theleelajoker

I think it's a good question. My take is that there are some "rules" to this reality that are - for humans - more or less impossible to break/bend. We need oxygen to be alive, gravity eg. Some can be bend more easily. Placebo effect for instance. Other mechanism are up to our imagination. How we see others, relationships, ourself comes to mind

Like that analogy. Only addition is that it is not only language but all ways we use to express ourselves.

So while I agree, I don't do that consciously. Or at least I haven't found a way to consciously manifest people, event and stories. Don't even know if I want that, absolute control is boring I guess?! So what remains? 1) Try to make the unconscious conscious to get more control 2) Totally let go of control. Go with everything that is happening bc I "know" that deep inside it's me, even if I don't "know" right now 3) Balance in between 1) and 2) 4) ? [Please fill in]

@Princess Arabia I like your idea. Going for real experience instead of stories and hearsay. For me, no I haven't seen that. Neither the process, nor a "final" enlightened person. Moreover 1) A person on a screen doing a video is just that. People only show what they want to show. Who knows what is going on with the persons life outside the video. 2) Same for any book, or audio or whatever 3) For me, the real measuring stick is seeing a person in live in situations that are difficult for him/her. See what and how they do it. "Strictly speaking, there is no enlightenment person but only enlightened action." (don't remember source of quote)

OK thx for clarification. I get your point. Also not being a bit fan of idealistic ideas. I just realized that I spent a lot more time alone than I used to in other periods of my life. (still have a gf and close friendships, though. Not many, but some)

1. Bold marked - this just made me realize one (major?) reasons why I was much less social in recent time. I was doubting myself, but I can see now how my tendency to loneliness is a good thing 2. Can you elaborate on the "Individualism downplays the role of other people in our lives, because... it has to. In that sense the paradigm is wrong." please?

What if starting tomorrow, one pretends that Life is like living lucidly in a Dream? Imagine that life is lived like this: What would you do? What dreams would you fulfill for others and for yourself?

Yeah, I agree. For whatever reason, it's doing > knowing, doing > thinking, doing > understanding. Thoughts etc seem just to be a support wheel, the same way you learn how to ride a bike.

Yeah I get you. I guess I was projecting a bit with the idea if helping others. For me it helps if I feel understood. So I want to talk and teach about these things. Which means I need to help people understand what's actually going on. Which fails in 99% of cases. It's sad, but on a personal level, there is actually nobody I can talk completely honestly about all this. I hinted sth with our very experienced Vipassana teacher and even he did "pretend" not to know what I am talking about. The false self is really incredible strong...

I just came back today from a 10 Day meditation retreat (Vipassana after Goenka). I went deeper than I ever went before. Many things they say in the instructions manifested step by step. And I was and I still am a very long distance from further steps and deeper experiences they describe. Still, the insights are invaluable. A lifetime of wisdom compressed in 10 days. I open this forum and see this thread. I go through all the posts from the beginning until now. Pretty much everything @Breakingthewall says resonates as true for me, very much aligned with my experience. @Breakingthewall I admire your patience, again and again discussing, explaining, taking up points, giving examples. I guess reality leaves you with no choice but to do so, creating a strong desire to awaken people, to break through barriers. Your posts helped me (a lot) and surely helped others but due to the nature of this forum a lot of your energy might unfortunately being wasted. Intellect is very limited and understanding fragmented at this mental level. I am at a point where I see that direct experience is what helps most. Direct experience through meditation. Slow, steady progress. Psychedelics are a dangerous game, it shocks the organism and many can't take it. For everybody looking for answers I can only say one thing: Divert attention inside and you are likely to eventually find all answers you are looking for. Edit: Two things that help most: 1) direct experience and 2) a good sense of humor

OK, that left an impression on me. Nice post.

For me, truth has a very practical purpose: It's incredibly exhausting to pretend that things are other than they are. And it leads nowhere. I am insecure and try to pretend otherwise? People will notice anyway. So I can stop wasting my resources trying to cover this. I want to make the next step in my development? I need to accept things as they are to change them. I will not be able to change what I don't accept I want to have a fulfilling live? I need to find out what I truly want instead of chasing wishful thinking Lastly and most importantly: In my experience, life mirrors and reflects me. So if for instance I want to find the right partner for me, I need to send out actions that are as authentic and truthful as possible. Because if I don't, life will always reflect someone that does not reflect my true desires and needs. It will reflect a fake image of who I want to be instead of who I am. Self-sabotage at its best.

Bold marked by me. On a scale on 1-10, how sure are you about that?

I thought about quitting this forum, but the discussion in this thread has been a reminder that there are some nuggets for me to be found. My 50 cents from my experience: It's more than just believe. It can be very deep in the nervous system and intellectual work is not enough. There really seems to be sth like an energetic structure. Karma, trauma, family history... "psychologists are full of learned labels, of what's right and wrong, functional and dysfunctional" very true for most psychologist I know! On the plus side, because they are in touch with so many different people and emotions they are very likely to pick up some skill and openness just by working with and talking to people. "If you tried to rewrite a friend of yours, how do you think he would react?" Like that one very much. A mistake I often did and sometimes still do. I do measure X to change this to Y. Typical error of linear-causal thinking...There is a german word in psychology called "Reaktanz" which means sth like "inner resistance against change from the outside". "by trying to get therapists to understand you, you understand yourself." Resonates. I think that's really the key - you allow to show yourself as you are not hiding yourself anymore. It helps and opens up doors that I sometimes not even knew existed. The psychologist may tell you that you have an insecure attachment because your parents etc, and you may think: Of course, that's it! But the reality is that this is a conceptual story. You have to see your emotional reality, feel it. As far as I can tell, there is really no way around this. Leave the story and just feel what's there. However: Haven't managed to stabilize my state over the years, so can't really trust my own methods : ) Progress, yes but I often wondered how the state I have after meditation retreats can be kept - at least more or less - in the months after. Never managed to do this for a longer time...

