Jordan of the Shire

Yea that is an unfortunate consequence of the lack of epistemological and egoic development. Reinterpretation of mystical states through the lens of conditioning. I can see how epistemology is an antidote for this. This is interesting because I see high spiritual intelligence as a potential block to spiritual experiences. What do you think on that topic? @Leo Gura @Davino This is a particular thing I find keeps me from exploring deeper on the intellectual plane. But a good metric is if it leads to insight and truth. Okay, yea, I do feel like some of the work I've done with spiral dynamics theory, and early philosophical inquiry has helped me not fall into some traps. Such as the above mentioned. Also, I was thinking on a walk just now that, some of my mentors had really sophisticated epistemological processes, which may have been passed onto me without me having to do the cognitive heavy lifting of creating those roads, which could skew my view of the importance of epistemology ... And Leo, I checked you out probably 7 years ago. Your videos laid some foundation for my thinking. Ken Wilber yea ... (represent 8 hour world of warcraft sessions while listening to actualized.org videos) I chuckle now a days laughing at all the times @Leo Gura would say, this is not something to listen to while playing video games. I think the skill point analogy is great. I see what you're saying. Yea ... there is ... Yea - this does inform some next steps for me. I think to me it is more about understanding how to work around the complexities of the world and people in a skillful way - in the different roles i serve in. Discernment is really valuable. Okay - yea I get that. I don't have that same drive so it's a bit foreign to me, and perhaps i then create biases for my particular style and get caught up in not quite seeing clearly the distinctions and values between. Interesting.

@Leo Gura @Davino Couldn't you achieve high levels of awakening, jhanas, deep metaphysical territory without complex epistemological investigation? It seems like I can still experience life, bliss, peace, without needing to go into things on an epistemic level. And it's not that I'm ignorant, but that I'm training a specific skill. How valuable is epistemic wisdom if you don't really need it? I don't think it's necessary to sort through all the different forms of duality and relativity. I find that through the practice, I get to know the things in my experience. What I'm finding is that certain things are less interesting. LIke getting lost in videos, or entertainment. Finding it more entertaining to absorb into the perceive functions that are happening in body and mind, releasing. Or other people, or the environment. This seems to be a profound practice in itself. I think it is useful to investigate the truth of things, but mentally it seems like a bit of a masturbatory exercise, correct me if I'm wrong. And i'll follow that up with, what is the line between masturbatory epistemology and true epistemology. Also, depending on your role in the world, I think deep epistemology is helpful to know. I would say then, that this can depend on what actions you want to take, what role you want to play, and how you want to affect the world. I'm also not solid in my views, they are subject to change, but interested to see how people respond to this.

😂 That is really funny

Start out to have integrity, fail, reflect, learn Start out to have integrity, succeed, reflect, enjoy To have integrity, can choose something to be integral with.

Thanks for this description

Wutz so funny???

There is another teaching around the pāramīs. These are the perfections that build merit. Merit supports both life circumstances and the capacity for transcendence. The state of a life is not only luck or personality; previous and present wholesome action is a condition. You improve a pāramī by knowing what it is and applying it at a level you yourself choose. Take generosity. A simple training is giving to someone who asks on the street. Don’t judge what they will do with it. Don’t dictate. If you walk away and see it go to drink, don’t let spite arise. Don’t tell anyone. Don’t compare arms or stories or who “should be working.” Give for the sake of giving. A workable householder measure is: of ten, one goes out. Then joy may arise. Let it arise. Know it with awareness. Do not land on “I am a good person.” Awareness knows joy. Awareness is not the joy. This can be practiced as a lokuttara dhamma—beyond the worldly eye—without waiting to be a saint. It is easier to see the separation of awareness and mind when the body is not contracted. The pāramī is built by releasing the inner no, by not identifying with the meritorious act, and by actually giving. That field is responded to in ways the worldly eye does not track. It also makes loving-kindness less theoretical. The other pāramīs work the same way: virtue, patience, energy, truthfulness, and the rest. You pick one. You set the level. No one assigns it as a moral badge. As it builds, life is still life, but it stops feeling like a permanent uphill argument with the world. (I wrote the initial draft but used AI to clean up my wording a bit, and to make this easier to read. So it's not my tone per say, but it is legible and gives a gist which could serve as a good place to start.)

Yea totally. Keep going is the goat advice. Keep going (I realize that might sound sarcastic, it's not!)

I get this, it's hard. Every morning I wake up and have to *reload*. The upbringing conditioning is so engrained. The physiological and the mental have so many forms that aren't conducive to peace. So it takes practice to come to peace. But it can be done. And it doesn't seem to be a one and done kinda thing. More of a, ah i'm at peace this moment, I got there. Then there's the next thing that comes up. Such is life.

