something_else

Ehm, kind of agree. Although if you are doing a lot of work and not getting what you want out of it, it's worth being aware of what you are actually trying to achieve. I've typically taken a different approach anyway, I've never really done the hardcore pickup stuff where I'm approaching on streets, I've always viewed it as learning social skills, making friends, going to parties, clubs, bars with friends etc. More normie pickup I guess.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be annoying. There are quite a few threads from you here and I haven't actually read all of the replies to them through fully, I wasn't aware that other people had asked that already.

I didn't mean it as a judgement. More so that it sounds like you're doing well, girls are responding well to you, but it also seemed like it hadn't really gone anywhere with a girl and I was wondering why. The high standards answers that I guess. Will this be your first relationship?

I find it interesting and impressive that you’ve met so many girls recently, well done for the effort. But out of curiosity, are any of these interactions actually going anywhere? Like a phone number, date, kiss, hookup?

You end up so in tune that you know who is best suited to handling a given situation. It’s intuitive, it doesn’t always require active discussion. Think of it like sex, even dom guys typically like the girl to take control sometimes, but it’s not like there’s active discussion about it. You feel out each other’s rhythm, preferences and skills, then control naturally flows back and forth based on that.

I think that’s an assumption. I may not be right, my direct experience of long term relationships is to some degree limited, but generally my experience of the healthy relationships I’ve seen or been in is that both members take on the leadership role at different times depending on the situation. When I see meet couples where one member, man or woman, does all the talking and decision making for the other it rarely seems like a healthy and happy dynamic. When I see relationships where they bicker and tease, where one member doesn’t always just submit like a wet rag, I think those relationships actually seem a lot healthier. I think it gets tiresome to always feel like you need to be leading and in command, and it sucks to always be submissive and have no control. I don’t think it’s sustainable. Perhaps this is a unique preference of mine and not a general pattern though.

Yes, agree 100%, I think healthy relationships should be built around equality, shared values, and shared life goals. Not fucked up power dynamics

It isn’t sad, though. There is nothing sad about just wanting to have sex. Or about being a guy. The part that makes it sad is the crudeness of how some men express this stuff. The lack of calibration to others. You can express the same stuff with a touch more consideration for others around you, and then it stops being sad and starts being cool.

Yes, two. Both were pretty solid for the most part. One had mild controlling tendencies though they stemmed from abusive parents and probably anxious attachment of some kind. It wasn’t her trying to be the boss so much as her wanting my attention all of the time because she got anxious when I wasn’t around. Obviously not a super healthy dynamic which is why we broke up, but I don’t blame her in the slightest. She had a hard life. The other was super chill and one of the least controlling people I’ve ever known. I don’t think it’s true that women always try to be the boss in relationships. It definitely happens, but to claim it is the norm requires some evidence. I’ve probably seen an equal number of relationships where the man is controlling.

If you experience that with every relationship you’ve ever been in, perhaps it’s more reflective of your own personality patterns rather than those of women as a whole. Or perhaps you just got unlucky in your relationships. Either way, it’s not true that women are always controlling in relationships. Certainly nobody here is trying to take away your voice, it’s mostly just people asking you to be slightly more considerate in the way you word things, especially as a moderator. It’s really not a big request.

Yea, of course women love sex too. It doesn’t follow from this fact that it’s ‘shallow’ to call out men who call women “whales,” “ugly bitches,” “leftovers”, “resource-hoarding hamsters,”, or who claim women cannot listen properly, who reduce women’s entire value to their age, or who say that you should “fuck a woman and be done with it.” All of those are direct examples from this thread, and it’s not an exhaustive list. Reducing a call-out of this kind of language down to ‘stage green moralising from men uncomfortable with their sexuality’ is quite an egregious oversimplification. Yes, there are men who white knight and protect women just for a crumb of female attention, and I know that’s who you’re talking about here. But the fact that their defence is coming from a questionable place does not mean all men who call out poor behaviour from other men have those same motivations. Nor does it mean that all men who call it out are sexually repressed. There are valid reasons to call out shitty and harmful behaviour from other people no matter what stage of development you are at. It’s often just the right thing to do.

You’re assuming a lot about me here. I have almost no interest in ‘studying’ pickup. I think it’s a toxic culture. I live my life and have fun, party, socialise, often it leads to hooking up. There is no studying involved. I’ve actively removed several guys from my life who got into studying redpill/pickup content because that culture made them a liability to have around socially. One guy in particular ended up constantly talking about women like they were pieces of meat, saying they were “used up”, “loose”, “fishy” or “dumb”, among many other hurtful and degrading things. He actively hurt several of my close female friends who were in the same friend group through his actions and words. It is not a culture, mindset, or type of language I want to be associated with, and I feel compelled to call it out when I see it because I have seen firsthand the harm it causes. So yes, I judged him. And I am judging you and other guys in this thread who have similar mindsets. I am allowed to do that, just as you are allowed to judge me. I have made my case for why I think my judgement is justified. I don’t think you’re a bad person, perhaps I have been quite heated in my wording and I am sorry for that. Like I said, it’s something I feel quite passionate about. I don’t wish you any ill will. I just fundamentally disagree with the manner in which you, and other guys here, talk about women.

