BlueOak

Apologies I didn't understand because you quoted my comment about crime etc. Yes that's very true of anyone acting on an identity too strongly.

Life in prison for these guys, no parole.

You'd care if the country fell into instability, you were personally robbed or couldn't afford the basics.

That's how I feel. If I step into my own bias, I couldn't care less. What I do care about is social order, crime and a functioning economy far more than where someone is from. Because these things all impact my life. If they are contributing to society, not criminals and contributing to the economy then i'd open the borders as far as they can be, while maintaining the rule of law and social cohesion. This is why 'contributing to society is first on that list', because they'd be actively keeping it stable and prosperous. People who should not be let into the country, are those who have no wish to join the society as it currently stands, don't want to work or have sufficient criminal records to warrant concern i.e more than a traffic or minor offense. So the very first question to any immigrant should be something like this for my country: What do you love about the UK What are you going to do to contribute to keeping it that way. ^That is healthy nationalism, not pulling people off farms then whining when you have no farm workers and asking for bailouts, and watching food prices rise. That's just plain idiocy. As is barging into elementary school graduations, the people responsible need jail time for that, from the person who organised it through to the goons executing it.

Newsom has a spine, which is a start. Little of this pushback is policy-based, meaning it can change with a few changes in perspective and then some serious investment into the left wing media machine again. I just watched a democratic senator responsible for the oversight of immigration get thrown to the ground and arrested for asking a question. When he got to make a speech afterwards, he sounded like he was about to cry. This is weak and it's not what's needed. Like Vaush said, he should have grabbed that podium with both hands. Part of this temporary pressure cooker we are all sitting in is to make men men again. A behaviour which is being rewarded and the opposite is being punished. While embodying masculinity, you hit Trump on his more feminine and also immature qualities. Its also a reflection of some of the wound that exists in men which tangles things. Trump's constant need for reassurance about being the best, like a kid needing a pat on the head. For example, you see this in men asking women to show some gratitude for doing a hard days work in red pill communities. *This is something liberals do 'okay' at as its more image-based, but they constantly aggravate this wound rather than heal it. Trump's need to express emotion outwardly all the time, rather than have it contained and processed internally, to build strength and order within before doing so. This is an hour-by-hour thing with Trump, he is in a reactive mode and mind constantly. *This is about his instability as a leader, a personality, and a man. (The last being critical to the republican base and current moment). - This comes out in everything, every action or decision of his you live through.. The need to blame others for our own internal failings. A lack of responsibility, accountability and discipline. In Trump this is constant and never-ending. It makes a weak man. And this needs to be talked about daily to re-parent a generation or two of lost men who never got taught it. That's off the top of my head, and its things you can do right now. The perspective shift happens gradually, when you are able to take on their own language fully. *Please note you don't need to argue traditional or untraditional gender roles with me, this is me speaking outside of my own internal bias. I couldn't care less about it.

US Senator Thrown Out and Arrested by Trump Thugs: By the way, he's a member of the immigration subcommittee. I talked about this elsewhere but the speech afterwards was indeed a missed opportunity. The dems need to grab that podium with both hands at a time like this.

What are the dems supposed to do when every immigration bill they propose the right rejects? If you mean the left of the dems, the actual left, then no, that's their place. Just like it's the right's place to push for the opposite, in a healthy functioning system, a centre ground would be established, and the two sides of the political spectrum would keep it in check. The circle of America politics looks like this to me. The left shouts a few things. The center shrugs, ignores it, and tries to do politics. The right ignores the center, and just does outrage drama politics. The center tries to court the right, and sometimes gets things done, at the cost of becoming ever more right-wing themselves. The right then have to keep going further right, to remain right of the Dems. Making more outrage, and more nonesense up to keep eyeballs on them. Then the left shout a few things and the circle repeats. This is why I say a pure duality political system has failed, not because it can't work, because it isn't working. America is actually a three-pole political system, trying to be a dual system.

Does everyone representing the right know how many bills the democrats have tried to pass on immigration? A hell of a lot more than the republicans. This is about perception and the need for labor. The perception that the right is strong on immigration and the perception of fear The right's worship of capitalism, which requires cheap labor. A fascist's need for an opponent. A minority of actual left-wing commentators who would advocate for lax border controls. The actual left is so small these days I don't know how anyone with a straight face can blame the actual left for anything practically. Except to try to engineer perception for their own viewpoints.

Among people who treat race as a reason to trust anyone. For everyone else, one has nothing to do with the other. The economy benefits from the labor, which means your quality of life is almost directly proportional to the strength, health, and skillset of the labor force. Along with obviously how that labor is used, maintained, and looked after with services. Culture which underpins everything in society, thrives with new inspiration. People dismiss this, but it both drives and stabilises almost everything about a country or region. Being a high immigration country and a rich, dynamic one nets you the best minds, the intellectuals want to be there. That is where development happens, that is how you rise and fall as a country in relation to your neighbours over time. These are some of the benefits of immigration off the top of my head, everyone always wants to shout about the opposite, so you all know those already. Social issues of integration, housing, fear from the unknown or uncertainty, more criminality from the levels of poverty and inequality driving it that an initial immigrant experiences, etc.

