Consept

I think a trap that some have fallen into on this thread is that they think there is a particular narrative or way of thinking that is right. What i mean by that is that maybe when they were younger they felt with 100% certainty that what they learnt in school was right, what the mainstream was telling them was right etc or at least they didnt question it. Now theyve switched to an anit-mainstream way of thinking, but the truth of it is to escape the matrix its nothing to do with the content or theories or whatever else youve attached yourself to, like say you change your mind on your current theories and move to another set youre still trapped in the idea that there is just one perspective that is right. To get out you need to realise that no one perspective is right, even a narrative is mostly an illusion, they package it up in docs and books but how much info do you think they are ignoring? Thats not to say they dont have value but thats when your discernment comes in, isnt a crazy coincidence that most conspiracy theorists settle on the same conspiracies and the same general narrative, what a strange coincidence that everyones out here doing independent research but they all have exactly the same narrative, that could of course mean 2 things, that narrative is the actual reality of the world so if you look hard enough youll find it, or that youve been fed the same stories and end up believing the same things. The way you are approaching this is holding your progress up, you may not see it now but you will at some point hopefully

Thats fine but the weight isnt balanced, you should scrutinise official scientific research as much as you can but you should also do that with the alternative research that has been presented here. For example there are many articles that just dont hold up to scrutiny that have been posted here, but you havent said ok maybe i was wrong about that. Yet articles that are scientific research you dismiss because without looking into because you say they are funded by agenda. OK so using your own logic that things that are funded by agenda are as useless as 'wild speculation,' the doc 'Out Of the Shadows' which is obviously funded by the right wing for their agenda and has been used several times here and i believe theres even another thread about it, should definitely be thrown out. Do you see that that is literally your own logic but it only seems to apply one way

I must say @Serotoninluv is in fire, ive learnt so much in this thread, so thanks for that. Its funny because it started off as a thread about conspiracy but actually its a real look at confirmation bias. I asked earlier what would need to be shown in terms of evidence or facts to make you question your belief and essentially its nothing, even with a doctor (not an appeal to authority) telling you first hand, so much evidence, logic and everything people still cling to these beliefs. Whats interesting is that the same weight is not put on the evidence that has been used to gain these beliefs in the first place, for example to know that vaccines are terrible for people, it might have taken a youtube vid, a book and some unverified sources and people will believe it without needing much else or but to dispute it they can have a doctor tell them first hand, they can have a scientific consensus with thousands of tests done, research etc etc but they still will cling to the original belief. If there was even one study that proved the autism and vaccine link that would be held up all over the place but yet there a thousands that dont prove it yet you dont accept them, so either the scientific research is valuable or its not, if its not accepted when you dont like the result then it shouldnt be accepted and even used as an argument when you do like the result. Do you see the fallacy of these viewpoints?

@TobiaRespect bro, takes a lot to look at yourself in that way

Still be respectful though, these are traps i know weve all probably been caught in, in the past and still get caught up in

I didnt say they were bad im just saying they would have an agenda, youre not watching unbiased docs, i would 100% feel the same if it was a doc funded by left wing people and had a very obvious partisan rhetoric, the point isnt where they sit on the spectrum its that theres an obvious agenda behind them. Conspiracy theorists big argument is that mainstream media cant be trusted because of those behind it, my point is that these docs that are being held up as proof against the mainstream media also are funded by similar people that are behind the mainstream media. Potentially its worse with the docs as the people are hidden. So its like escaping one matrix and getting caught in another

Guys look im not completely dismissing your docs, there is some truth in them but like @Serotoninluv says they only provide a very narrow view. You get entangled in them because they take facts but then adjust them to an agenda but the way they do it is pretty ingenious as they add fear, rebelian and many other factors that stoke the paranoia within you. I bring up the docs because its really the only thing people seem to point to. Now all these docs have some kind of backing esp the well produced ones, ive been recommended 2 in the last couple days one from the Epoch Times which is actually the second biggest funder of Trump facebook ads and Out of the Shadows which is very clearly funded by right wing people although its not clear who exactly. Now before you watched these kind of docs you wouldve never backed Trump about anything and rightly so given the ridiculous amount of examples of just shitty things hes done, which i mentioned in an earlier post. Now you back him in his decisions, regardless of the stories you tell yourself in your mind and regardless of how right you think you are, the fact is very clear you have changed your mind because of at least some right wing propaganda. The fact that its mixed with truth is beside the point of course they would do this to manipulate you. Look at things with nuance, its not just 'vaccine bad, so gates bad, trump no like gates, trump good' (im not saying guys think exactly like this but some on my feeds do), everything is super nuanced and i feel like a lot of you are blind to that at the moment. Im not worried about you because youre on here so you will develop past this but still it needs to be pointed out

