zazen

I will do a gratitude meditation with just that in mind but would like to point out also to Israel and any Isrealis to be grateful to have allies and friends that come to you with good intentions and are not rolling and drowned in the emotions your people are under that blinds your bloodshot vision and fogs your brains in the fog of war. It can take a dispassionate look at the problems of reality and your situation to come to the most compassionate solution for all - though those busy in vengeance and war will reframe this otherwise. When Isreals foot reflexively straightens and pushes down on the accelerator of retaliation and revenge locked into place - be grateful for that friend who will come to dislodge your foot and push down the brake to stop your nation and peoples going off the cliff that you not only drag yourselves off of but the regions - maybe even the world, including that very friend.

People with different intentions will call for a ceasefire. They could just want genuine peace and to stop innocent lives being lost, they could be Hamas supporters that want them to have some breathing space to regather and re position strongly to counter Israel or they could genuinely see that this non stop destruction Israel is committing is actually the real threat and loss of security for Israel. As can be seen from todays news from Biden and as Osama Bin Shapiro's love letter stated - Israel can't afford to lose its main or only ally in a region it can't afford to be lonely in. The same day Biden says that Bibi can’t deny a Palestinian state the Israeli ambassador says no to one.

Think this one, I’ll add some more videos maybe you aren’t used to seeing due to algorithm and echo chambers. Excuse the captions as obviously people post them with anger and hatred but they still show things words can’t describe or that aren’t trusted.

Advisor to Defence Minister Gallant, former head of National Security Council and former IDF operations chief Giora Eiland, 21 November: “Our mistake is that we accepted the American narrative, which is false, that says in Gaza we have—what? The Hamas, which are very bad people—kill them. And next to them there are two million poor good people, and they should be cared for. Not just not kill them, but also that [Israel) should make sure they have water and food and medicine and even fuel to operate their electricity and sewage systems and other things. That’s a very severe mistake. Wars aren’t won when you kill the last of the combatants of the other side. Wars are won when you collapse an adversary system. The weakness of the adversary system [in this case] is not on the military side—Hamas’s military [branch] is very strong, very organised, very well equipped, and the tunnels give [them] very very very significant ability and durability.” Interviewer: “So what are you saying, that we shouldn’t care about what happens to civilians in Gaza, that it shouldn’t be a consideration of Israel [in the fighting]?” Eiland: “No, not that we shouldn't care—we should care [and make sure] that there is a severe humanitarian disaster there, and severe epidemics, and horrible pressure, and cries to the sky—because that's how wars are won” Interviewer: “These are not things I've heard from you in the past” Eiland: “These things are a necessity of reality. Israel is in no less than an existential war…” Interviewer: “Right, but how does a humanitarian disaster in Gaza serve Israel’s interests?” Eiland: “A humanitarian disaster is the only way to bring about the end of the war in a desirable way. Think about it this way: the poor women of Gaza, who are they? They are the mothers and sisters and wives of the Hamas murderers. Gaza’s system, unlike [its characterization by the US which I mentioned earlier] that there is Hamas and there are civilians—it is not true! Gaza is a state that is entirely united around its leader and its ideology for 15 years, without any dissent and with enthusiastic support…. The weak point [of Gaza] is their civilian population, and when it cries to the sky, maybe Sinwar, who is a psychopath, won’t be interested. But the thousands of Hamas terrorists, whose mothers and wives and children who will start suffering from severe illnesses, are the point of weakness. If we want to win the war—that’s how you win a war”

And that's people who are on this forum exposed to Leo's body of work and self development, non duality and love etc lol

@Nivsch Yes, it’s important to look into why the proposals for a state have been rejected. This post covers some of it.

Just entertainment and some intellectual stimulation at this point lol. Despite the lack of good faith and respect for Palestinian life some decent rebuttals and points are made which I welcome to expand my understanding.