Understanding something doesn't mean embracing it.

To them it is important, I accept that. To me, it's a pigment, the level of melatonin in the body. Skin color means nothing at all to me. I engage people on an individual basis. Their belief systems, and moreover how they are in that moment, have significantly more to do with how our interaction goes. Black, Brown, White, doesn't matter. These two perspectives are almost impossible to reconcile; only accept and work out a compromise. Hence, if you are accepting its importance to them, you have to also accept the same for the other side. That's what you either don't understand or are choosing not to vocalize. That is what the right will not do. So you are expecting me to forever move toward their position, and on these fundamental disagreements of race I cannot and will not. I will fight for the equal treatment of all races under the law and betterment within society till the day I pass from this earth, whenever I am in a position where it's called on to do so.

Here is another way to neutralise that from a sensible righting perspective. Define humane to me in this context. As this too is a conflation. Then humane can be exactly defined in law. I personally think it'll be hard to define humane to mean, not working for the collective good while you are in prison. By hard labor I am meaning useful jobs that contribute. I feel the majority of the country, including the left are for tracking immigrants.

This is also the absurdity of nationalism. Rather than try to improve the economic reality of neighbouring countries, so people don't emigrate in the first place, we are threatening to go to war with them instead. Rather than say to ourselves, let's not paint ourselves as the best nation on earth, and dominate everyone culturally; let's be realistic about our flaws and promote other cultures outside of our own. Then people might want to move there instead! Shocking I know. But nationalists have always and will forever be some of the most clueless people about the world around them because they are always focused nationally. What about high-speed trains with living accommodation in mexico? What about instead of fighting economic realities, we actually engage with the need for labor, and provide a way to get into the US and out effectively, encouraging those workers to legally register and be tracked? Here is a rightwing help: If penalties are needed, make it hard labor for illegals crossing; give them jobs that fill the labor shortage before they are deported. Am I the only one who can think of things like this? Is the entire world dumber than me? No, they'd just rather go roll tanks through Washington, shoot at protestors in LA and thump their chest in some desperate way to prop up outdated institutions and ways of thinking, which fight the economic and actual reality rather than guide or fix it.

Again, because you are conflating those engaged in the legal process of immigration with those who are not. The right, says: Leftists don't want to talk about illegal immigration or its restriction. I answer: That's because the right wants to stop all immigration; its not about the legality of immigration or better the ethical or moral framework it is structured under. If we were arguing ethics and morality, at least that'd be an improvement, hell, even the economic reality for all concerned, but we are just arguing skin color Leo and the culture war. It's not an honest discussion of the issues surrounding it, else that'd be what we are talking about. You saw the quote I gave right? From the Latina's for Trumps co-founder specifically complaining about exactly what I am stating here. To generate fear effectively at the border, you'd do it at the border. Its about generating fear, yes, but inside the country itself, white supremacists wanting a white state, the people running it like Stephen Miller are white supremacists. Indirectly you (speaking as the right) are correct that fear will play a factor, but only because you want to ignore everything I am trying to say about legal immigration and the reasons behind this, and the absurdity of turning a city into a warzone, while at the same time complaining it is in fact a war zone.

@Leo Gura You representing the right here, are conflating illegal immigration with legal immigration. Therein lies the point and purpose of the protests against the state, that and the military occupation of a city to conduct these illegal and unconstitutional raids. If immigration law is changed to your position, you'll be arguing for the law, at present, you are not. But as i've said, morality trumps the law here, even if what you were arguing for here was indeed lawful, it wouldn't be ethical or moral.

Many of those getting arrested are going through the official channels. This is why the law is being weaponised against the people. The community in this context refers to those with whom you are directly in contact on a day-to-day basis, or those with whom you associate sufficiently to draw on some of the things I described. Directly or indirectly benefitting from them. Most of the social programs, individual groups and institutions people are not even aware they benefit from until they are no longer in place, but all of them contribute to people's quality of life, experience and the stability or resulting lack of. A lack of stability results in things like the corruption or criminality of your country. Also: https://thehill.com/immigration/5339542-latinas-for-trump-co-founder-blasts-mass-deportations/ The co-founder of Latina's for trump quote: “This is not what we voted for,” Garcia wrote in a post on the social platform X. “I have always supported Trump, @realDonaldTrump, through thick and thin. However, this is unacceptable and inhumane.” “I understand the importance of deporting criminal aliens, but what we are witnessing are arbitrary measures to hunt down people who are complying with their immigration hearings—in many cases, with credible fear of persecution claims—all driven by a Miller-like desire to satisfy a self-fabricated deportation goal,” she continued in her post, referring to White House homeland security adviser and deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller.