It's a good answer. This contemplation lets me understand what nobody can tell me, so that's good too. Because if someone tells me what desire is, I might be content to believe them. Then it's not wisdom. It's belief. To quote sahdguru, "hello? isn't it?" haha

What is the goal of time spent on the forum? Who's currently active, what do they want from the forum, what is the main consideration in their life, what challenges are they dealing with, what would they like to change, how do they see it changing. What practical methods through the content here are they applying already? What comes up as cringe in the forum, what structures, qualities, come off as needing refinement? Getting feedback from the users will help structure the forum with more direction, and provide a baseline for growth over time. I think an important thing here is to be honest where people are spiritually. We are not all enlightened to the highest degree, creating peanut butter and jam sandwiches out of thin air, and farting out bliss (debatably) I think neo-advaita is similar to , experience everything as god now, today , here is the conceptual truth, now - force the thought into actuality. To genuinely experience this ... I think people ought to be honest about the boundaries of their actual perception and state of mind with their selves. And I also think the standard may be too high. The concepts here are like top level when a newby ought to start with ... can i feel my feet. How clear is the perception of my own body, let alone, the whole dang universe. If the forum, or this work is about helping people actualize, then I think there is a process for this, and a shotgun approach, hoping for the best can be improved. I think a little stage yellow organization and systemization here could help. Perhaps an anonymous form, or a thread with a deliberate and curated form for review could help. An important caveat is that the feedback should be received non-judgementally, and discussion should be civil, and I think discussion on the actual feedback should take place between moderators based on their interpretation of the information, rather than an in forum debate. This process could take a couple weeks.

@Natasha Tori Maru Hey, just want you to know, I hear what you're saying. I think it's awesome how you went from being a intellectual circuit board to a 8 cylinder engine ... in other words , capable of feeling and intuiting the kind of internal blocks that were not being resolved by purely intellectual work. I think it's amazing that you got to experience the mare change from seeing you as a warning, to seeing you as a pleasant surprise - and the journey you went through to get there. Seeing the tensions, the emotions, the fears, and learning how to express them openly is such a beautiful thing. Thanks for sharing ❤️

@Natasha Tori Maru What was your equine therapy experience like? What about your connection to horses + dogs is unusual?

Yea they are majestic I can see why equine therapy works. Cool that you have a unique connection to them. I'm sure that feels really nice.

Hey brother, This is an epistemological forum. Understanding why you have thoughts and perceptions like that is as, if not more important, than having a thought or perception. The underlying machinations of our internal psychology and the development of oneself to its most actualized potential seems to be the point of the forum. Actualized.org right? So ... yes, I am sincere. Why do you think the way you do ... and perhaps more importantly. What makes your thoughts so important? Having conceptual ideas is great, but the real juice in behind them. It actually doesn't matter what we think, because it's not actually reality. Are you perceiving reality, or painting a picture over it. This an issue with thought. One step further. The perceptual gates, sight, taste, hearing, sight, smelling, touching, act to receive stimuli. It goes through a perceptual filter, drawn from our conditioning, which then becomes deluded. The awareness is separate from these perceptual gates and it is one of the reasons that agency, autonomy, and liberation is possible. So I'd be careful about giving away your power to someone else. Because with training, your assumptions drawn may be realigned through the actualization of deeper qualities. Careful about disseminating the world through spirals. What happens is you will experience an observation, and then thought will sprout, and it will spin, and then you have a worldview. Eeek. You've gone too far. Stop where the thought begins, continue to observe. Clearly. Clarity will arise when you're at peace. hehehe

interesting how you respond to this post. Rather than consider the forest, you look at what seems essential, a moral objection, and tackle it from this perspective, which seems like efficient angle to progress this talk.

I know some elder woman and being around them is lovely, their energy is unique. It is something that younger women may not be able to replicate. What makes you think that?

I worked at a horse breeding barn when I was 16 doing some framing. First time I saw two mustangs go at it, I was in awe. Core memory