Cool bro but whats the contingency plan for when all the billions of medical treatment from Gates its taken out of Africa? Treatment that has saved millions of lives, are all you 10 million people gonna crowd fund and sort that out? What solution do you think is best im sure youve all researched and know where Gates is going wrong. Again have you even asked people in poverty stricken areas that hes helped their experience or what they want? Do you know what effect conspiracy theories have had on people in these communities with Aids and HIV in the past? Shit is ridiculous, everyone on some dumb crusade living in relative luxury typing on their computers that those in need shouldnt get they help they need because they have some at best 50/50 theory on vaccines, help might i add they themselves have gotten since birth

Yes brainwashing at its finest

@LaucherJunge I mean we didnt really start of talking about pedo rings. But anyway so youve seen all this first hand or who has told you this?

@LaucherJunge Since we're here let me ask you, what evidence would it take or what would have to happen or for you to see for you to question your belief and possibly lower your certainty that its true, what would it look like? Is there anything that would make you question it?

I think this whole movement is just memes lol. But cool if you think Trump and Putin are the good guys then good for you, see what freedom of speech you have under Putin. But good luck i hope you get to the end of the rabbit hole

My brother, do you see how many stories and projections you weave around actual facts just to keep your narrative in tact? Theres excuses and reasonings but you never shift from your viewpoint, why are you holding on to it so tight, have you built up some identity that you know whats really go on and no one else does? I mentioned the deeds Trump has done and you didnt even know about them yet you defend him blindly. I know it wont register with you now but i honestly hope at some point you see through this and truely open your mind up and the same for anyone following this post, attempt to take away all your bias and just look at facts, dont add narratives that youve seen in docs and be willing to constantly change your mind in light of new evidence, otherwise you really are a pawn

Theyre not really allegations, I mean its pretty well documented in terms of the central park 5 - Ive attached the actual ad he took out below. He was a vaccine skeptic but changed his mind after the big measles outbreak last year - https://www.statnews.com/2019/04/26/trump-vaccinations-measles/ The FBI released 400 pages of documents into the research on his housing discrimnation policies in the 70s - https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2017/02/trump-fbi-files-discrimination-case-235067 I mean when does someone become a racist? To be honest maybe hes not but one thing is clear money, wealth and fame is more important than human lives to him. One thing ill say if i had to choose whos had more of a positive impact on the world id definitely go with gates over trump

Im sure theres plenty of devliry on the left as well, its not really about right and left for me its more about whos behind them and what are their intentions. But anyway just to pick you on the trump not being racist point, im not sure that he is but im sure hes done plenty of things that directly affect black people and i would say specifically because theyre black. Take for example the central park 5, he took a full page advert out in the new york times calling that these 5 minors, kids in fact all under the age of 16, (all of them black or latino) should be given the death penalty for allegedly raping a female jogger in the park despite pretty much no evidence against them, in the end they got lengthy prison sentances until they were fully exonerated by a confession and dna evidence. Now of course we dont know that is racist he couldve just wanted what he thought was justice but at best its ridiculously irresponsible and could have ended in the deaths of 5 innocent boys. So hes either dangerously dumb or racist i dont know whats worse for a sitting president. You might say oh but that was 30 years ago, he was asked last year and still didnt apologise or admit he was wrong. Apart from that theres numerous stories of him having racist policies on his buildings and tenants. So i dont know i will always judge a man by his actions. Yes im not saying democrats are angels, im not american either but its clear to see there are a lot of issues in politics, having said that Trump could be very dangerous as were seeing now with the pandemic, but having him in power maybe the step we need to evolve past it.

