Something Funny

@Salvijus https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/20/vegan-pet-food-as-healthy-for-cats-and-dogs-as-meat-says-veterinary-professor https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0253292

What impractical levels? The only thing you came up with was pets, which I don't see the issue with as long as the animal is healthy and is getting all the necessary nutrients.

This is a dishonest way of putting it. I haven't studied the topic too deeply, but as far as I understand, there are vegan pet foods for dogs and have that have all the necessary nutrients. Force feeding is what's done to geese at factories where food is literally pushed down their throats. In this case you just give your pet his food and they eat it, willingly. For some reason, I don't see people having issue with feeding their pet your average pet food which is literally a cancer inducing garbage. That's just something you came up with. Nobody is saying that. This is debatable. Where there is will, there is a way. Many people that eat animal products could totally live on a vegan diet so it makes sense for vegans to try to reach out to those people and at least get them to try. Once again, nobody is walking around, entering houses with a gun and making people go vegan. If you want to make an argument that vegan activism shouldn't exist, I don't agree with it. Many people are in poor health and chronically ill while eating animal products, but they don't question their diet because it's a status quo. But as soon as you get sick as a vegan, everyone start to question what you eat. And lab grown meat is promising (unfortunately, meat industry is actively lobbying to ban it). If more people supported veganism as a whole, there would be more push for lab grown meat to become mainstream.

Once again, this is just something that you have imagined yourself. There are millions of vegans practicing veganism every day, making a positive change in the world. It's ironic because you are the one expecting some kind of naive utopia by saying that vegans should care about literally all death in the world, and that veganism should be practicable by literally every person in the world or there is something wrong with it. How about we do some philosophy? But real philosophy, grounded in the real world, instead of this mental masturbation. What exactly is your critique of veganism as a movement and of vegan people in terms of their actions? What would you have them do differently?

Not really, this is just something you came up with It is for many people, nobody is standing with a gun to your head telling you to stop eating meat. All this boils down to is the fact that one person is taking concrete action that lead to a better world for everyone and another is simply engaging in armchair philosophy that leads to nowhere, except to justifying further complacency and inaction.

no that's the only way we can living in alignment with your strawmanned vegan values. I have already responded so many time in so many ways to the bacteria argument, it's becoming annoying.

no wdym?

@Nemra I am tired of arguing about dying bacteria and other stuff like this, sorry.

obviously, that was a joke.

@Nemra I see killing as abuse.

@Clarence nothing too radical about it. I've been eating vegan since I wrote that post and I am doing great.

I love it when people use spirituality when it's convenient for them to justify the shit they are doing. Putin be like: death is imaginary, nowhere in the universe does it says that killing thousands of people is wrong. Distinction between a human and a bullet is a human constriction.

Yeah well, from what I've studied all of it is basically just bullshit greenwashing. There are 2 basic methods of how animals are killed in a "humane way": 1. Electrocuting them to knock them out, and then slicing their throat 2. Using a stun gun (basically a hammer propelled by air) to break their skull and knock them out, and then slicing their throat. Both methods are painful by themselves and very ineffective at actually knocking animals out. I've seen lots of videos of slaughterhouse workers having to shoot / shock them repeatedly many times for it to actually work.

1. Is it okay if I kill you in a quick and painless way? 2. Can you please explain what is this magical method of killing animals painlessly and quickly and give me an example of companies that do it this way?

@numbersinarow If you are referring to the harmful bacteria from the outside world than a better analogy would be humans killing another humans for self defence. Just like a human that doesn't eat other people, will still kill another person if they attack them. Nowhere does it say that veganism is about sacrificing your life for the sake of every other living being.

You are comparing: a) a person not willing to stop eating meat because it will be inconvenient for them b) a person not willing to literally kill themselves to save some bacteria while killing other bacteria Amazing analogy, just brilliant. In case with human body and bacteria, it is more similar to relationship between humans and their planet. In this case the body is the planet for bacteria. And them dying a natural cycle of life that the "planet" has no conscious control over. Humans and other animals in this scenario would be bacteria killing other bacteria. But I guess somehow this was a good point in your mind... Happy now? I addressed it.

