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''For every Hamas member you kill how many do you create? And if you create more than you kill, you've not succeeded.'' - Elon Musk This video by the Israeli professor Sam Vaknin seems very fair and objective. Unfortunately, it seems a solution barely exists or would be hard to come to fruition.

@DawnC It's a complex situation with a long history of back and forths that will take a lot of time to delve into every detail of. I see wrongs on both sides and a just cause on both also, but for practical purposes we can either discuss the current situation going forward and the general root cause of the issue. Labels often confine us to the actions associated with those labels more than they liberate us. Labels are like psychic chains, nationalities are like psychic cages and literal interpretations of religion are like a psychic straitjacket. Each more confining, restricting and stubborn. Both parties have mutually exclusive claims to the land, divinely legitimized by their religions. It's very hard to negotiate over land that is claimed holy by both sides, especially in the case of Jerusalem and the site of Al Aqsa. Wishful thinking would be for either or both of them to discard religion and give away parts of the land, but even non religious people have land disputes. What makes it harder is that it's a small piece of land with limited resources, and we expect both parties who feel entitled to this land to negotiate over this. The peace proposals never admitted full sovereignty to the Palestinians, the security apparatus from Israels side that they insisted on setting up in Palestine feels intrusive and could at any time creep towards authoritarian - as has been confirmed by whats happening in the West Bank. This nullifies a two state solution defined by Israel that wishes to 'occupy' the Palestinian side with some form of security to thwart any future terrorism - including the plans to handle Gaza indefinetley as Netenyahu is saying. They will not be governed peacefully by a regime that just bombarded their homes and killed their loved ones. If people are tamed like animals - every movement, thought and action - they will lash out like such for the freedom to be human again. To add insult to injury, this is not only done in a random land but on their own home land which humiliates them further and only adds to an angered resistance that eventually erupts. *Solutions* Genocide by expulsion won't work as they will only plot their return from slightly further away (Egypt or Jordan), two state won't work because no side is willing to capitulate to what they feel entitlement to, one state governed by Israel won't work because they have shown to abuse their position of power by being complicit in settlement expansion and unequal rights. That leaves a one state solution ideally a secular state with equal rights for all or possibly a Lebanon style system where each side is given positions of power equally in governing the country. In practice, a quasi one state already exists with Israel controlling Gaza, and occupying the West Bank. Is it feasible though? Are both sides willing to work for this? I'm not sure after all thats happened, but if Jews are able to live within Europe and especially in Germany where Nazi's once industrially massacred them, then hopefully they can live together and put the past aside.

The ridiculous thing about the situation is that people A (Brits) gave people B (Jews) another people C's (Palestinians) land. It's like me giving away money that isn't even mine. When the British empire de-colonised it usually was giving the local people its land back, but in this particular case, it gave the land to another group and hoped for the best. This remark about why don't the many Arab states take the Palestinians in - why should they? Jordan is already a 1/3 Palestinian, Egypt has enough domestic pressure handling its own impoverished people with its limited infrastructure - and people expect to capitulate to Israel's demands and take their burden or wrong doings. Should the French go and live in Spain, or the Italians in Spain? Their European and similar after all? But that isn't the point, even among Arabs there are distinct cultures and peoples married to their geographies. Why do other people suffer (Palestinians) for others sins. It wasn't the Arabs who heavily persecuted the Jews historically, it was the Europeans and at its climax the Nazi's committing the Holocaust. The Europeans taking Israels side completely with double standards is them ridding themselves of the guilt of their past atrocities against the Jews. Most people aren't calling for the elimination of Israel - just the current form it takes in the way it persecutes the Palestinians - and to give them the rights and dignity on their own home land which they share.

It doesn't work because the Palestinian authority have held to the peace agreements since the Oslo accord and all they've got in the West Bank is increasing settlements and authoritarianism from Israel. Israel don't do anything to stop the settlements so they are complicit in them. This is what gives more authority and support to Hamas because Palestinians see the Palestinian authority as having no back bone or ability to support the rights and just cause of the Palestinians. They are left with no choice. Palestinians have tried all avenues. Proposals and deals were always unjust and didn't meet the basic requirements of the Palestinians (for example no control of their Jordan border for at least 15 years), they tried peaceful protest in 2018 with the march of return - IDF shot at disabled people, medics, journalists and children. What their left with is a violent resistance in the end. The root cause of this whole issue is occupation and hindering their development even when they aren't ''fully'' occupied - everything is controlled to the point they aren't able to develop economically, socially etc. The excuse used to stop their development is the potential for terror, yet stopping their development causes resistance to arise in the ugliest form of terror.