I don’t deny the atrocities or suffering of October 7th. Let’s just not deny what caused that to happen and will continue to make happen if the root cause isn’t fixed - which you think is partly Islam and Palestians ‘self - tyranny’. Even if they do self-tyrannise themselves as you say, why further tyrannise the poor guys on top of it then. Give them a break, give them a chance, give them a state so they can go tyrannise themselves in it and away from Israelis but no - Eretz Israel belongs only to the chosen people. Maybe you’re not exposed to opposing viewpoints as you live in Israel and within an echo chamber of pro Israeli media. So hearing others views here is like sandpaper to your worldview and it stings to hear but it’s important for Israel’s own good to not become insular and entitled to their vengeful actions. Israel apologists who are obsessed with Israel’s right to self defence don’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress - though they deny occupation and oppression even occur.

1/2. Depends how old the videos is - before or after blockade. Regardless - it was a relatively nice place and some aspects remain or look nice despite Israel’s blockade and siege because it’s been a hub of trade and commerce for Paleatianians for a long part of their history - a history you deny. So your claim for them to be useless and not ‘builders’ of anything is false then? So they’re not ‘cancers’ on earth? The fact they’ve maintained whatever they had despite Israel’s blockade and siege is due to their creativity and adaptability. 3. Of course 1 is too many and the suffering is valid. I’m not denying atrocity. But exaggerating them and blasting claims to demonize Palestinians to such an extent as to justify Israel’s actions is where the problem lies. It’s the same with the incubater baby hoax that would secure US support to get involved in the Gulf war. The daughter of a Kuwaiti ambassador to the US made claims of babies being unplugged from incubators and left to die - actual babies have been deprived of resources needed to sustain incubators in Gaza which have been documented in recent weeks. IDF and Israel isn’t a trust worthy authority as they’ve been caught out lying many times in the past and including during this war. It’s frankly embarrassingly - to the point my Israeli friends feel embarrassed to even associate with Israel. Social media has made their propaganda much harder to work. 4. Over half the people alive today didn’t vote for Hamas as they weren’t born or just children - children you said you don’t care die so why should anyone listen to you when your coming from such a extreme place of bias. You think you support Israel but you do them a disservice by your comments as people see them and associate Israel supporters with your sentiments - which are extreme. They didn’t vote for them to ‘kill’ but to govern and resist as they had the most back bone to do so - they didn’t have much choice at the time to emancipate themselves with. Would Nelson Mandela be deemed a terrorist today for freeing his people? So if Americans vote in their leaders and America goes to war and kills people the American people are held accountable and by your logic deserve collective punishment? They weren’t necessarily cheering the massacring of people although sure some were and that’s sick. But to them what it symbolises was breaking free of Israel’s grip and boot on their necks. They were born into a place they could never leave or were heavily restricted from on the Egypt side. Work permits given in the later years only represent less than 1% of the population and then again - only to benefit Israel as they need the labour, not out of some benevolence. 5. If you claim to believe in the law of cause and effect then look at the cause and effect of October 7th - even if it shatters your world view. 6. It was just self created bro

So people who build less than other people are a ‘cancer’ on this earth? So holding a population captive for 18 years in dire conditions even before October 7th isn’t collective punishment? In the words of Norman Finkelstein “Palestinians have a right to hate the people that destroyed their lives” We can admit atrocities were done on October 7th, maybe not to the extent that’s been propagandised such as 40 beheaded babies and the like as those stories have been retracted on and no evidence shown. For the mass rape Israel denied any investigation because they deem UN anti semitic and even buried the burned cars because it would incriminate the IDF in the level carnage they did and killed their own people on October 7th also. So draw the distinction that Palestinians are not Hamas terrorists - yet you say they should be collectively punished? October 7th is a self created reality then lol this is when law of attraction and spirituality is taken to absurd degrees. Zionist memes trying to “debunk” this fact of the Nakba often begin their population tables after 1948. The term Nakba is even legislatively banned from Israeli school textbooks. And no this wasn’t sourced from a ‘untrustworthy’ antisemitic source but from Jewish virtual library - but you’ll probably just call them self hating Jews. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present?utm_content=cmp-true