My core argument was that calling women “whales,” “ugly bitches,” “leftovers”, "resource-hoarding hamsters,” claiming women cannot listen properly, and crudely assigning their entire value according to age (among other examples from this thread) is unnecessarily degrading, and does not provide any value to the discussion. “Don’t read it” only explains how someone can avoid seeing the language. It doesn’t address whether that language is reasonable or what its negative effect on the forum’s culture is. Nor does anything you've said address that other members are allowed to critique public posts if they think the language being used is unnecessarily degrading. I don't think you've addressed the core argument at all, but several of the comments you made are personal attacks.

Calling something a lie doesn’t make it one. 1) By “policing,” I mean repeatedly attempting to delegitimise criticism by telling people not to read, engage with or judge the thread. 2) Yes, people can choose not to read it. They can also choose to read it and criticise it. You keep defending the first choice while treating the second as illegitimate. 3) Fair enough, you didn’t literally call me immoral. My point is that you object to me making moral judgements while freely judging my criticism as petty and illegitimate, which is also a moral judgement. 4) You’ve called me a masochist, implied I’m sexually unsuccessful, and suggested people disagreeing with you “don’t get laid” and have “serious troubles.” You’ve now accused me of lying and bullshitting. Those are personal attacks. You can argue that they were justified if you want, but you cannot seriously claim you haven’t made a single one.

Too much analysis? I said that a lot of the language in this thread is crude and unnecessarily insulting towards women. I don't think that requires a lot of analysis or brainpower to understand.

The irony is that you accuse me of policing the thread while repeatedly telling people not to read it, engage with it or judge it. I haven’t tried to censor anyone, I’ve expressed my opinion about the language being used. You’re defending their freedom to speak crudely while trying to disqualify my (and others) freedom to criticise it. That is far closer to policing than anything I’ve done. The same argument applies for morality too, you're essentially accusing anyone criticising crude behaviour of being immoral, which is itself acting as an arbiter of morality. Not to mention continually resorting to personal attacks instead of actually addressing any arguments or opinions.

Again, this was not targeting @Inliytened1 specifically, there are many examples of that kind of language in this thread from several different users, hence why I worded it in a general way.

It's not like those are the only examples of this kind of language in this thread, and I'm not targeting this specifically at him. It was a broader point about the language from several different people across the entire thread. I would argue that actually makes it worse, not better. If you're going to insult someone you should at least say things you'd be willing to say to their face. I do just fine, thank you very much. In fact, I've actually noticed my dating life getting significantly better as a result of viewing women as human beings and not pieces of meat. Surprising, I know.

Of course. I'm not above that. But a mindset of "I am not personally attracted to overweight women" is very different from calling someone a whale. In fact part of the reason I feel fairly passionate about this is that I used to be quite callous in the language I used to talk about women until I realised the harm it causes. I would not want people talking about me or people I care about like that. This realisation came from reading how women in places like FemaleDatingStrategy talk about men. It made me feel quite unpleasant and bitter, after which I realised that I was basically doing the same thing in reverse with how I was talking about women's bodies.

Again, there are parts of this thread that are clearly very insulting, and unnecessarily so. If someone is using terms which are both entirely unnecessary for their point and very insulting, it is hard to argue that is acceptable behaviour. You don't need to be an arbiter of morality to see that's not behaviour that should be accepted.

I'm not even sure how to approach replying to this. You called women "whales" and "ugly bitches" which is indefensible regardless of how much you comment in the high consciousness areas of the forum.

Speak for yourself

I'm not sure how that's relevant, the 'higher values' point generally applies to all sections on a forum like this, it's the whole point of being here. The dating section is the area I have the most direct experience in, hence why I spend the most time actually commenting here. I read the consciousness section but I don't have as much direct experience to draw from there so I don't comment as much.

Just because lots of people do it doesn’t make it right. Especially on a forum where higher values are generally encouraged. Care to elaborate on… why? It’s very comparable.

Day clubs are pretty comparable to night clubs. Though there are typically less people dancing, it's slightly less chaotic and social overall, and it's less common for people to hook up directly from a day club than a night club. This is because in a day club everybody still wants to spend the rest of their day doing stuff, not going home and hooking up.