I wonder if any commercial interest have got to do with the dedication to take Gaza and expel the Palestinians from it - prime beach front real estate, energy sector, transport canal. https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas https://www.offshore-technology.com/news/israel-awards-gas-exploration-licences/#:~:text=Israel has awarded 12 licences,are divided into two groups. The Ben Gurion canal has to go around Gaza which is very costly. If it could cut through the North of Gaza it would save a lot of money and transport time / cost. https://www.eurasiareview.com/07112023-alternate-suez-canal-the-israeli-ben-gurion-canal-oped/

Why wouldn't they have the ability? Is it because their subhuman 'animals'? Israel can't block their economic development, and then claim that they are incapable of economic development. Then we look on from our comfortable homes and feel as if we're more 'developed' and higher up on the spiral stages than them. ''JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has cost the seaside territory as much as $16.7 billion in economic losses and sent poverty and unemployment skyrocketing, a U.N. report said Wednesday, as it called on Israel to lift the closure. The report by the U.N. Conference on Trade and Development echoed calls by numerous international bodies over the years criticizing the blockade. But its findings, looking at an 11-year period ending in 2018, marked perhaps the most detailed analysis of the Israeli policy to date.'' The claim to a land because of historic roots can be taken to any degree. For example we could all go to South Africa's gold mine region, take that land from the people and then negotiate with them on how much is fair for us to take and for them to keep - because we have a common ancestry connection from 100'000 years ago. And when they resist, especially with arms we call them terrorists and gaslight them.

@Nivsch They left in 2005 but not completely. Control of borders, air space, sea and essentials such as food/water which can be leveraged against them at any time is not completely leaving. It may not be a death camp, but its close enough to a concentration camp. You said you think the protests are waking up the world to see how violent and stupid the people within them are but its in fact the opposite. There are some extremists but that's a very small minority. The protests are peaceful and people are waking up to the inhumane conditions the Palestinians have been suffering for decades and even questioning why their governments fund/support Israel including many Jews. By law it is the occupied people who have a right to resist, even the right to armed resistance. If people want to keep going back in history to a time when their ancestors once lived in such and such land then we can all go back to many different lands including Africa where humans originated and claim all the resource riches as a bonus.

That’s disgusting of that activist to say. There’s extremists on both sides. This is what Palestinians are dealing with for example: https://x.com/subjectiveviews/status/1721372139905839306?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ The difference is the extremists on the Palestinian side are made extreme by the extreme conditions their born into whilst the extremists on the Israeli side are made extreme via culture and upbringing. The Palestinians can and are of course being raised in extreme ways also but their living conditions give birth to that extreme ideology - conditions imposed by Israel. Israelis use past extreme conditions (Holocaust and being exiled from multiple communities) in the present day where anti Semitism isn't such a big issue. The creation of a ethno-state like Israel to those hardships Jews faced was the cure, but that cure brings about its own ailments and side effects - mainly when creating it the displacement of the indigenous people and for its continued existence apartheid like conditions for the Arabs due to the fear of them resisting or what the ignorant narrative likes to call terrorism. But it’s many politicians or who have spoken in a genocidal manner. I think power not only corrupts but it attracts the most corrupt personalities from the population.

If leaders and politicians reflect the population then what about Israel’s? A democracy reflects the people more than a dictator, so Israel’s leadership is more accurately representing its people than say Hamas - among the politicians you have guys calling to use nukes as an option. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/netanyahu-suspends-israeli-minister-for-saying-dropping-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-one-of-the-possibilities-13001055 20-30% isn’t a big chunk of the population as you mention below.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyYiXStoAer/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyYiXStoAer/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://news.sky.com/story/amp/netanyahu-suspends-israeli-minister-for-saying-dropping-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-one-of-the-possibilities-13001055 https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1721239223091536228?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ Not a good look for those governing Israel

Interesting view on Zionism

Nicely put. The dynamic and act are the same, the aesthetic is different. A distinction can be made that civilizational development amplifies the tools society has (technology, weapons etc) while cultural development awakens the consciousness of the user using those tools. The problem is modernity has amplified our tools to the point they can destroy the earth, but have we awakened enough to be able to wield that power well enough. it's easy to see the shiny buildings and sophisticated military and think 'oh their developed' and equate that with moral value and development.

If Israel as claimed is the only democracy in Middle east, by the people and for the people - doesn't that represent the people of Israel? If it doesn't, then can we also say the same for the Palestinians - that Hamas don't represent the Palestinians as a whole and shouldn't be demonised or collectively punished. Should the Israeli's be collectively punished by the Muslim world for what the few politicians do or the settlers?

Members of the Israeli cabinet have said things along the lines of Palestinians are responsible sympathizers for Hamas implying they should all be dealt with - and that's in a democracy which represents the people of Israel more accurately than Hamas represents the Palestinian people. There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006, when the 2006 election took place a large portion of the population didn't vote as they were underage or just being born. Those children born in 2006 are now 18 years old and had no say in that election yet are held to account. How can people lay blame to Palestinians for electing Hamas 18 years ago when majority didn't even elect them but from the other side can't see the genocidal degrading language of the the Israeli politicians who actually were elected into power in much recent times by Israelis themselves - yet say those far right politicians don't represent them? So yes, Israel is such a 'developed' nation with more of a representative democracy - and what does that representation reflect in the politicians they currently have? I think this whole paradigm of 'less developed' and 'more developed' glosses over the fact that the same dynamics can be taking place from any level of development, just in a different aesthetic/colour. A stage red society can kill with tools, a stage orange society can also kill but with a different more sophisticated set of tools - same dynamic and act (killing) but different manifestation and aesthetic. A stage green person can be a warrior the same way a stage red person can - their just a social justice warrior, but in the name of stage green values they can carry out similar injustices as a stage red tribal warrior.

Wonder why they can just call for ceasefire and instead call for just a pause. Tomorrow Hezbollah will be making a statement - could be a big day and change the trajectory of what's to come.

They won't allow a single state, especially not after this attack. Too much bad blood and broken trust that will take generations to mend perhaps. Also, demographically Palestinians will outnumber Israeli's which in a democracy means they will start to have more representation and power eventually - the Israeli's won't allow that. A two state is difficult to achieve also due to distrust of being neighbours and the Palestinians attacking one day - as members of this forum have mentioned. In fact, it won't even be allowed to be a state in the true sense as they won't allow it control of its borders or to have a military - essentially occupation light. The West Bank which could be the Palestinians state is now full of settlers who are far right, moving them will be next to impossible, especially after Ben Gvir has armed them with guns. I understand the difficulty Israel faces in eradicating Hamas whilst not committing war crimes/minimising casualties and having the world come at them for it - but maybe this simply doesn't have a military solution but a diplomatic one. At least the most basic thing would be to lift the blockade, siege and occupation and stop funding/protecting and giving impunity to settlers in the West Bank , and holding them to account. The settlers who have killed Palestinians in the West Bank have not even been charged.

For a start not carpet bombing which has probably killed those very hostages. Not cutting of water, electricity, food etc for the civilians to suffer and the world to get more enraged. Those actions alone are sucking Israels support globally and only enraging the world further against it. Using special ops forces to go in and take out Hamas - only targeting Hamas once they get confirmation of their location. When an entire area is levelled, how can Israel claim that Hamas was in every one of those buildings including the only main bakery the Gazans were using? They should use precision strikes on key locations. If they bring buildings down to rubble, yet claim Hamas are in tunnels, that rubble has now just made it harder to get access to those very tunnels and only given more potential for booby traps and ambush spots amongst the rubble. They could establish good faith by ending restrictions and restarting the peace process.

100% Bro come on, I was at the London protest and there were no Swastikas - in fact there were plenty of Jews there. There was one guy waving a ISIS flag who discredits the whole cause though and who was rightly taken away by police and investigated. Agreeing to eliminate Hamas is different to agreeing to eliminate them in a way that causes mass civilian death or displacing over a million people. Your talking as if the people here who support Palestinians (or protestors) are calling for the destruction of Israel, when really its about calling for the existence for an Israel that treats and recognises the existence of Palestinians as equals and stops the blockade, siege and occupation. That's the thing, Hamas came into power in 2006, with no election since then. The children at the time never voted, and the babies born the year of 2006 who are now 18 never voted for them either - 50% of Gaza are under the age of 18 - yet they suffer because of falsely conflating that they voted Hamas in.

Whilst its good to not take on the identity of victimhood and embrace responsibility, there definitely are victims of circumstance that exist. Like Leo always talks about Holism and the connectivity of things, the web of life affects things and spills over to affect other areas. Gen Z who have mental health problems amounting to half of them for example, is that self induced or a product of their environment - the atomisation, loneliness and lifestyle modernity provides. It's good to embrace agency but the extreme is to take the stance of hyper agency - to believe despite any situation its all on the individual to make something of himself. The right embrace responsibility and claim to be more rational then the left, yet using rationality and the logic of cause and effect - one can establish a chain of cause and affects that leads people to dire conditions that can fracture them and cripple their development to the point that everything in their life is their responsibility is absurd, inconsiderate and inhumane. ''Critics argue that these policies have hindered the economic, social, and infrastructural development of Gaza. Some of the key ways in which Israel is accused of hindering Gaza's development include: 1. Blockade: Israel has imposed a naval and land blockade on Gaza since 2007, following the Hamas takeover of the territory. This blockade restricts the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza, severely limiting its access to essential supplies, including building materials, medical equipment, and fuel. 2. Restricted Access: The blockade and restrictions on movement make it difficult for Gazans to access markets, job opportunities, and medical care in Israel and the West Bank. 3. Military Operations: Periodic Israeli military operations in Gaza have caused significant damage to infrastructure, homes, and public services, making reconstruction and development challenging. 4. Limitations on Exports: Restrictions on Gaza's ability to export goods have hampered economic development and job creation. 5. Electricity and Water: Gaza experiences frequent electricity shortages due to its dependence on Israel for a significant portion of its electricity supply. Access to clean water is also limited. 6.Settlements and Land Seizures: The construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which are considered illegal under international law, is viewed as an obstacle to peace and a hindrance to the development of a future Palestinian state. It's important to note that these issues are deeply intertwined with the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict and security concerns. Supporters of Israeli policies argue that they are implemented to ensure Israel's security and protect its citizens from threats emanating from Gaza.''