When family is illegally taken from you, while going through the due process of the state, and you are being targeted because of your skin color, why is it you don’t think an expression of anger is entirely logical? You want this to be bottled up and then taken out on a cop? I agree it'd be nice if we all lived in a world where emotions could be consciously channeled, but we draw a lot of this emotional strength and stability from our community, and if that community is actively being targetted, splintered and attacked, then this is the result. - *We do this even if we don't consciously realise it, its the energy we are in, its all the shared day-to-day experiences, the tone, the support, the service, the institutions, all the smaller groups in the background, and the overall experience we have of life. It's like you are looking at one of your hands being beaten black and blue and then wondering why its doing what it can to defend itself.

Leo in this role is your mentor, he's taking a role that will hopefully help you. Note: I am generally with your position, and I would be actively organising a group against it if I was in the states and faced with it. The liberal centralist position is to remain orderly and ride out the status quo, with some political pushback ofc. But honestly they need to effectively use the law to hold ICE accountable also if that is the official opposition. Things like an ICE operative pointing a gun at a distraught wife because they are taking her husband, for example, needs to be quashed now legally and procedurally. Before the next wife gets shot and then all hell breaks loose. - Which is esentially what is going on now, with the law weaponised against the people, not for them. *International press reporters getting shot isn't exactly going down well either abroad:

My bills are covered and I have a steady job, but even I find it hard to start a successful business. Get a job any job even if it sucks,, then just keep upgrading but never leave the one you have until you've found better. I tell that to everyone but you'll find it easier to get better jobs if you've been working previously and have the basics covered.

Let's just cut through it: Its largely about skin color. They consider it threatening to their race to have other races or mixed races among them. Most people couldn't even describe culture if you told them about it, or name many countries on a map, let alone understand them. So its skin color, that's it. What the people enforcing this are doing is trying to rid America of black and brown people, discourage them from arriving. That's why they have so many white supremacists in ICE. Its Nazi leaning, its worse than a fascist doctrine. Shooting at reporters as is going on is fascist, but the overall policy is a Nazi policy. People use that lightly, I don't. The people running the government, not just trump who is a moron but the actual people he has running the show Like Pete Hegstaff, they are Nazi's or at least white supremacists.

No point when the state is fascist its too late. I'll be out in the streets here if it happens. As much as I say morals are subjective, laws don't trump basic core morality, like simple obvious things. Right to protest etc. Like not breaking up families and arresting people at schools and stuff. I'd be out there too. That's worth fighting for.

I know you are taking the opposing position for growth but you still downplaying the severity. It won't be rubber bullets for much longer Leo. There will be mass riots soon. Depending how long the idiocy goes on for. There is a million better ways I could design to do what you are describing, but the people in charge are foolish just interested in headlines over results. From steady tightening of controls or entry rights to overt fear at the border, to a reduction of rights for new immigrants in ways that people moan about (job preferences) For example, fear at the border, is less disruptive because its not in the cities, schools, shops, graduation courtrooms (pre sentencing) etc. This is just disruptive and dumb. It's going to lead to violence against the people doing it, and not just in the streets. These are families being torn apart and everyday lives. You can not paper over that even in a day or week of fear. Or eliminate that anger in a month or a year. It'd take suppression for a decade, more given how racially mixed America is. So all that can be achieved here is a destabilizing of society, because American society is mixed race not solely white. As always humanity does too much rather than do things gradually; duality is so stupid in design.

I don't usually agree with Hasan But when he said, if you don't want anarchy or chaos, you have to, at the very least, advocate for due process and be represented by part of government. If your family and close friends are getting arrested after going to court, while following due process, if nobody represents you, then you do it yourself. It's that simple. The democrats have gone too far right, and too far into pro state/pro-status quo to represent the people they supposedly represent adequately in times like these. Saying, just stay home and stay safe, doesn't work when they are being targeted directly. So what does that leave? Anarchy, people vs the state. @PurpleTree I don't think any one incident would ever do that, but its straining the status quo, and government legitimacy, with no adequate (or sane) official response to it.

So now trump wants to 'liberate' LA from the people living there. That's you black and brown people out there. I can't really describe the utter disgust I have for him, and I don't even live there. He must have everyone looking like him, acting like him, praising him and treating him as a king. They disguise it all under fighting illegal immigration and then arrest people going through legal channels like court appearances. It's just a complete farce, and its going to get violent. I think it'll be waves of violence, with periods of quiet, but again like India/Pakisatan if the wrong person gets killed, on either side, then you've got large riots and/or martial law and civil unrest like we've not seen since the 80s/90s. Narcissists who need everyone to look like them and love themselves, worshipping them, don't make good rulers; they just don't. Forget about talking about eroding public trust in the police; this is going to set the places affected back 20 years. Why do I care so much? Because you inspire the same idiocy I have to deal with where I live. Usually a lesser version of it but it filters through everything.

@Rafael I get it, we all have things that directly impact us but I don't tend to drop general terms like fascist or nazi without getting a lot of feedback that they are true across the country. Not just in one region or for one type of interaction. I've been using fascist for a few years of the right wing in America, with the obvious addition that elections still exist, there is a mostly free press, protests, etc., and the democrats are not fascist, they are more authoritarian or centre-right. So to say Nazi is difficult, but this is a step in that direction. If it were more targeted to all races, then I would have stuck with fascist, but it seems directly targeted at people with brown and black skin.