theleelajoker

And this is so true! I think I neglected that teasing thing a bit recently but it's a great general guideline. Sometimes they play too much with being vulnerable and then I softened up, especially in relationships. But sometimes it's a trap recently I was playfighting with a girl in bed then she screamed "stop it hurts", I stopped but she was faking it and took the chance to get a better position 🤣 So symbolic for some real life stuff. Just got to know when it really hurts and they really need a hug

When I said that stuff, and the next hours, I was high on mushrooms. It might have been a bit voyeuristic, but I was in state where most of time I was just watching them and enjoying their beauty without the intention to do anything other then watching and being there. With beauty I mean also how they moved, how they danced, talked, how their moods shifted, how they became tired, cold, annoyed by others etc. And they seemed to enjoy that, a) they were looking for my proximity and b) sometimes I felt like they did a little show for me. Dancing in a sexy way right in front of me or one time they started to playfully feed eat other like a lesbian couple would do for foreplay... quite the weekend

Yeah well said. And it's easy to fall into this trap - if you somehow grew up in am environment where you came to the conclusion that the "mistake" lies with you, then this POV is just on (unconscious) autopilot for other experience. Bold above marked by me: That's really crucial and often forgotten when people give advice / or look for solutions themselves. And it's a broad range of experiences where this applies. E.g., I have a friend who desperately wants to get better with women, and he admits he's going nowhere despite doing all the pick up stuff, having a coach etc. And for him IMO it's also the case that the tool "just do pick up stuff" is the wrong approach, and the physiological component you mention cannot be bypassed by that method. But hey that's not selling as good as the idea (illusion) of having lot's of great sex with hot women by simply talking to them

Can't speak for others, but I can say with 100% that's my body awareness increased permanently and a lot. The aware/ unaware experience is a spectrum and a lot of previously unconscious stuff enters my awareness. For instance relaxing my jaw I can feel that my heel reduces tension (everything is connected in the body). Or yesterday I did thai chi and I felt super subtle muscles and bowl movements while exercising. Funny stuff Question for people with similar experiences: the more I get aware of subtle stuff in my own body, the more aware I get of subtle stuff in external reality: feelings, words, intentions movements of others etc. Same experience for you? It's crazy how unaware I was before, how unaware others are if their body. Sometimes I see people clenching their teeth in every day life without noticing it, or I have a hand on their shoulder and feel the tensions there, or I hear then grinding their teeth at night and next day they don't know/ don't feel anything about it. I bet if people could feel their body more they would change their life immediately but as long as it's not aware they just create and maintain tensions

@Natasha Tori Maru I think I get what you're saying, and I agree. There are ways to change things, to reset the nervous system, to get more in the driver's seat, to create habits, to create agency etc. But also, sometimes it seemed to me that no matter what I did to facilitate this process, I was going nowhere. That's why I appreciate that you point out the chemical part. Simple story, in the past I was in a depressive, passive, hopeless mood for quite a while. Set my intention to get out of it. Did a lot of the thing in the book you might recommend someone in my position: I did sports, yoga, gym, swimming 5-6 times a week. Stopped drinking alcohol, coffee, no more meat. Stopped any other drugs. Had a healthy sleep routine. Took long walk. Singing. Met friends and was going out. Went to a psychologist. Took time alone to meditate. Took time to just be there and be with my feelings. And it all just felt like a drop in the ocean. I had little moments that felt ok, but they passed fast and overall nothing really changed. Really sucked, and knowing that I do as much as I can and nothing changes is of course even more depressing. At some point, I told myself "ok there's not much left trying...but maybe psycedelics help. Certainly can't get worse". Thought about doing LSD, ended up doing mushrooms. Next day after doing them, I felt "normal" for the first time since ages. The days after slowly everything got lighter, and easier and more effortless. It was like loosing a 50kg backpack, but the backpack was in my mind. It doesn't solve it all, I still need to do the "real stuff" but now those activities suddenly had an impact! So for me that was where became more conscious of the chemical brain part, and how to influence it. Experimenting now with micros dosing, and regularly tripping as I know understand what impact it can have. Not saying that this is the situation and path for everyone - but that it really can be a lot less about actions, personality and mindset and a lot more about chemical imbalances, nervous system state etc. Some people can't see that because it's not the case for them, or forget that - funnily, me too - but it's a good option to check for that variable as well. And you are one of the few that explicitly mentions that so I felt like sharing my experience, maybe helpful for others. If that resonates for someone PAT might be worth a look (Psychedelic-assisted therapy)

Yeah Vipassana - or better, the effects during and after - is something I could talk about for days non-stop. It's just so intense and different for me then anything else (except psycedelics). At times, it was super super trippy, super nice and super challenging and mind-breaking. Can't really take credit for doing it. It's like you said, can't choose your desires. And also, I had long breaks not doing it. So maybe can't choose your resistance and fears, too? What's interesting is that this "beyond mind" effect only happened like that first retreat 6 years ago. Never again reached that exact state, for whatever reason. I experienced other stuff, but never that again.

