Zenterus

You're killing it, man! Keep going 💪🏾

Here is another VALUE BOMB from your one and only favourite 10 year pickup veteran. In this thread, I want to share with you my insights on proper flirting, some picked up by various mentors of mine, while others are completely original to me. And although this advice is founded in my -- a man's -- experience, I do believe that it is very applicable to women too. However, before we get into the various concepts that encompass this goldmine of a topic, it is crucial that we first dispel some very common myths around conveying interest to someone you're interested in -- aka flirting. Myth #1 INTENT AND DIRECT GAME This one is very prevalent in the PUA community. I've created an old thread about Direct game and its limitations, but to summarize it here: Direct game is ANTITHETICAL to proper flirting and is inherently unoptimal. Hear me out. Emotional arousal between the sexes (or same sexes) is a function of effective tension. Tension is created when there is POTENTIAL for romance and sexual intimacy, without certainty. I'm sure you felt it at some point in your life. Perhaps you had this one co-worker who you had exceptional chemistry with. You picked up on subtle lingering eye contact, minor touching or vague statements that could imply more interest than just the platonic and while you aren't quite sure what it all means, you're still strangely pulled to them and invested into finding out where things might go. Showing "intent" in the traditional sense where you just bluntly express your attraction to somebody completely breaks this dynamic, because you approach with an overt showcasing of your romantic/sexual interest and thus rob the other person of the experience of wonder and mystery that arouses them over time with more exposure. Direct game can work, by the way, its just not the optimal approach. Of course, if you go up to a 100 people and directly convey your intentions to them, at least a couple will reciprocate, but that is a matter of luck than actual skill. What's better is approaching in an indirect or just friendly/curious manner, getting a conversation started from that baseline and then slowly layering in the flirtatious vibe as the interaction progresses. Myth #2 COMPLIMENTS AND VALIDATION Compliments are the normies' lifeline when it comes to flirting, but sadly it is also a very low level form of it for the exact same reasons I described above for direct game. Additional to that, however, is that flirting validates the other person before they ever had the chance to invest in you, thus removing the incentive to invest. If you already know that you have the job and that you're the employer's favourite canditate, would you not make sure you negotiate the better deal for yourself and make sure you get as much out of it as possible? Of course, cause you know you have negotiating power in that context. Compliments create the same dynamic. When you let someone know that you really like them for x, y and z reasons BEFORE they've invested in you significantly, then they have no reason to invest. Human beings will expend energy in the pursuit of something that is valuable -- in other words, difficult or uncertain in its attainment -- rather than something they know they can have, but once they've invested in the pursuit of that asset heavily then they want to see a return on that investment, which makes complimenting from that moment on more sensical. Myth #3 NEGGING This is the insecure pick-up artist's favourite weapon. I know so many guys who once they learn about Negging and Validation Dynamics in terms of Attraction, they abuse them to hell! (Was guilty of this in the past, too.) Their entire strategy becomes: Diss the girl so that she chases my approval all the way to the bedroom. Sorry, bro, this might work once every blue moon on some emotionally damaged girl, but it will never work consistently, ESPECIALLY with the most desirable, and thus most confident, women who would actually bring value into your life rather than destruction. Myth #4 LINES AND ROUTINES This one is an interesting one, because I actually do have lines that I repeatedly use on various women. The reason that I'm putting this as a myth though is because a lot of guys rely on lines and routines for their flirting without having the right energy behind their words. They think that just saying the line and "conveying intent" is enough to check it off their checklist of their 12-steps-of-pickup list and are completely missing the emotional component, which is the foundation of proper flirting. ----------------------------------------------- ADVANCED FLIRTING Now that we've rid your mind of all these negative beliefs and habits that are ruining your flirting, let's talk about the various ingredients that are essential to proper advanced flirting skills. 1. Vibe As I hinted above, the best way to flirt starts with you and your emotional state. You can't just go up to someone and mouth lines and routines or do push and pulls and hope for the best when your vibe is emanating a platonic flat energy. When you're talking to someone you're attracted to, you must first and foremost be super grounded and sensual in your vibe. There should be no shame in yourself as a sexual being, in fact, you should revel in it. Love being sexual, recognize yourself as being sexy and worthy of the person you desire. That is the foundation for everything that comes after. Next, you must adopt a playful attitude. Proper flirting should feel like a game where you're hinting at your attraction and the potential of you two being together in a playful manner that doesnt feel at all serious. This comes as a result of feeling, again, good enough and sexy in your own right. If you have self esteem issues, or you lack a deep identification with your sexuality, then the vibe will be off. Do the work to embody all that is you and develop a love for all parts of you, including your sexuality. Some habits that help with this vibe are: ■ Meditation and Yoga for Groundedness. ■ Limiting masturbation and porn consumption to once a week for Sensuality or even taking salsa/bachata classes. ■ Trying something new in public and having fun being a beginner again and generally just becoming more comfortable with being silly and "imperfect" in public for Playfulness. 2. Body Language Slow the fuck down. Slowing down your speech and overall flow, helps accentuate this seductive vibe. And "seductive" is the right way to put it. Think of a smooth player who speaks in this Morning Radio FM tone, who holds eye contact for a little too long, has a cocky smile that says "I know you want me," who is playfully provocative and whose every move seems deliberate and under intentional control. They never fall out of frame, they never react, they rarely break tension with a nervous chuckle. No. They thrive in tension. They thrive in moments of silence and they enjoy watching you squirm under the pressure that their lingering eye contact creates in those split second moments. This energy is very hard to put into words. James Bond comes to mind and various femme fatale characters in Noir cinema. These characters have a subtle sensuality to them, a slowed pace, a holding-of-tension quality that makes them intriguing and irresistible. Study these characters, understands what makes them so captivating and emulate them. 3. Frame Control Here, we get into the real gold of this subject: What should you say? What I've discovered is that sublety is key. Therefore, instead of directly showing interest, you want to basically ASSUME a romantic/sexual frame and simply playfully call it out in small ways throughout the interaction and escalating from covert to overt as the connection grows. Here are some examples of this: Girl: I'm a Gemini. Guy: Ah fuck. Girl: What?? You don't like Geminis? Guy: My mom always told me to stay away from astrology girls.. Girl: Hahah, really? Guy: Lucky for us though, I like to rebel. Will be bringing a bodyguard to our date though. Girl: Haha, whatever makes you feel safe [Underlying frame: I'm evaluating if we should date or not and I found something about you that is potentially a red flag and thus must tread carefully.] Girl: Where are you from? Guy: Indonesia. Girl: Ooh, never been there before! Guy: Well, now you have a reason to visit [Underlying frame: You like me and thus you would want to cone visit me in Indonesia.] Guy: You into Marvel movies? Girl: Yeah! I LOVE the Dark Knight! Guy: Oh my god.. I'm breaking up with you, I can't believe you just said that. Girl: Whaat? What did I say?? Guy: Batman is DC you goof lol [Underlying frame: We are already together -- playfully -- and you did something to inspire me to want to break up with you.] The above are perfect examples of what I mean. Instead of approaching flirting from the frame of "I like you and I am gonna make it obvious with compliments and such," it is much much better to adopt the following frames of "We're evaluating each other for a potential relationship" or "We're already together" or "You like/are seducing me." Notice that push pulls are still very much present, but there are no direct compliments or validating indicators of interest. This type of indirect flirting, coupled with the vibe and body-language I outlined above, creates a powerful dynamic in the interaction that is the most conducive for building tension and creating real magnetic attraction. Furthermore, there is intentionality in the order in which I presented the frames to you, as you want there to be a sense of progression. Ideally this is what it should look like: A) Negative Evaluation or We're Already Together Frame: "Oh my God, you're trouble, I have to be careful around you." "I'm breaking up with you." B) Push Pull Evaluation: "My mom always told me to stay away from astrology girls.. Lucky for us though, I like to rebel. Will be bringing a bodyguard to our date though." C) You like me Frame "Now you have a reason to visit ;)" D) You're seducing me Frame. "Oh, you actually read comics?! Hmm.. I actually like that, fuck. Stop saying the right things, I'm too busy to have a crush right now." E) Compliments "Damn, you're surpringly very smart/fun/deep. I like that in a girl" Don't take all this dogmatically, of course. You don't have to obsess over progression or how much validation and certainty you're giving off in all this detail. Just having a general understanding of how this works, and why, is enough to set you on the right path. But when you're adopting this model, it is important that you sit down and do your homework to come up with lines that fit the principles outlined here. Do NOT steal my lines, dude (please). If you can't come up with your own, authentic way of flirting while adhering to the framework above then you have deeper problems and you should not be trying to adopt this model but, rather, focus on more beginner-friendly advice. Very interested to hear your thoughts on the above ideas.

Wow, Natasha just unfiltered with it.

