Sugarcoat

You made a point I haven’t thought about before

I don’t know how someone devoid of a self experiences physical torture. If it’s suffering or not But it seems the appearance of torture only becomes a problem when there’s a conscious experiencer of it So if infinity gives rise to all appearance, it could potentially do so without there being a conscious experiencer experiencing every single appearance Or does infinity also include all possible illusions (the self) from all possible POVs? Meaning for every appearance there is: there is a version of it with a conscious experiencer (illusion) that experiences it? Hmmm. Who knows

I’m with you except I’ll just ask about that first sentence. Do you mean that we (the self) is like a veil on pure perception or that perception itself is a filter for reality? So from human pov we can’t access pure reality? If you don’t mind

🩶

I would just call that avoidance of pain I see avoidance of pain and seeking of happiness as two distinct forces.

Ok we have some common ground ”it just means you’re taking that stance toward life”. Yea that was what I was thinking, that you favor that mindset partly because it feels empowering, and you don’t wanna feel like a victim What would you say the principle of openness demands? I think part of it is purifying your psyche of identifying with ideas, like how someone could be locked into a paradigm because it favors their identity

Ok teacher …. 😂 You meant the part where you wrote about imagining being a helpless victim? When I read it I imagined it, but I see it as my position taken to an extreme- so it’s not the same as what I’m saying I think it’s smart to try to become responsible for your experience to the extent you find you can, because it puts you in a better position to be able to change your experience into a better one How do you differentiate being and self? Isn’t the self a being (me), even if it maybe doesn’t actually exist? I think I got the openness part down…(I’ll allow you to roll your eyes or whatever if you want)

I removed my original comment but there i said “have you ever been curious about how torture feels”, and no I wouldn’t wanna experience torture, the vast majority of humans wouldn’t want that. Why ? Because it’s unimaginable suffering , who wants that? It’s not about loving the self it’s about pain being painful

Hugs

I can’t deny the “being aware of myself” vs “being myself”. It seems both co exist. I don’t really know what the self is…just that it seems to not only be a thought (like some say)

We have just came to different conclusions from our observations. My position doesn’t imply helplessness. We can use willpower, change our brain/mind etc In my life when I have overcome things it hasn’t been “just stop generating that activity” it has been a more complex process. But nevertheless it has been successful (not saying it’s impossible to “just stop generating the activity, for example some advice about binge eating says : “just stop” and it works for some) Im not super firm in what I say too so I could change my mind. I don’t deny the role of the self completely I just see it intertwined with other factors beyond it But I can def see how your mindset can feel empowering

Ofc I wouldn’t wanna experience it

👍🏻 It seems the self has the odd quality that: we are it, while we are also aware of it… The self def doesn’t seem hidden from me lol. If I could tell you how big part of my life used to be about improving my self image I think having the ability to set aside what you think you know can be useful yes… I see 😊

Maybe you could cut out certain pieces of the brain and show it to someone and they wouldn’t identify with it so yea maybe we don’t identity with brain, but it could be thought so because we feel located somehow behind the eyes Not really but with enough willpower and attention it has the potential to stop a reflex I’d say

The brain maybe… But the body can affect our choices in for example if we put our hand on a hot stove we will reflexively pull away. So the choice that the self has can be what the body/brain is wired for in some instances

You could say the self is the very programming and brain wiring too, so even if the boy got programmed to think smoking is cool and is wired to try to fit in the tribe socially, you could still say he made that decision so yes in that sense I agree. But it’s like the self is not this independent entity with choice it’s a collection of the biology, conditioning etc.

It shifts for me What are you grounding your assumption of that it doesn’t work on?

Yes the self did that- but it doesn’t say much about what made the self do that, if it’s a conscious and autonomous decision or not

I have similar thoughts you’re really speaking to my heart in this

Me wiggling my feet while sitting happened automatically, etc .We say “we do it” because that’s what we call any action, it’s how we use language, but it doesn’t say everything about how the action arose Its still my responsibility in the sense that I have the choice to stop those things I didn’t eat much so if I imagine pasta carbonara I can feel very subtle craving that wasn’t initially there So yea maybe I was wrong I can indeed create desire. But in my experience it doesn’t go further than “subtle” Once again language, yea it’s mine but it doesn’t say everything about how the desire arose If a boy starts smoking cigarettes at the age of 12 when he doesn’t know it’s addictive, gets severely addicted When he’s an adult he decides he wants to stop. He uses his willpower and he practices spiritual practices to develop mindfulness of the addiction etc Yet it still happens from time to time that he grabs cigarette. I think it’s realistic to say it’s sometimes caused by “wiring of the reward pathway “ or something. It’s unrealistic to say the self causes all action imo Agree I kinda explained my disagreements above so that connects to this I like that idea. Like purifying the psyche, that has been a priority of mine over the years. Ofc every topic one could go even deeper in…

Very cool I have also experienced positive change that I’m not sure I can take credit for because it has felt like a natural inclination for me to try to make that change. So there we are on the same page. Although I’m still not sure about this entire “role of the self” thing

I have noticed too it seems there is layers of thought. And some I am more or less aware of, some may be so subtle I don’t register it.

Nothing can prevent me from wanting to take it

Attention seems to do with pure perception (or maybe we could say having a self is like a veil over perception so it’s not fully pure, but for now we can call it the purest thing we can access) I just meant it seems sometimes the mind is active simultaneously as we move around attention Thanks for the suggestion of doing self inquiry It seems we can notice a sense of self that is not to do with the act of thinking, but rather like a presence.

@Princess Arabia Ok cool