Send me some chocolate 🍫

@Sugarcoat This guy is so good at expressing things

No way, also sister? Is she older as well? Damn this clone lab they never come up with new stuff. Had similar conversation with @Joshe recently, how sister helps to be around / interact with women. If guess are somehow comfortable doing pick up, then it can help yes. If it's no fun, costs energy and you have a "must do this to learn how to get laid" mindset, then I would go another route. Just platonically spending time with women where it's clear that you don't have intention to get involved. Have female companies and friends w/o wanting to have sex with them (yes, it's possible). One time I was at a festival, and I got two attractive women as neighbors. One was soooo my type and she gave some signals that I might her type too. But I had a new GF, I was in love with her and no interest in others. So I told them " to avoid misunderstandings: ok you're attractive women, but I have a new GF, I'm in love with her and I see all women as sisters here. I think you're cool if you want let's hangout this weekend and I can be your wingman too if you're looking for boys" So I spent the next days with them, without the sexual tensions every communication was so relaxed. Talking , chilling, dancing together. And being around them I obviously learned a lot about women. Hm I'm single again maybe I write the one I liked? OMG she had some of the sexiest legs I have ever seen...

They we're not happy with the result they got, so they kicked me out of the clone lab. Told themselves they need to make a new, better version. They didn't think I could do any harm in the real world, but now I'm walking around freely and pretend to be human, writing messaged in a forum to confuse people. Hope they did a better job with your version. Got the serial number 863928 tattooed on my back so seems that the architects are doing shitty jobs for quite a while. Mirror principle 🪞 First it's "it's you". Then it's "ok it's a little bit of me, and mostly you". After that it's a "alright, I admit it's 50:50". Then the image becomes more clear, and it's "ok it's mostly me and a bit of you". Then there are first moments of Uuups...Ehm..can I have a new mirror please? Hmm...ok, another mirror please? Please? Ah damn maybe if a polish the surface...hmmm ok. Different polish? Nope... alright, I take responsibility Checklist have limited use. Agree on the draining or strengthening part. But it's tricky as our behavior continuously influences the outcome. For instance, what would have happened in the last relationship that was draining for me if I had managed to stay calm all the time? But then, if I could have stayed calm at this point of my life she never would have entered my life right? Karma gets you one way or another hehe Damn, you know what solves our problem? There must be a female clone version of us as well, right? Hopefully a Latina modell I always had a weakness for that series...

Exactly my point. Maybe it does not need to be like "real work first before you can have fun". But I can see I am wasting my time here

IME: Socializing with all kinds of people helps, it opens you up for social interaction and then you're not so much pressured (by yourself) doing it with the particular women you set your sights on. Sometimes yes, but IME also just be around and interact with ANY people and also see how others interact. The problem I see with the "talk to a lot of women" is that guys "tighten" their view on "got to talk to this woman", create pressure and miss out on the infinite possibilities left and right. Last night I got to know two interesting women because I randomly talked to a guy that knew a guy that knew the two women PS: Scooter are the devil's vehicle. Almost killed myself in an accident some years ago

Funny that you mention exactly that stuff with attention focus and feet. During my first Vipassana, maybe after a week or so I had phases where I stopped doing the imagining, visualization you mention. The technique is moving attention though your complete body. So I started out with "ok attention on shoulder right, arm right, right thumb, now left hand etc etc." And after a certain period I just moved the attention without imagining or thinking of my feet, legs etc. I clearly remember this flow state, the mind part that identified "shoulder, arm etc " was simply gone, it's turned to just "moving attention" - "here" and "there". It was funny because sitting cross legged the attention shifting is a flow like a figure of 8, so not identifying my "left leg" or "right leg" felt a bit confusing as they kid of overlapped in this position Interesting state, there was still mind noticing that 'OK wow I don't think in body parts anymore", but there was no mind identifying the body parts. Sounds strange? Yes it does it's hard to explain without experiencing it