Pick-Up is meant to take you on a self expansion and self discovery journey that, in some respects, does force you to step outside of yourself but eventually leads you back to your most powerful REAL self. Most people are the way that they are not because that is who they are, but because their environment has told them that's who they are. If you're a nerd, that is an identity you adopted for survival reasons. Same with being an artist or a naturally attractive Lover-Archetype, or any other identity. And then, as people treat you a certain way, that identity becomes reinforced and crystalizes, leaving you stuck in it, in some cases for life. Now if you happen to grow up in an environment that assigned you a role (through upbringing, environment, friends, socialization, etc) that favours you, then great! But a lot of guys who get into pickup have been dealt a bad hand and game takes them on a journey that challenges their core self-conception until it is molded into a more attractive one, but still authentic. I akin it to the Hero's Journey. You start off being one way and you're called by Pick Up or Game to expand and evolve. You may reject the call to adventure at first because it is scary, but eventually the pain of being who you currently are is so great that it overpowers your fear. And so off you go! You find mentors, learn from them, practise the techniques, have lots of sex, fail a lot more than you succeed, become frustrated, deal with more challenges, have some profound intimate experiences with women, you learn what you like and dont like, etc etc. And eventually through this journey, after expanding yourself and wearing different masks at different points, while shedding aspects of your being that you've identified as limitations, you are molded into something quite amazing. By the end of the Hero's Journey: Your mentors have died, and thus you've developed your own authentic philosophy for how life, love and dating works; You've slayed the dragon, aka burned through your karma of needing sex and outside validation; And finally you return home, back to yourself where it all began, being the same but very much different. This has been my journey. I started off as a nerd and a geek. But I wasnt happy with myself and how I was being treated by others. I took on the challenge to learn game and through it I expanded my being in so many profound ways. And after being a player and indulging in that lifestyle for a bit (10 fuckin years), I am back to where I started, being an introverted nerd, but a much more powerful version of that than I was when I started. Not a shy, weak, antisocial, insecure nerd. But a cool, strong, dominated, decisive, charismatic, sexually confident nerd. So when all is said and done: You're still yourself.

Here is an old post where I fully explain the cons of direct game:

@VioleGrace I appreciate your support btw, brother! I'm glad you're finding value in what I share in this forum

@PsychedelicEagle Brother, I might give you a more in depth explanation later because right now I have somewhere to be. What I will say, is that the advice I just gave, I mostly apply to daygame. I approach, most of the time, indirectly during the day. It works just the same. Plus, the beauty of this approach is that it is versatile. You might meet a super cool girl who has a boyfriend but who you'd love to be friends with -- and who could introduce you to other amazing people -- but you've burned that bridge the moment you went direct. If you try to switch, she'll think that you're just trying to weasel your way into her pants. Indirect allows you to figure out what you're dealing with before deciding on a course of action. I'll make future posts about how to navigate this approach beyond the opener, but don't forget that you're still flirting, it's just not off the open. So you'll find out if she has a boyfriend anyway, because the girl can sense the vibe you're putting out, but isn't fully certain if her assumption is correct which allows you the versatility to switch paths if you want, or even targets if you're talking to multiple attractive women. There are so many advanced benefits to this, honestly.

You're welcome. It's truly a joy being a part of this community

@Alexop Looking for a genuine connection these days for long term.

@Valach Not low value per se, but based on my understanding of female psychology, social and power dynamics, I would characterize that as not as good a game as it could be.

@Valach It would depend on how he goes direct. If he's approaching with generic compliments, with no personality and no authentic charm then I would view him as low value. And, by the way, that's what most people do when they go direct. "Hey, excuse me, I know this is weird but I saw you from other there and blah blah blah" Basically self qualifying why they're approaching her. I still go direct from time to time, by the way. As I said, it does work and sometimes it just feels right in the moment. But a) I'm more creative with it and b) I accept that it'll lead to more initial rejections with girls who might've been down had I taken a better approach. I think high value comes in a lot of forms. Good game and high value aren't always aligned. But if you were truly high value, and super confident, you wouldn't just approach direct. You would be having more fun with it and being more creative and playful in your approaches because you know you have value and you're complete, so everything you do is just play at that point.

