zazen

Turbulent times for sure. Population collapse, domestic civill fracturing and atomisation, AI, economy and income inequality, environmental degradation, degenerate culture, woke mobs and cancellation, dating crises, social media echo chambers, materialism. A question I ponder is if to have kids or not, that is if your in a relationship. But even if your not and your dating, thats something you will eventually face or a woman will eventually question you on and something you can't mislead her on or waste her time with. What makes it harder is if you are already in a relationship but uncertain on whether to have kids in this world or not as it robs the woman of something they mostly desire. I highly doubt the world will end or an all out war will take place, but living standards and instability looks to be a regular part of the coming decades until a new system is figured out. A useful video from Teal Swan on dealing with uncertainty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6cMH9Mqi60&t=923s

Thats the source of the problem, occupation. Power corrupts, but persecution of people by the hands of power (in this case Israel) corrupts those very people to become terrorists. Its impossible to bomb a ideology of resistance, out of existence - except to allow them the right to self determination and their own state. Leaving Gaza isn't an appropriate response when it is still under siege and West Bank is continuously being occupied via settler annexation. Israel leaving Gaza was like the guards leaving the prison but still keeping the people in one with the doors locked. Allowing them their own state is seen as a threat - this is why a two state solution isn't allowed to happen - because either side aren't trusted to be neighbours. But neither is a one state solution feasible from the looks of it - just going by the example in West Bank it doesn't seem they can coexist, and the existing arabs in other parts of Israel have new laws from the far right government coming for them eventually. On top of this, Palestinians will outnumber Israelis sooner or later which will cause rising tensions. Its a tricky situation. The existing West Bank has settlers in the number of 700'000 so even in a two state solution, that would mean them leaving which will be very difficult. The two state solution has been given lip service while settlers keep coming and everyone knows that this just makes it impossible. The borders of neighbouring countries that don't trust each are known as fault lines, and that is just a reality that needs to be lived with in the end maybe. Ukraine/Russia, Pakistan/India etc. That seems to be a better solution than to have an apartheid architecture set up that the world condemns and is against in the 21st century - and to have the continuous threat of resistant terrorism renewing itself.

@Nivsch Why aren’t you able to respond to my questions? Don’t be blind to Israels war crimes and shortcomings the same way the deranged are blind to Hamas’s. By the definition of what a terrorist is, isn’t what Israel is allowing to happen via the settlers in the West Bank a terrorist act? Do you condemn terrorism, whether it’s done by a organisation (Hamas) or by a state (Israel)? People criticising Israel isn’t in most cases people criticising the Israeli people - the same way the world criticises the US government and its foreign policy which isn’t the necessarily the people of the US. People shouldn’t personalise criticism of their state.

@Breakingthewall @Nivsch Conspiracy requires competence and governments are full of incompetence. Israel and Bibi were in the midst of political crises before the attack, with protests every week and opposition to judicial reforms which were to be made to protect himself from corruption charges and a life time in prison. Not to mention the increasing powers which would give them power to discriminate against local arabs and further annex land in the West Bank - in fact thats where a lot of the security focus shifted as settlers and settler violence was increasing. Hamas was opportunistic, as is the Isreali government in response to the attack and doing what they always do according to their Dahiya doctrine which is to use disproportionate force. Theirs a difference between orchestrating events and being opportunistic with them. When powered elites react to events its easy to jump to the point that they created those very events as a pretext (ie problem reaction solution) when in a lot of cases it is just that a pretext is given by events playing out the chessboard of geopolitics.

@Nivsch ”The Dahiya Doctrine violates two cardinal principles of International law: The Principle of Distinction and the Principle of Disproportionality… civilians cannot be targeted by armies.” ”The United Nations commissioned a fact-finding mission known as the Goldstone Report, which concluded that the Israeli strategy was "designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population." So to minimise IDF casualties it is justified to flatten an already small strip of land with a population density higher than Tokyo, comprising of over 1 million children ( including destroying critical infrastructure such as hospital and their last major bakery ) and further to cut them off from essentials like food water and electricity. The fact that the US had to step in to pressure Israel to allow aid to those people and stay within international law is embarrassing for the optics of Israel. Even if this 'war' passes, Israel itself is domestically fractured. Even disregarding Gaza, Israels treatment of the West Bank is also atrocious - how is that explained?

Google definition of terrorist: a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Whether state, organisation or solo actor - it’s clear, just a matter of scale and propagandised white washing and hypocrisy from Western governments. Even if we disregard Gaza, what’s happening in West Bank falls under that category - and Hamas don’t even run the show there! Israel’s Dahiya doctrine The strategy itself calls for the deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure in order to induce suffering and severe distress throughout the targeted population. By targeting indiscriminately, the IDF hopes to deter further military attacks against Israel, destroy its enemies, as well as influence the population to oust the militants seen as the primary target. The IDF has planned on using the strategy since 2008, and is seen as doing so in the current conflict in Gaza based on the increasing number of civilian casualties. https://m.jpost.com/features/front-lines/the-dahiya-doctrine-fighting-dirty-or-a-knock-out-punch “”The Dahiya Doctrine violates two cardinal principles of International law: The Principle of Distinction and the Principle of Disproportionality… civilians cannot be targeted by armies.” ”The United Nations commissioned a fact-finding mission known as the Goldstone Report, which concluded that the Israeli strategy was "designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population." The international law professor Richard Falk has described Israel's Dahiya Doctrine "not only an overt violation of the most elementary norms of the law of war and of universal morality, but an avowal of a doctrine of violence that needs to be called by its proper name: state terrorism." Theirs a difference between defence and ‘deterrence.’ The definition of defence can be more concrete, whilst deterrence can be stretched out to include civilians and a disproportionate use of force .

The question is what caused them to do that in the first place? If people in the developed west can be sick enough to become serial killers imagine people born into hell, living adjacent to a heaven that could’ve been theirs. To your question - as a nation state wishing to not isolate itself from the world order eliminate the threat in the short term within keeping to international law. In the long term rectify the root causes. War is a fact of world affairs and will be for a long time, the key is it’s regulated. Bombing entire cities will only bombard you with the problem as it crops back up in vengeance - especially if the underlying causes aren’t fixed.

- Can you elaborate on this ‘substantial’ power? Sure, not ‘absolute’ but if 95% controlled ie limited that’s still bad. According to free market capitalism the movement of goods and services is required for growth, is this freedom allowed to them? - That’s how the world works, you violate international law you get condemned or penalised. Israel is lucky they only get the former in lip service and protests but never get held to account by law. - Isreali propaganda perpetuates this victim mentality and ‘threats’ from all around to be used as a pawn for US foreign policy. Bibi has used it to play the strong man saviour and embolden the far right. That narrative would crumble with the Arab world normalising ties. - Responsibility lies upon those that have the power to respond. Power they’ve been deprived of. What else are they to resort to? PLO are in pocket with Isreal, the Palestinians deferred to extremists as a last resort to get them out of their predicament. When they tried peaceful protests such as the March of return women and children got their kneecaps blown.

@Vrubel The Hamas attack is a symptom, so is Hamas. The cause is occupation, siege and blockade of a people - not to mention the humiliation of it being done to them on what was once their land and the violation of international human rights. Israel breaks international law again and again with impunity that no other country has been able to get away with. The goldstone report caused huge uproar against Isreal finally. Bibi said the three greatest threats to Israel were Iran, Hamas and the goldstone report shifting the worlds perception on Israel. But Richard Goldstone backtracked on the report - most likely due to blackmail via Mossad and vilification by Isreali politicians which green lighted Isreal to continue on as always. But the world is different today. With social media things are much more out in the open and the truth of the situation is validated by the worlds protests which makes it evident that Israel is in the wrong. Time for accountability is here, Israel isn’t special and should follow international law. If this ‘war’ passes, it will face its own internal war. This attack has fractured an already disunited Isreali society.

@Happy Lizard Disproportionate force is literally within a protocol called Dahiy doctrine. From Wiki: The Dahiya doctrine, or Dahya doctrine,[1] is a military strategy of asymmetric warfare, outlined by former Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of General Staff Gadi Eizenkot, which encompasses the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of regimes deemed to be hostile as a measure calculated to deny combatants the use of that infrastructure[2] and endorses the employment of "disproportionate force" to secure that end

@Vrubel Norman Finkelstein is worth listening to. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6w249X-uaxQ&pp=ygUcTm9ybWFuIGZpbmtsZXN0ZWluIGludGVydmlldw%3D%3D Power corrupts, but persecution by the hands of the powerful also corrupts those being persecuted. Definition of terrorist: a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Now apply that at scale and you can see there exists such a thing as a terrorist state ie Israel. Even if we leave aside Gaza - what’s happening in the West Bank is against international law, intimidating, inhumane, and in pursuit of political aims especially emboldened by Ben Gvir who was once a pariah of Isreali politics and even rejected by the IDF for how radical he was. And West Bank is supposedly where Palestinians were supposed to live peacefully or “coexist.” Just so you know, I condemn the Hamas attack - but I also condemn the conditions that brought it about, including those who orchestrated those conditions.

Sam and Eric over intellectualised and got nowhere. Rationality is good but in over doing it you ration away the essence of the thing itself. Interesting analysis from Scot Ritter (ex marine corp) https://x.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1715620378520035510?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ

After this ‘war’ Israel will face its own civil unrest, it’s a divided country due to the far right and new laws/powers. A few points that could have led to the Hamas attack - The IDF got complacent and their focus was on the West Bank due to increasing settler violence ( why it took hours for them to get to the south ) - Jewish holiday so a lot of Israelis were possibly distracted - Hamas was losing in the approval polls of Gazans, big drop in approval in the past 2-3 years - this attack would re-establish their dominance. - Saudi (the leader of the Sunni Islamic world) normalising ties with Israel and looking towards the Abraham accords which sidelines the Palestinians - they couldn’t allow this to go ahead. - Bibis judicial changes and more of far right government forming with increased powers for laws to be used to discriminating against Arab Israelis and increase settlements further. The Hamas attack was awful. Just imagine - these guys were literally born into an open air prison, never stepped outside of their walls, no work or economy or hopes. Just pacing back and forth figuring a way out, and being told of the history that this was their land a century ago and now they’re literally treated as subhuman on it. Then you take sentences out of the Quran and interpret them in a way to divinely legitimise their pain and villanize the Jews. The moment they escape from their slavery, they see people partying rite on the border, nice homes and clean streets - a life that could have been theirs. Then they remember their brothers, sisters, mothers or father who were killed by the IDF, and vengeance and barbarity take them over. Do you condemn the Hamas attack? Everyone’s asking this as if to insult peoples moral compass and establish a moral high ground. Of course most sane people condemn it. What should further be condemned however, is the conditions that caused it and to emancipate the Palestinians from their suffering. Theirs a difference between peace and liberation.

@Yousif 100% Religions are almost like cultural flavours. Whichever one you enjoy to participate in or are born into, you only maintain it as to maintain a diversity of culture that make the world richer. All religions speak to the of the same God / Life but differ in their paths / Lifestyles to that God. It's like the saying, before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water. You could still participate in religion but internally your experience of it will be totally different to others who mostly aren't practicing it the way you are. What they take as literal, you take as mythical, what you take in their religious texts as descriptions of the history in which their religion unfolded they take as divinely legitimised prescriptions.

Yes, due to many factors. A big one was simply due to the empire collapsing just as with Rome - political instability and external forces like Crusades and Mongol invasions disrupting their scientific and culture centres. Also, a famous theologan Al-Ghazali critiqued aspects of greek philosophy and science which were being translated and interpreted through an Islamic lens which aided in leading to them discounting interpretations of the Koran. Islam contributed immensely to western enlightenment - Greek and Roman texts were preserved, translated and built upon and philosophers like Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd reintroduced Aristotoles work to the West.

This is a good short excerpt from a talk on Islamic law and interpretation regarding extremism. Most muslims condemn the Islamists and say that what they are doing isn't true Islam - thats muslims I personally know in the UK, USA and across the middle east. I'm born and based in London and have friends from all backgrounds, mingled with them and travelled widely and come from a partial muslim back ground myself also just for context. There are extremist elements for sure, but it isn't the majority. They prey on youth through the shisha cafe culture, discussions on Islam and charismatic speakers talk about the glory of Islam and distort things.

Some Israeli's don't put value on Palestinian life though. Even beside the Hamas attack which was horrific and Gaza, how can Israel explain the injustice in the West Bank? You don't think Palestinian's in Gaza who have literally been born into hell and aren't allowed to even leave without getting sniped, get furious at the increasing settler activity that happened especially this year, which lead them in rage to retaliate the only way they can. And the first thing these 'animals' see is exactly that what you mention, a quality of life, Israeli's partying and enjoying life right on their fence/border whilst their imprisoned in what used to be their land also. Imagine the humiliation and degradation that would make them feel. Im not justifying what they did, but analysing and explaining their state of mind. Too many people decontextualise an isolated event, act or behaviour.

@Breakingthewall Their was plenty of contextualisation and scholarship in Islamic history which made it a more reasoned religion and a thriving progressive one at its time, and plenty of interpretation (tafsir). Certain schools and strains of Islam which are very simplistic in understanding became popular and promoted heavily across the muslims world - particularly Wahhabism through petrodollar wealth that landed upon the Saudi's. That, along with Western funding to fight against the soviets and the subsequent war on terror and destruction in the region further radicalised them. They were armed with a radical mind, now they had a justification to take up arms in service of their ideology. They politicised and militarised religious dogma. The radicalising of the average muslim is very over blown however. Even at the height of ISIS, from the UK for example which as a muslim population of 3 million, the max estimate for ISIS fighters who had gone was 1'500. Thats 0.05% of muslims, that get major representation in the media as equivalent to the muslims living in the West. Wiki'' A more accurate source from the BBC estimates around 850 people from the UK had traveled to Iraq and Syria to support or fight for jihadist groups'' year 2014.

@Maximilian Both sides are being radicalised. Extremist strains of any religion or ideology divinely legitimise un-divine distortions of that religion or idea. How is what is termed as an 'open air prison' supposed to get their shit together and develop when blockaded? Al Jazeera : ''The siege has led to shortages of basic items such as food and fuel. It has also stymied Gaza’s potential for long-term economic development. Chronic problems, such as access to education, healthcare and clean water, have become more pronounced.'' Those aware of spiral dynamics like us on this forum can easily fall into pigeon holing a entire population to certain developmental stages simply due to their leadership, and conflate development of different domains ie if their not developed politically (ideally democratic) that means they aren't developed morally (thus savages) and then we like to view ourselves in the West as morally superior. The ego can use integral philosophy and spiral dynamics to discriminate in self aggrandisement instead of discern the nuances of it. If Hamas are terrorists then they would surely terrorise their own population into submission thus rendering election invalid - so they don't represent their population in the truest sense. By that logic, democracy represents the people more closely in which case the USA doing its regime change around the world and dropping atomic bombs in Hiroshima is representative of its population being morally corrupt and at a lower stage of development than what is advertised. If a person with stage orange/green psychology was put under condition such as the Palestinians you don't think they could act out the same? The conditions can supplant and corrupt the state of conscience of that person, but we view them as 'less developed' in consciousness. In an earlier post Leo mentioned what makes them (Hamas) savage and barbaric is not what they do or how many they kill (quantity) but how they kill (quality). Beasts eat, man dines - beasts copulate, man makes love , same act but imbued with a conscience quality separates man from animal. These acts don't however fall under the moral sphere as heavily as killing do because they don't violate the do no harm principle. Killing is killing, whether done barbarically or in a sophisticated manner as drone attacks. The aesthetic difference doesn't make the act more or less moral, or the people committing it more or less 'developed.' We can be developed or not in different domains - the West's culture seems to be degenerate to the rest of the world and vulgar (Cardi B, promiscuity etc) - should that be equated with the Wests level of moral development also? Because a lot of the world view it as such and make the same mistake of equating the two - the same way we in the West equate the peoples of a region with their despotic leaders - who in fact are coup d'etat'ed into power and kept their by the West to serve industrial interests.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

The progressive ''development'' of civilisation is conflated with culture or state of consciousness. Civilisation is about tools, that which is wielded. Culture is of consciousness, the wielder himself. Civilisation is about achievements, quantitative. Culture is about awakening, qualitative. What good is it to perfect the tool wielded in the hand when that hand be shaky of what it holds and worse, malevolent with it. A ''developed'' and ''modern'' nation has more powerful and sophisticated tools at its disposable to misuse its power and propagandise its people. Corruption is finite in its goodwill, but infinite in its will to disguise itself as good, and a nation with more power will exercise its malevolence in more covert ways that blind us to it. What we call democracy is really a Ethnocracy. In the same way spiral dynamics makes a distinction between waking up and growing up, I think their needs to be made a distinction between civilisation and culture. Civilisation develops power, culture inculcates a state of being worthy of having a prowess of that power. Less developed people don't mean less developed in heart or good conscience, but in the physical sphere of quantitative power and technology - but we equate the two. The fear is of Palestinians getting revenge on Israel for the past. It depends on what sort of Islam is predominant, but the extremist strains of it have been funded by the West and radicalised to the point that now Muslim countries aren't even trusted to have strong military capabilities. Real cluster fuck of a situation. Of course, if the muslims de-radicalise and embrace the more liberal versions of Islam as practiced before that gave birth to the golden age then there would be no worries. But all this regime change crusade around the middle east and war on terror propaganda to demonise a Islam has only made it worse and inflamed divisive religious lines.

Whether it was IDF or a Hamas misfire - to get to the bottom line of something the whole page needs to be read ie context. The context of why there is this conflict in the first place.

? Israel is isolating and villianizing itself on the world stage all by itself. Suicide by arrogant stupidity.

The global south condemns Isreal barring India except the 200million+ Muslims. Latin America also - look at what Colombia has said. Now Canada has condemned the attack as a war crime, Turkey condemned the Hospital attack to which Israel has called its citizens to leave immediately in a childish reaction. They act like an arrogant narcissist on the world stage. This is what Hamas wanted, objective achieved.