@PurpleTree IMO @UnbornTaohas some valid points. I thought about the same regarding my experiences (health / nervous system check). I see at as different hmm...let's call it layers of physical reality that can be seen distinct, but also together and integrated. So what I mean by that: In deep meditation, or on psycedelics, I can access bodily sensations that are normally beyond my threshold of perception. So for instance, at the end of my last two Vipassana retreats, I perceived vibrations inside my body. Or when focusing on the chest, now months later, there is a feeling beyond flesh, skin, bones and muscle. Equally, when high (weed or mushrooms e.g.) I can feel something that is beyond muscle tension, beyond "normal physical sensation as I knew them before Vipassana, let's call it energy. BUT: even if it's energy, or vibrating matter my body is made of - it's still muscles, and flesh and nerves, and skin and cells, and whole nervous system that operates my organism. It's just that the "vibrating matter/ energy perception" increasingly becomes conscious, so that the two layers became more interconnected. So there's maybe something I can do on the surface level - treat it like I would have treated it 10 years ago before I got into psycedelics, meditation, spirituality etc. I would have gone to the doctor and asked "can you please check"? Who knows what helpful stuff comes out of that? Same time, knowing that there's a deeper layer, I experiment with meditation, attention, psychedelics to see what I can do there. It's not about one or the other for me but about integration and combination. So I think there's value in not seeing everything through spiritual POV only, and trying to fit it all in one perspective. And this is how I understand the message of @UnbornTao

@ExploringReality Wow man, that's a lot of "must". A lot of "work". A lot of "grind" etc. Lots of things of "need to have". Lots of "must know" Not a single word of "fun", "lightness", "joy". Important: I am not saying it's all roses and flowers. I had my hard times, and they will likely come back, and it will feel like a grind again. So please get me right here...but hey, at least some balance is nice, right? What happens if you drop all the "must", "need to", all the "grinds"? Maybe these things are not necessary as before, or much much less? And Alan Watts...love this guy, but he's not about hard work. IME he's about lightness, fun, play, getting out of your own way. And Leo...so a guy building a business, and a life purpose about hard work and grind and intellect and understanding etc makes a point that this is what it is about...so yeah, not a surprise. I guess it's a bit self-fulfilling prophecy, life is to a certain degree what you project it to be. I guess it's individual. Have seen what you described (setting back), have experiences the exact opposite (stabilizing me tremendously). What teacher is saying that? What is his life story? His values? His fears? Are his views just his projection towards life, so that he feel better himself? How well do I know him PERSONALLY and not just a video or stories? What makes me trust his authority? What things I have in common with him, what is different? What are his motives saying this? What part of me is reflected in this teacher? Are this views giving false security about reality, or is there direct experience of me supporting this? Did my direct experience change in similar situations? What makes me think, that it can be generalized at all? What other assumptions do I make? How much does my believe influence my actions and consequences (placebo effect e.g.)? I guess it's more "listen to yourself right now" instead of coming up with generalized rules. Admittedly, I also do that sometimes (for instance recently I asked in this forum re mushrooms and time between trips), and it helps to have somewhat of a map with these things. But as best as I can, these concepts are one part of my decision making process, the other part is listening inside.

Typically those shops sell derivatives. So minimally altered stuff re molecules. After while, there is a new "research chemical" (L-LSD, D-LSD whatever) and then it becomes illegal, then there's a new derivative, etc It's an open secret that you can buy "magic mushrooms chocolate bars" in some small shops. Just got to know people that know people. I also have seen shops advertising salvia and LSD on boards outside the street, but I assume it's derivatives as well. Haven't checked as I did not enter the store. If you want the "real" stuff, there are telegram channels. Gets you everything you want. You order, tell them a meeting point, they come with car or scooter, and then you exchange. Simple. Have seen it in other countries, too.

Ok just remembered one thing that might be helpful. Sometimes when I have these body experiences, then certain muscles in my body start to shake. I had this also a few times INTENSELY after Adhitthana sittings in Vipassana in my jaw. The shaking was very strong. I thought I break my teeth if I let go completely, so I put my mouthpiece in to keep my teeth intact. Shaking went typically on for MINUTES. So what I do is that I try to find movements, or stillness, or mix of it, simply listening to my body and trying my best to align the energy, contractions, flows whatever to induce this shaking. Now it's more in the back of my head for instance, where the end of spine goes into the skull The reason why I do that is that I read that this is how the body clears traumatic leftovers, tensions blockage etc in muscles/ cells. Animals do it, and there is a whole therapeutic method to create this shakes. So it's a bit more than "just letting it happen" it's a gentle guidance. When you experience these shakes, and you know t how to create them, I would give it a try. Sometimes it's less a shake and more a camping, or stronger flexing of muscles. Also good IME.