Ok, before I respond to anything, I apologize if my tone was a bit harsh in my latest replies. I was responding hastily because I was in the middle of working on something and I didn't have time to really think and formulate my ideas in a more constructive way. @Valach This is the funny thing, actually. The more I develop myself and get rid of my inner insecurity and performative aspects, the more I become aligned with this style of game. It might seem to you that I'm optimizing for the sake of attracting the most women, but the reality is that I came to these conclusions after a lot of contemplation and self inquiry. After a crazy volume of experiences with women, I reached a point where I truly didn't feel aligned with approaching a girl and just stating my intentions directly because THAT started to feel performative. I've had insane abundance with women in my life, and I've realized that unless I actually truly feel connected to the girl, I don't really desire her. I actually do care about who she is and as I develop my social circle, financial abundance and status in my life, holistically, it doesn't make sense for me to approach these women directly. They haven't earned it from me and I don't genuinely feel it. Plus, again, high value men don't approach like that, man, they just don't. If you're on your purpose and you're doing awesome shit and you have your tribe and sexual abundance, etc etc, why would you go direct on a girl who you don't even know. Also, this type of approach is antithetical to the girl's experiences when meeting high value guys. If a girl meets a super cool dude in her social circle, she just feels a magnetism towards him and is nervous and excited by the potential she might have with that guy, but she isn't certain if she can have him. I'm basically creating the same narrative and dynamic that a girl typically experiences in her social circle in a cold approach. That's optimal game, @PsychedelicEagle. But as I said, this is advanced advice, it's not for beginners! The reason that I can pull this off very well is because my subcommunications are DIALED IN. I don't need to tell a girl directly that I like her for her to perceive me as a sexual prospect. Attraction is not a choice. If you're THAT GUY, she's gonna feel attracted to you regardless.

@Valach I repeat for the 5th time: Direct works, its just not optimal.

@PsychedelicEagle I'm not being disrespectful towards you, dude, but you're wrong. Again, direct game works! I said that in the post too, but it's inoptimal. If you want more consistent results, you have to go in indirect and build the vibe, screen each other and escalate from there. You could be an awesome dude if a girl were to get to know you a bit, but if when you approachbher she just waves you off because you went direct and she was forced to make a decision, then it doesnt matter how amazing you might be. If going direct works for you, then wonderful man, keep doing it. But if your goal is to take your game to the next level, you're gonna have to adopt a higher paradigm.

@PsychedelicEagle No. Direct game is inoptimal. You're coming from the perspective that a woman doesn't care about anything else other than your first impression, which is false. Going direct forces the woman to make a decision about you with incomplete information. Women can get attracted to you for all sorts of reasons beyond just the physical. If you're funny, charismatic, witty, smart, successful, strong, have good eye contact, good tonality, have shared interests and values, have an interesting personality or the experience of you is captivating etc etc These are traits that are not immediately apparent from the get go, they need time in conversation to be revealed. Plus, don't you have any standards dude? Dont you care what type of girl this is? What kind of high value dude runs around giving away free compliments and going super direct with women? A desperate guy with no standards or abundance. High value men are selective. Just because a girl is hot doesnt mean that she is good enough to fuck with you. You need to get to know each other a bit. Again, going direct can work, but it is inefficient and will only work up to a point. If you're ugly or not traditionally attractive, it wont work at all. Im talking from a very extensive experience base, dude. I've tried everything. I have 10 years of trial and error in this shit. I know what I'm talking about. You're wrong. Learn proper game.

@Raze I responded about his ex. Check my previous replies.

Im not in south africa. I'm also done arguing with you on this. Getting make outs with girls is not the same as actually being good at pickup. You can make out with a girl all you want, but that doesnt mean she wants to see you again. But anyway dude, believe what you want to believe. Jeffy and Luke know Owen personally and are straight up telling you what it is. But sure, an online fanboy knows him better than they do.

@Raze Brother, Jeffy literally says in the video "..Because I have a high degree of emotional sensitivity from years of cultivating that. But Owen, he doesn't have that, so what does he do..?" And then he reveals Owen's approach. He said its okay for Owen to do that because he is travelling so it doesnt bite him as much in the ass like how it would for his students. He is not saying that this is Owen's approach BECAUSE he is traveling. I'm literally showing you a seminar clip where his CLOSE ASSOCIATES AND FRIENDS are straight up telling you that he is really bad and, in fact, worse than everyone in the room and you're unable to hear it. Also Owen's playmate girlfriend was introduced to him by Michael Sartain, and they stayed together for a bit before she dumped him, probably cause of his emotion issues. Furthermore, you don't know anything about me dude lol You don't know where I game, what my circumstances are and how competitive the world around me is. I understand that you're a fan of Owen and so am I. But he is not the hero you think he is, although he is admirable for finding ways to work with his limitations. And again, Owen does get results, clearly. So of course he'll have infield footage of him succeeding. Keep in mind too that RSD was doing infield bootcamps every weekend for years and filning infield for years, so of course you'll get some gold out of that after years and years of filming yourself going out.. I could have filmed infield back when I was a beginner and got a result once every couple a months and try to market it as me being a pickup god.