The people in front of the truth movement i believe have good intentions (good intentions lead to hell as they say), i believe they believe what theyre saying and probably dont have any political agendas, in fact they probably lean left but the people behind the movement 100% have an agenda, i mean thats very very obvious, as i mentioned the doc that you shared and suggested i watch is very obviously backed by right wing people, both from the language they use, their rhetoric, the fact that theyre directly attacking democrats. I mean any doc can be funded by anyone it doesnt make it bad inherently that its funded by them but they are very obviously pushing an agenda its not a neutral film in anyway. Youve been tricked to think everyone else is pawns youre potentially spreading right wing propaganda and your defending it to the death, just from you being on this forum and understanding certain things id say youre at a higher level than average in terms of development but even youve been tricked and you dont see it. One thing is right these people are very powerful, do you not think they see the potential in being able to bring those against them with a well produced documentary to engage truthers who will in turn engage the masses? This is high level inception, i mean thats my conspiracy theory anyway haha

Yeah it does always seem to come down to documentaries on youtube, not belittling that but just find it interesting. So one thing ive noticed with all these documentaries is that they almost always have only right wing contributors (Kevin Shipp & Liz Crokin in out of the shadows), and very often lead toward blue so they talk about christianity as a default or what you should be. They never directly say who produced it but they will say its been produced by patriots or something like that. You might say 'of course they wont say because the powerful will get them', Id say most likely its produced by the powerful on the right wing and they need to disguise that so they hide behind 'patriots'. Maybe im wrong but the rhetoric is definitely right wing. Theres a lot of money put into these docs, where do you think that comes from out of nowhere, the 'patriots' that produced are probably in the 1% themselves. So is it possible that theyve just found another way to manipulate you to go to their political side?

Bro listen im not asking for evidence because im trying to challenge you or trying to be right. So many people are talking about this so i looked into with an open mind like ok this could be true lets see, i looked myself, looked at studies, looked at bill gates reasoning, looked at actual results of vaccinations in Africa, looked at why they are getting vaccinations. I couldnt see anything nefarious, theres some issues with ingredients etc but on the whole it looks like its a positive. But of course i could definitely be wrong right so im asking a so called enlightened community for literally any credible source, or even better statistics that clearly show why these are a net negative. I dont know whats in the mans heart so i cant say if that there is or isnt any evil intention behind him but neither can you, my leaning would be he seems to be wanting to do good and it is from a good place because ive seen millionaires not doing it from a good place and trust me it looks completely different, but thats my experience and yours might be different, fair enough. But taking his mindset out of it which we have to as if were being honest we do not know anymore than we completely know whats going on in our partners minds, where are the stats or anything to justify so much outrage, again i actually want to learn i havent made up my mind at all, but i have only ever been presented with propaganda which is essentially in some cases is taking things out of context, some obvious agenda against him (a picture with bill gates made to look like the devil was one of the sources in this thread). But thats fine if there arent any sources, maybe he did pay like what a million families to keep quiet plus all the doctors bla bla bla he has enough money. So what are we basing this on then, if we say theres no evidence or credible sources, what is the argument, do we just feel like hes bad? I mean he hasnt said anything directly himself neither has his team, neither has anyone around him. Is it a documentary is that where all the info has come from? I dont mean to sound disingenuous because im not but i honestly dont get it. People saying i havent researched enough, then obviously you have so where is the evidence?

No one's saying you have to take it, problem is when you have really just speculation and projection and spread it, it can have a detrimental affect on others. The more realistic thing to say about this whole Gates thing is he's trying to do what he can do, maybe there are some issues with vaccines but on the whole they've been positive, in fact part of the reason why a lot of us are not paralysed or dead is specifically because of vaccines. What is the evil that Gates has done I really don't get this. I'm not looking for a mainstream source @LaucherJunge just something that isn't propaganda and that is a neutral viewpoint. Did anyone read the article from the South African journo? No, not important? OK go back to telling Africans what's best for them