@AION 1) Careful about assumptions. There are free retreat that are donation based (Goenka, vipassana e.g.) 2) At home you don't have the structure. You still have to care about basic things like preparing or buying food. At the retreat I know you just eat, sleep, meditate. In between some breaks for walking & some lectures in the evening. You are also more likely to be disturbed at home. One time I tried doing it at home. Turned of all communications and then my neighbor knocked on my door first time ever

@AtmanIsBrahman Go on a meditation retreat for at least a week. Do you best to follow instructions, to observe, to be still and to feel. If you still believe meditation is BS after this, then we can have a conversation again After finishing my first 10 day retreat I had this idea that if I ever founded my own company, it will be a necessary condition that they did at least one long meditation retreat. Why? Because people that do these kind of things have proven to be much easier to work with for me. Of course some people don't need retreats to reach these cooperative behavior and open attitudes - but most do...

@Jowblob Thx for clarifications. In particular the second quote (marked bold by me) got me closer to understanding your point (or at least, makes me believe I understand better). The thing about the importance of the opposite I can observe with me and my male friends. I believe you need the opposite in your life and no other things (money, power, prestige, possessions) can give it to you what a female can give if she freely and voluntarily chooses to be with you for who you are. (Don't know how this plays out with people that are not hetero) The interplay of creation and potential you describe also makes sense for me. I mean, it's actually very symbolic with how sex works and how new life is being literally created IN THE WOMAN. You made me curious enough to at least try some stuff, e.g. some semen retention on days and weeks I don't see my gf.

Nice one I like that! Not seeing enlightenment as a state, but as an infinite process.

No better way to start a Saturday morning then people arguing who is awake, and why and why not, or even better who is more awake. Grabbing popcorn...

Just read this passage to my gf and asked her. She confirmed she's a demon sucking my energy. But she's very cute while doing this, so it's hard to not stay in her claws. But seriously; @Jowblob Why all this effort just to stay away from women? Sure, the differences male/female do create some conflicts, but also wonderful moments of connection. And isn't the female/male attraction and dance somehow a very beautiful part of the game of life? Today I was thinking that given how fast AI evolves, maybe soon (some decades?) many things of life are likely be extremely automatized. Maybe we reach a point where transportation is automatized, food production and distribution and other survival tasks. But what I believe will stay is the hunt for a partner, either as life companion or to have a family. And I think that's kind of nice. Maybe I am missing sth, happy to learn...

I want to live in a world where you can go to your standard psychologist and say "I'm so successful and accomplished in life, but yet I feel so empty inside and I'm longing for something more but I don't know what it is, and I'm an open person who takes in new ideas and sensitive to subtler aspects of life", and the psychologist answers "have you considered just accepting your feelings?"

For me: Similar, but not quite there Similar: A pulsating of surfaces Things that are not moving are now more dynamic Not quite there: I see geometric patterns I normally don't see Things that are 2D like a poster on my wall become vibrant 3D Normal surfaces, patterns and shapes recombine to different shapes and pattern create sth (don't know to to describe it better. Let's say there was a wall with irregular surface, and suddenly these irregularities formed shapes like humans, animals) I don't have the experience of a "center" like during the peak period in the video The pulsating, geometric shapes (like fractals) are more colorful

In my experience there is indeed a cycle with "happiness" and "non-happiness". Up and down. Can't have a one sides coin. A the same time, I feel I do get a bit more relaxed, centered, calm as I grow older. Not caring so much about others expectations, or my own but just doing my thing. Becoming more conscious if my programming, cultural programming etc. Looking more inside than outside, Just remember that "happyness, sadness, pleasure, nihilism" are just words. I learned that it is good for me to go more into physical sensations and less into words. Be careful not to think too much about it. And for the nihilism: This is likely to change instantaneously the moment you meet a girl/boy you like very much. Suddenly you will care about a lot of things quite a lot : )

I think of two: 1. Realizing that the "external" world is not as external as you think it is but much more a refection of the inner one 2. Realizing that the "I" is not that much an independent, separated agent as you thought

Very interesting. Appreciate the discussion. I can follow until here: Not sure how to make sense of that: This new form of life is outside of this dimension of reality? Sth you - maybe - can compare to what you see on a DMT Trip? Makes sense. At the same time, I cannot help the feeling that it's not a "tough evolutionary fight" but a game. As if "life/universe/god" has a sense of humor and "winks" at me from time to time. The very moment I heard of the divine game "leela" it resonated with me immediately. Maybe I am seeing what I want to see, maybe it both a unstoppable push combined with humor, maybe it's none of it. Really curios if we will ever get a "good" answer what this is about.