mr_engineer

This is a strawman. That's vague. It's not concrete enough for me. I need something more concrete than that. I'm talking about problematic patterns that come up when hooking women. Practically. I say this in the OP. You can disagree all you want with my idea of 'love'. Someone asked me what my idea of 'love' is and I answered to them. That's my bias and what I want. It's also an option that people tap into for real. Here's the thing - in unconscious society, men tend to have a male-oriented idea of 'love' whereas women tend to have a more female-oriented idea of 'love'. It's self-biased. My problem with pick-up is that PUAs take the attitude of 'Let's agree to disagree on what 'love' is. I give you what you want, which is your idea of 'love' and you give me what I want, which is my idea of 'love'. (which is sex, really)'. And I don't see this as sustainable long-term, cuz sooner or later, conflict will break out. And the unconsciousness on either side can be problematic. (This explains a lot of 'female drama' in relationships lol) Now, because I am a man, I know what to do about the male side of it. That's what I'm sharing with you here.

I don't see how I'm doing that. Enlighten me.

@_Archangel_ @DefinitelyNotARobot Manipulation is not an absolute evil by any means. However, when it comes to manipulating someone's ideas of 'love', this is where I draw the line. This I find to be very unethical and predatory relative to someone's emotional vulnerabilities. And, it dooms you to loneliness too, because you're going to be alone in the relationship. They are not going to be with you, they're going to be manipulated by you.

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying. And I'm asking you to explain them. For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives. They've made this work and this is what they said. And this is where I want to go with it.

Can humor keep a relationship together? Or do you need a deeper hook-point than humor? Cuz there is a lot of competition on this front too.

PROVE IT!! 99% of people don't have loving relationships or they don't know what 'love' is. Why is that? They're doing exactly this. Do you know why most parents have kids?! Because they have unmet emotional-needs from their adult relationships. Because they didn't figure this out.

@_Archangel_ Here are my questions - How am I supposed to make someone feel a certain way, without manipulating them? Ultimately, you are the source of all of your feelings and emotions, the causes of them are inside of you. So, the idea is to manipulate their conditioning relative to love, right? What if the 'stimulation'-part, is just another rat-race? The issue with this is that the relationship will have a honeymoon-phase after which both sides will get bored of each other and then the problems will begin. And someone will cheat, cuz there are more options. Especially online. And, if you're constantly running after something else, you will never be present with what you have. How will you access 'love', then?!

@DefinitelyNotARobot But, the point of being nice is to generate the feeling of safety and security! In fact, if you are a player, the shit-tests will practically force you to turn into a narcissistic asshole. Going for a player is a 100% backfiring strategy for women. And, even if you're really good with women, does this necessarily mean you can street-fight off a robber who breaks into your house? Not necessarily. My point being, the player-skills are a poor indicator of how strong a man actually is. And, this is no secret to today's women, quite honestly.

Consider the possibility that social norms have been male-dominated in history. And women haven't had that much of an opportunity to evolve. And if we help them evolve, they could get to a more functional position.

@Nilsi This is assuming that you're conditioning your daughters to repeat the same 'mistakes' (assuming that this is what women go for), right? What if you teach your daughters to 'not go for the scumbag players'? Which is exactly what parents teach their daughters, by the way. Even today. Society generally agrees that too much casual sex is detrimental to it. Even today. My point is, I don't see the 'survival-value' in going for a player. It is something else.

@Nilsi Then why not go for the nice-guy? This was the logic behind the sexual-marketplace regulation before feminism, in fact. This was the logic behind the way religion designed the nuclear family. But, after feminism, this radically changed into what we have today. Which is 'taming the player'. Are you sure this isn't a male projection onto what women actually go for? Cuz if you ask women what they want, they say 'we want love'.

@NoSelfSelf Yeah, and being a player basically turns the tables. Only to discover that this 'love' isn't real! Notice how almost every self-conscious player has gone through a time-period of being a nice-guy. And that the naturals are actually the most unconscious ones relative to 'love'. Sounds like a pyramid-scheme. That 'I have value cuz the previous generation said I have value. And they have value cuz their previous generation had value!' Because there is a danger, with the player, that he'll cheat. And his resources will go to some other woman's kids!

@Leo Gura What is the survival-value of 'taming a player'? Wouldn't she be much better off going with a nice-guy, in terms of survival? Cuz he'll be a good provider and stuff.