@Raze He is saying that Owen lacks the social sensitivity to calibrate in real time and thus HAS to rely on crazy polarizing approaches to get results and, as a consequence, approaches a SHIT TON just to get 1 girl. How does that make him an authority? If I can get better results than Owen with waaayy less effort and I can explain the social dynamics and calibration aspects to you better than he can because Im actually able to read social cues, wouldn't that make me more of an authority than Owen? He's definitely an authority for people on the spectrum, but neurotypical people shouldn't be taking bootcamps with him. Granted, he does teach social dynamics on a grand scale. I learned a lot about framing and using social circles in a way to accentuate my cold approaching results. But again, his infield capabilities are literally worse than the students in the seminar room who came to learn from his coaches. I edited the post, please read what I added to it.

Edited the post for more context

@Raze I used to have access to the full clip of the seminar. It is not out of context.

@Olaf Here is where you have to be creative. Think to yourself: How would a guy, who has no agenda and is just living his awesome life, approach a stranger? It'll probably be from a frame of curiosity, or observation or even just sharing something out of spontaneity. An example of this: The other day I saw a girl standing on the sidewalk, pacing back and forth and looking at her phone annoyed. She looked like she was waiting for someone who was ridiculously late. So, I approached her with, "Haha, you look like you're waiting for that one friend who is always late to shit." She chuckles and agrees and I follow it up with "Let me guess, they're always late and this time you came late yourself hoping that you wont have to wait for them again and somehow they STILL managed to be even later than you, huh?" And she laughed even more and we entered a brief chat after that. Another time, I approached a racially ambiguous girl with "Excuse me, you're so confusing to look at.. You're a weird mix of Japanese princess vibes but also exotic island girl. Where you from?" Very positive response and we ended up chatting for a bit and even kissed at the end of the interaction. I hope these examples illustrate what it should look like. Its not FULL indirect where I'm asking for directions, but it also isn't direct where I'm clearly approaching her cause I think she's hot. @aurum Lovely addition to the topic! I do similar things like this too. The other day, I was vibing with this gorgeous Spanish woman and I made a joke about her potentially being toxic and she was like "What? What gives you that impression?" And I responded with "Oh, nothing. I always am wary around pretty women, though, it aint personal. In my experience they're either completely out of their minds or they're the coolest people ever. But I try to err on the side of caution, just in case." But this is one of those things that happen naturally when you're okay with your sexuality.

Social Circle is amazing when coupled with cold approaching. However, as Leo said, it is a bit overwhelming for introverts, such as myself. That being said, there are levels to social circle. You dont have to build a massive "high value social circle" to reap the benefits of it. If you can join communities (or build your own) that put you into contact with like minded people in a regular basis where attraction can develop naturally over time then you'll have a decent pool of potential new dating opportunities. Joining a dance class, for example; taking up a sport; joining a weekly meetup event; making your own bi-weekly or monthly event, etc. These are very good to do, especially taking classes for something you're genuinely interested in because you're hitting 2 birds with 1 stone. That's what I do. I rely primarily on online dating these days though because I'm focused on my purpose and developing myself as a man, coupled with a few cold approaches here and there and going to salsa/bachata events as well as other meetup groups (will soon start my own) and I have no shortage of options. All of this assumes though that you're an attractive man and that you have done the work to gain passive attraction, otherwise you'll just end up friendzoned.

Damn man, why you gotta do me like that. Thought we were homies.

@VioleGrace As I've explained in the post: Do your homework. Understand the progression as I outlined. Understand why it works. Think about it yourself and then come up with lines that fit the framework. You don't have to be perfect. Just understand that the basic idea is: 1. No compliments 2. Find creative ways to address the man to woman frame 3. Make sure there is a progression from negative framing ("I'm breaking up with you") to evaluation framing ("I have to be careful with you but I'm intrigued ") to she wants you framing ("i like the way you look at me") and, finally, just compliments. 4. Go out and start putting it into action while remembering the vibe and body-language aspects as well. A good first step though is getting comfortable approaching indirectly/socially rather than direct.