You know what I find crazy is that conspiracy theorists never ask say Africans who would be in receipt of the vaccine, who's very lives might depend on it what they think of the situation. You say no one should be forced to have vaccines, nowhere have I seen its forced btw, but your intention is to force them not to have it, you don't care about freedom of choice, only your agenda. Are you thinking that they're not properly educated and you need to educate them on vaccines? Then what's the plan? Did you know 950 people a day were dying from hiv and aids in South Africa at one point and lots more people died because conspiracy theories mainly from the west slowed down treatment as it added fuel to the fire of right wing white south Africans? Are you so 100% sure in your beliefs that you're willing to let millions die if you're wrong? Which is a definite consequence if Bill Gates help is taken out of Africa. You talk about being on the wrong side of history, say you succeed with anti vaxx and millions die or say you're right millions will still die because you're not giving solutions all you'll be able to say is 'I was right', well done I'm happy for your ego. I'm still yet to see any concrete proof or even any wet cement proof that anything actually happened, all I'm asking for is something not from a right wing source, not propaganda that says bill Gates has killed millions of people or anything that justify the hate he's getting. If you're interested in what an African thinks he's an op Ed from a south African journalist, I'm sure you won't read it as for some reason their opinions don't matter in the anti vaxx mission but here it is anyway - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businesslive.co.za/amp/fm/opinion/2020-04-09-justice-malala-5g-bill-gates-and-anti-vaxxers-how-mad-conspiracies-set-sa-up-for-tragedy/

I mean hes pretty clear about it and yes that is his strategy, providing better healthcare will ultimately reduce how many kids people have. I know you dont like looking at him lol but he talks about it here -

Thats what im saying ive researched a lot on Bill Gates specifically to find out where all these dead kids are and i cant find anything, so i thought someone who says might have a reason or something theyve read. Yes i guess if he killed millions of people who couldve paid people off even though imagine a million peoples families you would think something wouldve come out by now, but at best thats complete speculation. I dont im honestly very confused by this situation why are people so sure about this with next to know back up? I mean that article is all over the place and from another christian website, anti vaxx website, i mean these websites could actually be the real problem. A more realistic conspiracy is that these right wing sites aim to cause the hold on adequate medical care in Africa to kill as many Africans as posible because they are trying to depopulate the world, i say that because that is literally what is happening

Right but do you see that that could be a projection? I mean it makes complete sense theres always been a distrust of those in power or those that are rich etc. So i understand why you might feel like that but knowing someone has a criminal record and believing someone has a criminal record just because they have tatoos say is not the same thing. This will be a recurring problem because the only people that are capable of making massive billion dollar change are obviously going to be billionaires, if we always distrust them this will constantly happen meaning that we will never get change where its most important. Of course im not saying all billionaires are great people because probably many arent but judge someone by their actions, Bill Gates has actually done a lot of good if you look into it, if we'd listen to him in the first place about corona viruses we wouldnt be in this position now or at least better prepared. But even if hes right and doing good, if i could just see one story that shows hes killing millions of people as is the claim Id completely rethink my opinion on his actions

Right I get what youre saying he definitely has money to silence people if thats what he wants but how do we know thats the case? Regarding the article it seems to be a very christian (their headline story is an unironic 'did god send the corona virus), anti vax website which is fine but the story doesnt actually mention that he killed anyone, it says he poisoned millions with a vaccine but obviously theyre saying that as thats what the believe. The main source the site is called 'Health Impact News', which as you can see themselves post unsupported and misleading stories - https://sciencefeedback.co/outlet/health-impact-news/ But forget that although it is important as it misleads a lot of people, the point is that a lot of this is based on this belief that hes killed so many people, i really think if that was the case someone wouldve heard about or at least know the story from 2014 as you say. I mean look how many people have died from corona and thats on the news constantly. So im just struggling to find the truth in all these conspiracies. As you can see in this article which is an op-ed from a journalist in South Africa he talks about how conspiracy theories and pressure from the west caused delays on the HIV treatment which then cost the lives of millions. So i think its very easy to sit here with our health system and privilege but the fact is there are many people dying in Africa and by us spreading these rumours there is a high potential we ourselves are costing lives, these same people who have these opinions are not out there helping people. It would be ok if there was any evidence to back it up - https://www.businesslive.co.za/fm/opinion/2020-04-09-justice-malala-5g-bill-gates-and-anti-vaxxers-how-mad-conspiracies-set-sa-up-for-tragedy/

@Preety_India Just to pick you up on this point, do you have any sources for this, even if its just an article or something? Not to get at you but i hear this claim a lot but theres never anything to back it up, I feel like im missing something because i dont get why people say this as fact