It's hook-point in both cases. And the mechanism of hooking for them is based on their definition of 'love', because they're emotional creatures. And they're looking for 'love'. It'll change cuz the definition of 'love' will change. You talked about their fantasy of 'taming a player'. Guess where that comes from!!

All the problems don't get solved once you agree on what 'love' is. But, this does create the possibility of compatibility in love-languages. And you can check for that when you're dating them. If you can have compatible love-languages and you can have sexual-compatibility based on that - now that's sustainable in long-term relationship. That's the alternative.

Another reason I'm talking about this is that pick-up sets up a competitive, sperm-war type dynamic between men. That's only getting worse and worse with time. The solution to this problem is for men to not just prioritize a hot woman, to understand compatibility and to help each other find compatible partners. This would be the true role of a 'wing-man', so to speak. Think about it - if your desire to get laid came from a genuine sexual desire/attraction, would you prioritize a hot woman, or a sexually compatible one? That's a good one to contemplate. And then, you get theories like redpill and hypergamy when you apply economic theory to this, assuming that everyone's out for their own materialistic best-interests and figuring out how to regulate that. And I don't have to tell you the problems with those theories.

@NoSelfSelf There is an abundance of such women in New-Age circles. They want to grow themselves, they want to get there. You just have to be prepared to help them with it. Tantric sex can be a huge gateway for them to enlightenment.

@NoSelfSelf Love is Oneness. To love someone is to see that they are You, they are a part of You. As God. In the context of women, women who are conscious of this exude a next-level feminine energy. They possess the ability to heal themselves and you!

@Razard86 Prior to this materialistic day and age, when everyone was religious, it was easier to connect with people, because people believed in the same God, so they more or less agreed on what 'love' is. This is the actual reason the rest of society thinks that pick-up is weird and extravagant. Cuz it wasn't needed before people started to dream big, materially. The problem with pick-up is that it's primarily materialistic and most of the people doing it don't believe in 'love'. Cuz they're materialistic atheists. This makes relationships meaningless. And you have to rely on shallow techniques to hook the other person. And this makes relationships insecure, fundamentally. My solution to this is to date spiritual women, who have a modern, New-Age definition of God. Cuz they're more right about God than the religious people. And vulnerability works to hook them, the same way as 'being a good boy/nice guy' worked to hook them when arranged-marriages were a thing.

@Leo Gura I quote the concept of 'hook-point' as you explained it in your video. That's how I'm using it. Having had your experience, where do you think I'm going wrong in understanding this concept? In my approaching, this is what I'm supposed to be aiming for, right?! Cuz this is what translates to sex/connection. You say 'make 1000 approaches', but what's the goal? Why should I do it, according to you?

Dude, you said this in your 'How to get laid' video. That you gotta hook a woman to have sex. Now, you're saying that's bullshit. Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

But LEEOOO, in order to have sex, you have to hook her, right? And, my issue is with the way pick-up hooks women. And, because a lot of the women in bars and clubs aren't very conscious (they wouldn't be there if they were conscious), the hooking-technique must be manipulative. Employing shallow techniques, like your style, your body-language, etc. I don't have a problem with fixing this stuff. My issue is with this being the primary way I'm hooking her. This leads to problems creating rapport. And, I do not see this hooking-technique as sustainable in a long-term relationship. The moment she grows, or her understanding of love deepens, the relationship with me will become toxic, cuz I will have to be avoidant to stay in this manipulative hooking-pattern! And that's how it'll fall apart.

@Raze Rapport flows very easily with them. You can lead them, no problem. We, as men, love women's beauty. But, because most women are unconscious, they have self-worth issues, in that they are unable to see their own beauty. This is why women especially will talk a lot about self-love. And that's where the shadow-work comes in. When you have this kind of woman, you can hook them by being vulnerable about how you feel about them. And, they'll connect! Then, you can take charge of the masculine/feminine dynamic and take it in the right direction. No manipulation involved. In my opinion, this is the correct way to hook a woman to lead to a loving relationship. The alternative, though, in pick-up, involves fitting a certain image that women have been conditioned with through movies. Cuz that's their image of 'love'. That's what it takes to hook a woman in a club, for example.

@Loba How do you know that you love someone?

Define 'love'. In your terms and her terms.