@numbersinarow Oh god, you are so dumb, it's not even funny. It's not a technicality. Your whole argument hinges on an assumption that I expect some "result". I've never said that. I've said that the reason I am going vegan is because I don't want to participate in animal murder and abuse. And you can totally make an argument against it because what you are saying is simply factually incorrect and ridiculous. The idea that millions of people ceasing to consume something won't have any impact is dumb. Veganism does have an impact on reduction in meat consumption in developed countries as well as growth of plant based foods market. Even companies that produce meat products specifically, like sausaged, are now starting to branch out into plant based alternatives. The only beatdown you've done was to your already struggling brain. yes because that's much more important than being able to construct a senstence and comprehend what another person is saying... This is not an appeal to popularity. I don't care if 0 people who will read our discussion will agree with me. I am pointing out the logical fallacy in thinking that individual impact doesn't matter. It absolutely does. In 2000, the US election was decided by 537 votes in Florida, making Bush win. 1876 U.S. Presidential Election: Rutherford B. Hayes became the 19th President of the United States after securing 185 electoral votes to Samuel Tilden's 184. A single contested electoral vote played a key role in the outcome Andrew Johnson’s Impeachment (1868): The U.S. Senate fell one vote short of the two-thirds majority needed to convict and remove President Andrew Johnson. This single vote preserved his presidency I wonder how many people sat at home thinking that their vote won't matter anyway. You cannot claim that their are used in the same context here because this is my thread. I define the context of this conversation. I've literally asked for a specific thing: questioning my motivation to make me go deeper and understand it better. It's not my fault that you are derailing it. Are you also going to go to my fashion advise thread and start arguing with me about the benefits of wearing clothes vs being naked? Yes, I agree with your point on subjectivity, not how you use it. It was not said in response to anything! It was literally the main topic of this thread! I've started the whole thread with it! I didn't start this topic to argue with retards like you about veganism! What are you talking about, I literally went addressing your post by paragraph. But it doesn't it doesn't make sense. Because it is a dumb analogy. Yes it does. Because veganism is about doing things that you can actually control. Oh yeah? Please do that, I will be right after you. But we do not think about bacteria in the same way. Because these are two fundamentally different situations. You can control eating animal. You can't control eating bacteria. Animals suffer. Bacteria doesn't suffer. Meat eater keeps eating meat because he is not invested into animal wellfare enough to stop eating meat. Vegan doesn't stop killing bacteria because it is literally an impossible thing to do. You analogy sucks. If you used an analogy about slavery, it would actually be better. What is there to address? On top of it being a dumb analogy, that's not worthy of addressing, I've also never argued that other people should stop eating meat. THIS IS NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. You can it two cows per day. You can drink your own piss. You can think about animals the same way I think about bacteria. I don't give a fuck. I can't control how many cows you eat. I can only control my actions. Which is what this thread was about: how do I learn to better control my actions so that they align with my values. I am not asking you to challenge a subjective statement. This is something that you've came up with on your own. I am trying to "discredit" you because you are to dumb to even grasp what this whole thread is about. I was asking people to challenge my motivation. And look, he did, he did challenge my motivation by saying that it seems to be external vs internal, and that it requires me to think about negative things like animal slaughter vs being grounded in something positive, and is in general kind of weak. SO I GUESS IT IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE TO DO?

@ChrisZoZo chill please

Once again, literally said the opposite of everything I've been saying. Either you are illiterate or dishonest, or a bit of both.