@razard86 In short: yes. I once had an LSD trip where I deeply realized how much we do this. I could literally, energetically FEEL these projections on others. And it sparked a strong curiosity in me. I knew that the ONLY WAY to really get to know others is to go beyond this image, appearance, assumption and to truthfully and authentically interact and ask: What are you really saying? What do you mean? How do you really see that? What is it that you want to express? It's an attitude, a mindset as well as being smart, empathic with language (verbal and nonverbal) so that people have courage to drop these ideas and that I can open up to what they truly are vs. what I see in them and what they see in me vs. what really is. Once I learned how much I do project, I can easily see it on others. Of course, it's easier said than done hahaha Requires constant awareness and presence. But I am getting better. Still have this moment of realization of the trip in my mind. Contrary to many other trips, this realization did not fade as fast... @aion I think I know that you mean. My hypothesis is that when you are able to transcend this idea IN THE THIS VERY MOMENT of interaction, in the present - then you open up to a truly creative process instead of being stuck in the ideas/programs. Makes sense? It's a bit abstract

Yeah jaw is CRAZY! Most people I get to know tell me that they grind their teeth, that they use a mouthpiece at night (me too). I get you with going straight to the spot...I tried to direly dissolve it, did not manage this way. Indirect seems better for me for now. But great that it works differently for you everybody is unique : ) And not overfocusing...yeah, that seems crucial. Can happen easily Definitely challenging. New territory. Also happy about the sharing. Can't take the credit for the framing though Another user said sth like this in a different context (don't remember who) and for me it was worth adapting and sharing. Gave me..kind of new hope, you know? I know people that are not in their body at all and maybe they wished they could feel like we do...

Yes I agree. For me it often feels like a subconscious inner conflict that is not aware to many of us humans (including myself, I'm not immune). There's the fight to avoid pain and get pleasure, but also a desire for truth, for something more. Like a inner tug of war. Well description IMO re the mechanisms of "tiring you out". Let's see how fast that will happen

Re the "I am alive and I'm real" --> yeah don't know enough as well, it just surprised me. Infinite words you can say for grounding and this particular sentence seemed very metaphysical for me. Re Jim Newman Watched the first minutes will watch more later in the gym. I like the start and how he says "it's new, it's fresh, it's unknown, alive immediate" and how he compares it with the "I know, I am here, separation"

Yes... but also, he's a projection/ reflection. You put "people" in quotes, so I guess you know what I mean. Whatever you (or me) discuss with him, it's happening in our field of awareness and it's ultimately a reflection of you/me. This road of "others" feels increasingly like a dead end to me. I could be wrong oc. No harm in trying.

Makes sense. Interesting theory. It was very funny to watch a podcast with Peter Levine some days ago. He talked about this and that, showed an exercise where you say a sentence: "I am alive and I am real" (at about 19:30) So it's all about managing the "unrealness" of our experience? We can manage ourselves when we feel alive, when we are engaged in the drama but eventually we have to recognize that we are not? Just reflections and made up "dream material?" Really, it's the last thing I expected from a guy that teaches somatic stuff...."I am alive and I am real". Such a weird moment when I watched this

Feeling it since April, and especially since May when it got much stronger. So I get you re this. Re Psylocibin, it's certainly individual. Maybe it's a different substance for you that helps, maybe none is the best. Don't really know about Angelo. Have seen a video once I guess? Also, not sure if the experiences can be transferred from one individual to another. Your experience with psylocibin seems very different to mine for instance. Maybe it's useful to hear what he's saying, but for me it feels like a message of "find our yourself what you need, feel yourself, find ways to manage your body, find ways to make the best of this experience, don't look too much outside for advice but listen to your own organism". Might be I am wrong and outside advice helps and I am making up a story of "need to do it on my own", but that's how I perceive it right now.

Great question. My POV - as of now - is to go deeper into it, but at calm pace. Stretch, move, work out, relax, cry, laugh, sauna, meditate, talk about it. Interact. Focus attention equally outwards and inwards. It was a overwhelming for me at first to go directly at those somatic stuff with my attention. That's why I say calm pace. So it's like when you meet a woman. Even if you feel it's right, and she's the woman of your life, you don't say "marry me let's have kids" on the first date. You say "was nice seeing you, let's go to the cinema next week?" Or whatever, be gentle. You might even say 'was nice if you want to meet again give a call I'm open to it". You get my point I guess. Psylocibin was / is VERY useful at calming down, setting a state where its easier to experience the somatic stuff. Not a "solves it all" but a great step in good direction. But as I said, new territory for me so can't say I "know" what's best. But whatever and however I do it inside my body, outer reality reflects it almost immediately. Have fun exploring!