Something Funny

@Emerald It doesn't matter how many people adopt it. I don't care about that. You are basically evaluating a philosophy by its popularity. What matters is if it's true. Is it true that having kids is unethical? I don't believe it is, but not because "it's a fringe ideology that will be ignored by people of low development". Yeah, and if they abolished slavery in feudal societies, they would also collapse, plunging into chaos. Abolishing slavery = more suffering. This shows the issue with our current economical system, not antinatalism.

@zurew ok, then we mostly agree on this, I think

@zazen get your epistemology right, then we can talk.

@zurewyou are right, I am not against violating consent in this kind of black and white way. I am also not against murder, in a principled way, by that logic. I am okay with killing a person in a bunch of scenarios. In case with childbirth, I think consent is important to consider.

@zurew when is consent necessary? How do you decide that? First of all, even in cases like asking questions, it is often considered impolite without consent. Irl, it's common to ask "can I ask you a question?" before aaking something importabt or personal. On a forum, this dynamic is different because of the format. Secondly, you could say that whether something requires consent, depends on an impact it has on a person's life. You asking someone an inappropriate question will have a much lower impact on their life then you forcefully having sex with them. All things that have a potential to seriously impact your life, require consent, even legally speaking. It's hard to find a more impactful thing than being born.

I don't even feel like spending my energy arguing with you after reading this bro-science.

@zurew this is my answer. Is consent not necessary if the experience you are about to give another person is perceived as good by you?

So in a hypothetical where you are a sex god and sex with you is a guaranteed pure bliss, is it okay for you to be raping people? This is BS and empty talk since all you have to back it up with is "I feel this way". There is an anti-natalist subreddit with over 200k people on it. You are welcome to ask there how many of them are pro killing people.

Its not about that. It's not the main premise. Some people like that life has suffering to it, so that it's not all honey and rainbows. That's what makes it living worth for them. But so what? This is their personal view on their lives. It's about consent. The child you give birth to might have a life of pure bliss or they might suffer and end up killing yourself. They might enjoy suffering or they might hate it They might not have wanted to have any experience at all. The point is that it's not up to you to make this decision. Who are you to sign up other people for all this? This is a strawman. Nobody is advocating for killing people. Nobody is even advocating for forcing people not to have kids. It's like saying that vegans want to murder all the meat eaters or that they want to force everyone into veganism using violence. No. Anti-natalism just points out issues with giving birth and is mostly being used as a personal philosophy. If you resonate with it, you are welcome to join. If not, that's your choice. It's just that most people who are against it, have no good arguments. So they must on some level know that they are choosing to just ignore being wrong and staying ignorant.

You could also use anti-natalism to argue against itself. "I was born and brought into this world without my consent. I didn't sign any contracts. So I can be and do whatever I want. I can be Hitler if I want to." Basically, at this point you are admitting that anti-natalism is mostly right in pointing out issues with giving birth, you are just correcting them in that you have no moral obligation to be good.

In what ways does it ring hollow? The main point of anti-natalism is that it's ethically wrong to have children because: 1. You are doing it for selfish reasons like: I want to have a family to make MYSELF happy, I want someone to take care of ME when I AM old, WE need to keep the economy going. None of this is about a child you are about to bring into that world. You are just using them as a means to an end, like a tool basically. 2. You cannot guarantee that the person you are about to give birth to will be happy to be alive or if they will hate it and suffer. At worst you don't care about how they will feel and if they will enjoy the experience, and at best you are making a gamble with their life, hoping that it will end up being a positive thing. 3. A child cannot consent to being born, and giving birth without consent is unethical according to anti-natalism. Taking two of the above points into an account, what makes you think that it's okay to make a gamble with someone's life, using them to fulfill your own selfish needs without consent? Do you have any valid counter-arguments to those points? In my opinion, you can only rebuke them by using spirituality. Like: "Everybody has a soul and its the soul that decides to get born" or "You are God imagining yourself being born". Or by saying that morality is relative and that nothing is really wrong. So you can use children selfishly, create suffering, and give birth without consent, and there is nothing wrong with it. Just like there is nothing wrong with genociding people. I don't think there are any valid counter-arguments from a regular, human perspective. So how is it hollow? Anti-natalism is more advanced than most people can handle. Usually, if there is a critique of it, it's a critique from below.

He is talking about ending suffering so I think he means humans dying out completely. So your points about economy or ending up like South Korea don't really matter anymore from that perspective.

Oh, but we love all the private details so much!

There is a saying in Russian: "Every joke has a bit of a joke to it", pointing out how when people joke about something, they are often uncovering their deepest believes, insecurities, emotions, etc. It's a word play on an even older saying "every joke has a bit of a truth to it".

What does compatibility mean for you?

Is this real, lol?

Probably much less then a thousand. Depends on what you mean by "meet" as well. Actually approaching someone and asking out on a date? I think you could do it under a hundred, especially if they are no cold approaches. I think it is important to remember that in the end, it is very luck based. It just depends on when you will meet the right person. She could be the 100s girl you approach or she could be literally the first. It is equally as likely. Also, remember that if someone agrees to go on a date with you, this suggests that you are already physically attractive enough for them. Maybe with some exceptions. So if she rejects you after a date it was probably either because your social skills sucked or you just didn't match personality-wise. At least that's my current opinion.

Do you think you might have gotten more out of it if you bought it for the full price and have done it multiple times over a longer period?

Does anyone here have experience with it. Does it actually help?

Where do I go?

I've basically conditioned myself that going on a date is something hard, and challenging, and scary. A hustle, necessary means to an end of getting sex / a girlfriend. Like I should put in this hard work of going on dates to receive a reward in the future. But this is so wrong! I am going to be spending time with a cute girl. We will eat together, talk, hold hands, hug, maybe something more. Isn't this amazing? I couldn't have hoped for this even a month ago. I have already won. This is it. Even if that is all there is to it and it doesn't go anywhere. Why can't I just feel the sense of achievement and excitement about it? I already have put in the work and got myself a date. This IS the reward. I should be happy and just enjoy it for what it is.

@Never_give_up just want to share my experience. I have never had a girlfiriend and I am 25. Recently , I've decided that it is time to finally start working on it seriously. And a lot has changed just from this intention to work on it. I've discovered dating opportunities that were never there before or so I thought. I went to a dating workshop and didn't get a date but had a good time with women there. I went to another dating event and got a date. All of a sudden I discovered that there is a girl at work who agreed to go on a date with me. I also signed up to acting classes and have already walked two girls from there home. Not a date but feels nice. Especially yesterday, because we had a nice vibe and I even got a hug. Notice how I didn't even have to go hardcore and start going to clubs and approach 20 women a day like pickup suggests, or anything like that. Just got somewhat more intentional and proactive.

No way its such an issue that you wouldnt be able to get a taller girlfriend

@eliasvelezok, thank you

@Rishabh Rthanks She is from my work and is super cute!