Do you understand the meaning of the verb "to result in"? Is your english just bad? You can't say that going vegan "results in" animal slaughter, this is just grammatically and logically incorrect. And to address the actual logic behind this, this is the same dumb logic that can be said about anything: - there is no reason to not support slave labour, because there will still be slave labour. - there is no reason to vote because your 1 vote doesn't matter Yes, nothing is super impactful when it's just one person doing it. But the change needs to start somewhere. A million people going vegan totally has an impact. A million people starting to eat meat totally has an impact. Besides, just not willing participate is also a valid reason to not do something. I don't participate at street take overs and littering, it's not like I do that expecting it to stop. I just don't want to participate in your idiocracy. Which part of I DO NOT CALL MYSELF VEGAN do you not understand? What analogy? I didn't make an analogy, I stated my reason for why I don't want to eat animal products. That's my personal reason. No, I don't love them enough to go on a rescue mission for them. I never stated that I did, what are you talking about? I think there is actually some language barrier because this is just stupid. I did not establish anything with you. I am not going vegan! And I didn't ask anyone to attack anything. I asked people to question and challenge my motivation to eat a vegan diet. Where did I use the word attack? And no, I don't agree with you because you are full of shit. Where? Where did I ask anyone to attack anything? I didn't. I didn't ask people for their opinion on veganism. I didn't criticise or attack people who eat meat. I simply asked people to question my motivation and hoped to have a deep spiritual and psychological discussion about resolve and motivating yourself in a conscious, positive way. It's not my fault that none of you are capable of anything beside projecting their own bullshit onto my own words and wanting to share your mind about microbes and bacteria. @Sincerity is literally the only person who understood the assignment and actually questioned my reasons, eventually. Bacteria are not inferior. I've never said that. Once again, you are just putting whatever words are convenient for you in my mouth. And as a matter of fact, there is no reason why even actual vegans should concern themselves with bacteria dying as this is not something that you can control as a human. Veganism is about reducing death and suffering as much as you can. Expecting people to try to reduce deaths of bacteria is absurd and is literally impossible. Because not matter what you do some will die. If you keep living - some will die, if you kill yourself - some will die. The fact that you think that this is some kind of gotcha point is hilarious.

This is a common pitfall for many vegans who try to use ethics to justify veganism, yes. But then basically every philosophical system has its limitations. Just watch Leo's videos on science, post modernism, religion, spiral dynamics stages. They all have some kind of philosophical pitfall.

@Jannes Thank you. I am not okay with milk, fish, and eggs so vegetarianism is not an option for me.

@Basman not another question about plants and microbes, please. You are killing me guys. Read all my other responses to that. Sometimes I do, sometimes I try to do my best to carry them out instead. I do feel compassion towards them. And considering how I'm just trying to implement mostly vegan lifestyle, I just treat it as one of the points I am working on. I've said in my original post that I am not a vegan. Do you guys only read titles or something? I select what I care about based on carefully contemplating it. It not based on cuteness, it's based on how can I realistically minimise the suffering I cause in my life. I am definitely not okay with meat and livestock industries because they are just horrible. I don't care about deaths of bacteria killed by my body because I do not believe they experience any suffering, and even if they did, there is nothing I can do apart from dying, which will also kill a ton of cells and bacteria that used to live in my body. So this is a dumb point to make overall, it's like spending your life worrying about a blackhole appearing and sucking up the earth. For plants, please READ my previous answers. At the moment of starting this thread I was okay with ethically sourced wool and beeswax, but since I've been doing a lot of learning in the meantime, I am not so sure about those anymore. They seem shady and I need to keep researching them to come to a final decision. Now I have a question for you. Are you okay with eating people? Assuming that their life is not more valuable than lives of pigs and cows, and that you are not like those vegan hypocrites, with their selective compassion, you should be okay with eating people, right?

I was referring to numbersinarow's comment, mostly. It was a relief to see someone be on my side and bring up some good points.

@Marcel another point. Why is it that every meat product that has an animal on its packaging show a happy, healthy, animal, often drawn in cartoonish cute way? Why not show them bloody, tortured, and abused? Because the vast majority of people would be repulsed by it and not by the product. This tells me that most people see animal suffering as a bad thing when confronted with it face to face.