Toby

Because you use a different map. For example, if you use Nisargadatta as a map "self realization" and even "unity consciousness" is still "I Am" for him.

don't know anything about him but I saw him making videos with Eli Jaxon-Bear and even narrates the Papaji-audio-book. So, massive props to him, that he brings that kind of teaching to that many people.

Did you get feedback from Jan Esmann directly that you are "self realized"?

I would do something with someone that knows about trauma. Approaches like TRE, NARM, Somatic Experiencing or a Hypnotherapist who knows about trauma. Things can have different origins and can be dealt on different levels. For example if something traumatic comes up during meditation and overwhelmes you to a degree that you cannot just experience it... trauma work could help imo. Except it's really just a "dark night", then it might not help or just a little bit.

But even if you have some "direct" experience. Cannot an "external map" serve as a mirror to see your own blind spots? For example the Enneagram would also be "external", but as a map / mirror to show one's blindspots it is unmatched imo. But it also takes courage, just as getting feedback from teachers does.

That's right imo. His description of states doesn't go beyond what Nisargadatta would call universal consciousness or unity conscious (still within the "I Am" spectrum). Doesn't mean that his stuff isn't valuable as a map in many many other areas of life though. But it has it's flaws. Just as Ramaji's map and his ratings has it's flaws.

Samsara = Reality

So you say: "don't listen to anyone outside but go inside". Why would I listen to that? Isn't that also just as theoretical / outside as Ken Wilber?

@Joseph Maynor @Saumaya May I ask why Ken Wilber is perceived as "outside" when you are talking about "your" "Enlightenment"?

@Saumaya that is from Ken Wilbers early books. A lot has changed in his model. The "horizontal" / "vertical" thing is relatively new in his work.

Again, I'm not an expert and read the book like 4 years ago... but I thought yellow was the first stage that is integral but also sees hierarchy/holarchy while tier 1 usually doesn't. Just saying "every perspective is relative" doesn't really sound like inclusive of hierarchy. But I don't know, probably should reread it.

I'm not an expert on spiral dynamics, but isn't that stage green?

Enlightenment trap described from Shinzen Young: https://youtu.be/i288Lnb7NOk?t=4m48s

Because that teacher might point out things you are unable to see for yourself. That is the main reason.

@Saumaya yeah but Absolute Truth is not "Enlightenment". At least not from what I see (right now). It's really easy to confuse teachings from enlightened dudes that focus on realizing the Absolute (Ramana, Nisargadatta) and think that's it. But hey, what do I know. That's just my little theory.

I don't think so. There are different perspectives that can be seen and spoken from. This has to do more with embodiment on different levels as "realizing the truth" clearly is just realizing and not "enlightenment". You know the whole "different facets of the diamond"-thing where each facet looks complete but is in itself not the whole diamond. And that's exactly why I would recommend @Joseph Maynor to visit a competent teacher as there are plenty of good ones where he lives like Adyashanti, Jon Bernie or Mukti. But what do I know... I don't consider myself enlightened.

@Joseph Maynor what's your take on this?

The thing is, I don't claim to be enlightened. But you claiming something like this. And because of this I wanted to know if you get feedback (because I'd recommend it from my own experience to anyone who has some kind of awakening). You said no or didn't want to answer. So that's it. Easy question, easy answer. No need for an argument.

What do you mean: Do you mean the "inner self" authority? Or do you mean "my" experience or lack thereof? Or do you want to have names of people where I get feedback from?

It's not about winning. It's a serious question because - even if there are no others or everyone is you or appears in / as you - feedback is really important. I'm not doubting that you've seen something, whatever it is; but imo it is even more important to get feedback because the mind has the tendency to go into delusions with it. Things one is unable to see for themselves.

Yes, that's what minds do. That is why I am asking...

Maybe some Feldenkrais could help?

I was actually wondering in general... but now I ask you first: when was the last time you got face to face feedback from a real spiritual teacher?

@who chit people use terms differently. from what I sense Ken Wilber (whom you are referring to) uses "Turiyatita" or "Nondual" as what Pradeep Apte calls "universal consciousness" in the Nisargadatta-map. Which is still more on the spectrum of "I AM" / consciousness imo.

@cetus56 Yes, that's why I named Nisargadatta as an example. He uses consciousness and absolute differently (as the other authors do also). A funny little map of his teaching: