Jannes

True. I dont mean that these problems are easily solved but that we potentially could solve them. Thats very different from very other species on earth and completely against our paradigm of thinking.

Okay so if a complex-organizing system successfully overcomes all of its crude survival challenges, what does it do then?

Much comes from the stage orange mindset. If wealth contribution was more equal, if people lowered their living standards to the necessary, If cooperations tried to maximize their contribution instead of their income (throwing food away or building low quality products which will fall apart at some point on purpose), if more people would be more evolved and wouldnt do jobs which have no benefit on society (trading for example), if their would be less resource loss in conflict (wars), in short if we all were less selfish we would have plenty of resources to make a good living for everyone on earth I believe. People might just lack the vision how such a society could be like so they dont evolve towards making it happen.

This makes me want to experience infinite love.

Yes, what do you want to say with that?

And how have you optimized your environment? What do you work as? What's your LP?

I was also diagnosed with ADHD. Has something changed? Have you implemented some strategies?

I have come to this conclusion so far. You can be vegan for many reasons. Loving animals can be a legit reason to be a vegan but very few or maybe even no vegan is vegan completely because of this, most are because of moral reasons. Moral development can only prosper in healthy and loving circumstances so it's very elitist and even selfish when vegans moralize it to other people and therefore has a counterproductive effect. The more morally developed you are the more your love/care expands in the universe.

There are people who aren't on either side and just do both for a month for fun. Joe Rogan even did a month of vegan and a month of carnivore.

Oh I See now. I am not that well-read in neuroscience so I struggled to make the connection. Well you could switch the example out. Would you act immediately "immoral" in some way to an animal if morality was abolished for a minute.

If there were no moral obligation to not harm an animal and you still wouldn't do it then you could be a vegan without the motive being morality. That was the only point I was trying to make.

@Schizophonia I dont quite get the point.

There are often like questionnaires about different political questions you can fill out. Depending on how you answered different parties are recommended to you. Also you can see their main points on their website. You can roughly see what their intentions are through that.

Okay lets throw morality out the window for a second: Would you do eat meat then even if you didn't had health problems? If yes would you even torture/slaughter an animal yourself if there were fun aspects about it (for example you could be interested in how deep the axe penetrates the neck of a cow if you swang at it).

I meant I think that most people wouldn't want to eat meat if they were conscious enough of how eating meat causes animals to be slaughtered. Thats another great example. I think most people also wouldn't do that if they were conscious enough about it. Yes also true. At some point it becomes to complicated though.

Yes a croc cant ask itself moral question. But below that it cant even ask itself if it wants to kill the human or not. A human can. Thats the essence of Leos critique video of morality. If you stop the moral lense you still make decisions. Like if you deconstruct the moral sense that killing other humans is bad that doesn't mean that you instantly murder other people. And in this same way, without moral consideration but simply by asking yourself if you really want to do it I think most people wouldn't want to kill animals. I would make the point that most people dont want to kill animals, they just do it because they arent conscious enough.

Thats new. Why do you eat them then?

@Nemra Is survival your only criteria?

Of course you can't avoid doing some harm but you can do your best.

A croc doesnt have ethics. It's almost like asking if a rock made an unethical decision falling on someones head.

What do you mean by that? Okay. Do you take that absolute stance though? Would you say that killing and eating a human for example is indifferent from eating an apple? This sounds like impractical spiritual masturbation. I have a better way of phrasing it now: I would argue that when you open yourself to the relative domain at all, like saying that a human life has more value then a rock you are also implying a spectrum of grey where animals likely have a higher worth then plants.

Are you taking the absolute perspective that there is even no difference between killing a million people or cutting a piece of plastic, just human bias. Or am I misunderstanding what you saying? I think it's a spectrum. At the beginning of development you might only really only care about you and your tribe, then other tribes, then different races and then I would say different species. Caring for plants or rocks is probably a lot further down the line.

What about just having empathy and respect for animals because your ego is developed enough that you identify/love with all living beings. Morality is a construct but it points to something true.

How do you know that antinatalists are the majority? I think acknowledgment of our destructive ways can be good. We become so conscious of our destructive ways that we open ourselves up to change. Some people in life have to make the decision between suicide and changing themselves radically. That could be it on a more global scale.

Nice! I saw a dude once crying on a girls lab in semi public. That guy had balls as hell as I later found out. Strong guys cry like babies! I recently contemplated sighs. I had a big one a year ago in the gym. I had all this repressed energy inside me and the sigh forced itself out of me. I was embarrassed about it because other people noticed but it felt amazing.