There are practical embodiment practices for this, and you don't need to live in a monastery or renunciate worldly life to experience this. I think there's a sort of romanticizing of the monk. Monk life is easier for the practice because you don't have worldly responsibilities, you're whole life is practice. But the practice of seeing through the illusion can be done whether you're sitting in a cave in tibet or talking to your mother. Enlightenment has different meanings to different people. To me there are stages to it. When we are talking about these things I'm also holding space for the validity of multiple perspectives. I hear you about not wanting to re-attach yourself to strivings to be desire-less, and to play Clark Kent. What I'm saying has less to do with being desire-less and being able to choose to go with or not with your desire. I'm more referring to self-control. Because I think there is an excess too in denying humanity, as with going with our desires. It's like what are we here to do? This is a beautiful experience. We can penetrate the veil and see the not-self nature of things ... but then what ... well it's all love then. But that's not for sure either. We have humanity that fluxuates. And this can make experience better or worse. The philosophy I like is that full enlightenment is not just realizing that we have a view of things as being god and we are avatars of this experience, therefore anything goes and we can act anyway we choose because nothing matters. I think this is a form of spiritual bypassing. The philosophy (and lets get to the bones - the practice I like) is choosing what to focus on and empower, such that it nourishes my tissues, brings radiance to the awareness, and benefits the people around me. I'll have to watch the relativism series by Leo again because he goes into great depth about the traps and layers of understanding. Pretty cool stuff anyways. I'm laughing at myself for starting my response like this ... so robotic hahaha I perceive there may be a claim here that implies I am "a non-monk claims to be wanting to transcend the Earthly embodiment." Just to make it clear , this is an embodiment experience for me with transcendence in mind - but, this is also a playful experience on the basis that I think everyone is a little bit crazy and that nobody really knows whats going on ... and that people have kind of got a lot of woo woo fairy like notions, and most people, seem to think they're correct ... which is fine, I'm holding space for those too, because who knows ... but my feeling is that, there's a lot of fluff, conceptualization, and nonsense in the world. So I'm fulfilling my own journey through meditative practices and embodiment practices. What is revealed to me through grounded experiences, and investigation is kind of how I'm going about life. While this experience has a relativistic truth to it, I don't think it is such that we as humans would be wise to treat it like an anything goes experience. But under certain perspectives, such as Bashar like interpretations, or Alan Watts, or Anadamayi Ma, Good or evil (of course there is dualistic notion and absolute notion where nothing is good or evil) are just god playing a game. While this is the case ... I don't understand why some people are oblivious and some people are more aware. People like Jesus, Buddha, and other saints and mystics (which I suppose you could say, (playfully) the jedi, because I know there's the other kind of Mystic that is more about hate, dominance, and control, with the goal in mind to align with darker spiritual forces) advocate for cleaning up the character. I think abandoning this effort because everything is relativistic and we are living the life of an avatar, and this experience is one to enjoy, is a fair counter, but I think, kind of like in that thread where the dude was like "I want to try hard drugs because it feels like this is part of my karma". Many people responded - that's not so wise ... why was that? If there is the mystic that teaches love, transcendence, peace, and the mystic that fulfills their desires for dominance and control. If both of these are god playing a game. Which one do you want to be? I think I want to be the one which causes less suffering. But then why am I this way? What brought my nature towards this tendency? My point is that we have choice. And therefore our actions matter. I have heard through my teachers, who studied with an Arhat, that even at the level of a buddha, there are still truths unknown, further things to know. Which is to say, that even with an 'enlightenment' experience, or a psychedelic exploration, there is still things unknown. And who is to say that our experiences, whether through psychedelics or through wisdom teachers, are not just what we need to hear rather than the truth of it all. Who's to say that these dimensional beings or experiences with channellers, or transcendental perceptions are the truth holders, and not being corralled by higher forces? This may not be the case, but who's to say that's not part of the bigger picture? But that being said - I feel yah! There is a level of asceticism and rejection of life that doesn't feel so necessary.

I hear yah All for that I'm kinda just playing around and doing what I think is fun as well. But also - I reserve skepticism for defining and having total faith in the ultimate truth or nature of things ... until I experience it for myself.

I think statement 1 invites the conclusion that people who don't live a monastic level of detachment can't go against their desires and have agency for how they act. I would go against this idea and say people can, they can, and they don't need to live in a monastery. They can have a family, and live in the world. Many cultivators I know do. 1 foot in and 1 foot out as they say. Statement 2 I see this as another way of defining spiritual bypassing. I think this is common for all people. But I don't think we are repressing our humanity by choosing to go against our desires. I think it is kind of an idol or conformity to think our desires are ultimate.

It seems like you're pointing at the challenge of a house holders lifestyle and how that lifestyle is incompatible with some of the results of monkhood. But even lay people can practice to transform themselves it is possible to lessen the power of the things that we need by observing the causes. It is the hardest thing but it can be done. The most common thing is to go with our desires.

People gotta deal with what they got. A monk is going to have aspirations that an average worldly person might not have, and the capacity for transformation will be different. So if someone has a need which they don't have the capacity to alchemize or transmute, than they may just live with it. For people working on their character. They may have a need which they need to accept, but it doesn't have to rule them, and can be met with consciousness. Then transformation can happen.

My point of view is that it depends on your level of awareness and empathy. If you have a low awareness and low empathy of how actions affect other people or outcomes, then it might be easy to have multiple partners because then it could be easier to disregard the negative impacts and reject personal accountability. The same is true if you had high awareness and low empathy. If you have high awareness and high empathy of how actions affect other people or outcomes, then it might be easier to have multiple partners because you would have the wear with all to create an enjoyable experience for yourself, and might even be able to manage everyone expectations. It could also be true that if you have high awareness and high empathy, you might see that it is not within your capability to manage that type of situation so you would choose to save yourself and other people the trouble.

Hey brother, Try flexing your fist, hold it for 30 seconds or a minute, hold it hard, as hard as you can, then release, notice the fist doesn't open completely, but it feels a little bit better. There's more to say, but that's a good place to start.