It takes going to the extreme end of the spectrum to make a point clear. Yes, maybe the Jews would make a Singapore out of Gaza, but that would be despite their conditions, not because of them. That doesn't make the dire conditions they would have to work through right legally or morally. If one kind of people have higher IQ and are able to create something greater than those with less IQ, does that mean its just to provide that group with lesser opportunity? The West fights for equality of opportunity, not necessarily outcome, and basic human rights, whether the use of those rights results in a Singapore or a mid level Arabian town is up to the people those rights are bestowed upon. And yes, there are parts of the world where basic needs such as food, water and electricity don't exist, but that exists more so as a natural state of their impoverished circumstance and geography - not a nurtured state of affairs at the hands of men imposed on them.

If the Amish started to get prosecuted savagely for their unorthodox way of life, and they were then sent to modern day Israel (their prophets birth place - Jesus) as a safe haven, they then started to grow in number and fight against and eventually subjugate the Jewish Israelis and put them into ghettos and into an apartheid like system - then the Jews would revolt, as they did in the Warsaw ghetto uprising against the Nazi's, would that revolt be justified? The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was a heroic but ultimately tragic event during World War II, in which Jewish residents of the Warsaw Ghetto in Nazi-occupied Poland rebelled against the German forces.

@Something Funny @DawnC From time stamp 3:23 on discusses this very predicament - if Hamas / terrorists were in Israel, would 80 civilian causalities be killed as collateral damage to target 1 terrorist. Also, the video of Palestinians celebrating the breaking of the fence-border isn't necessarily them celebrating Hamas terrorising Israel - they didn't know at the time what was going on even. Their celebrating for the first time seeing the prison walls coming down - if you've been trapped and born in one who wouldn't? It's the same way people equivocate Palestine protests as a protest for Hamas, and getting scared 'oh look how many terrorist supporters there are in our Western lands.' Too easy to conflate. The law of distinction in warfare is completely getting overlooked in Israels actions. Special ops are there for a reason and aren't being used, instead bombardment of half of the little land Gazan's had left, in fact the only thing they had left as refugees were their homes, even that is taken away from them. And Israeli's think this is going to make them safer? These bombardments are barely getting to Hamas, their in the tunnels waiting it out for Israel to come in and be trapped. Small groups of IDF soldiers are going in. Yesterday members of the Knesset were crying at the losses they suffered already, and that's before a full invasion has even started.

@Gennadiy1981 I'm guessing it's a mixture of wisdom passed down from the ages, common patterns that are observed in nature, vagueness and self fulfilling them. Patterns such as that the region of Persian has been home to great civilisations before. Vagueness because Gog and Magog could be interpreted to be anybody if talked about vaguely. Self fulling because the prophecy themselves influence our behaviour towards them, making something abstract into something concrete. Past historical description shouldn't need to be made present day prescription, but people who take it as such make it more a probability than a possibility.

The true axis of evil is the perverted versions of power, profit and prophecy meeting together in this Israel/Palestine situation. The power-profit-prophecy complex. The problem is that the incentives of power (geopolitical), profits (military industrial complex) and prophecy (religion) are dangerously converging. Power and profits have converged before with religious undertones, but this convergence is on the holy land itself in which all three Abrahamic faiths prophesize their end times. Location, location, location.. The ignorant take end time prophecies that are myth as literal, and self fulfil them into existence to hasten whatever good they are promised from it (coming of a Messiah and the return of Jesus). Many problems stem from taking myth that is fiction for a fact that is literal, not realising that the value of fiction is in its functionality, rather than its factuality. Many problems further stem from viewing prophets as the spokesperson of God, rather than the spokesperson on God. Speaking on current events becomes important when the current events at play are such currents that risk the potential to drown all that is precious to us.