the travelling has been demanding.