@Lila9 You can’t even answer the question, you just deflect and aren’t open to others views. Not even discussing just emoting. You still think I’m an Israeli hater or anti semitic even after I’ve said I believe in Israel’s existence and defence of itself, just not the way it currently exists or is defending itself. If you keep getting beat up to the point you end up at the hospital and one of your friends asks what happened? How did you end up in hospital? Then another friend comes and says ‘hey that doesn’t matter, what matters is how is your life at the hospital, are they treating you well?’ How ignorant would that be? That’s how it sounds when someone asks how were Palestinians made refugees and you respond by asking how are they being treated in there places of refuge. Im surprised how well Israeli propaganda has worked on Israelis and how the centre of gravity has moved right. The responses confirm what Gideon Levy says. You only have to let Isreal apologists speak to reveal themselves. @BlueOak Great observation regarding both right and left not being happy with the consequences of Israel’s actions ie more refugees.

So how were all these Palestinian refugees created?

Yes, they may have started that way but don’t stay that way - as occupations - especially not in the modern world where standards have changed. So how long will it remain so and how does it end? With ethnic cleaning so there’s no one left to occupy or equal rights on one land or giving Palestinians a viable sovereign state that meets the international standards of one which every previous offer hasn’t and for that reason they are rejected. We are on the same page as in we both want peace and Israel to exist - the difference is in how you think you get to peace and the current strategy you think brings peace maybe doesn’t. Israel’s trying to answer a political problem with a military solution. As you refer to Hamas as a virus - it seems the current vaccine of disproportionate warfare being used against this 'virus' will not be effective. People oppose the remains of historical oppressive systems, discriminatory practices, and a security apparatus established during the founding of Israel or any nation with messy foundations as these remains are viewed as lingering traces of that initial colonialism or birth of that nation. The remains of past colonialism that are unjust can't exist in a post colonial world just as the unjust parts of religion and tradition can't exist in a post religious and post traditional world.

@Vrubel @Nivsch @hundreth @Lila9 and anyone else who enthusiastically supports Israel. A love letter to Israel (with humour, hope and good faith) - Osama Bin Shapiro Speaking on being strategic and whats in Israel's best interest. It's probably in Israel's best interest to not take their cue from America in how to deal with the war on terror through bombardments. A chihuahua can't learn from and act like the Pitbull that claims to have its back. America has a geography blessed with vast seas on its sides, a ally to its North and a weak neutral nation to its South that geopolitically insulates it from its foreign adventures. It can go around bombarding regions and barely have any repercussion - Europe bears the brunt of the cost via the refugee crises caused by these wars. I would offer my cousin Aladdin's flying carpet for escape but your state carpet bombed it. First, make sure not to deny the facts corroborated by international state bodies and human rights organisations on Israel's situation. Move the sideburn curls away from the ears and listen to the world. What you deem labels such as occupation, apartheid lite and discriminatory security structures are realities for millions of Palestinians. Occupation doesn't mean the most literal definition of the word like when you go to the toilet it says occupied by someone sitting on it - Israeli's don't have to be sitting on Palestinians laps in Gaza eating Baklava to claim occupation or defecating on their land - they can be occupied externally by controls of their border, sea and airspace depriving, dehumanising and un-dignifying them. Israel should avoid being duped by neo con evangelical interests who portray themselves to be on Israel's side but fill their pockets from war profits at the cost of Israeli/Palestinians filling their graveyards with bodies and who's pockets are filled with nothing, but instead get eviscerated by the burns from bomb blasts and the white phosphorus that US provides Israel. Deep down they wish to see their demented prophecies of Armageddon and the return of Jesus manifest - like wise for the fundamentalists of Judaism and Islam of which the former wants to hasten the Messiah and the latter their Mahdi for the 'great battle' after which Islam prevails. Israel acting the way America does in response to 'terror' endangers it in a way America acting that way doesn't. Israel sits by itself in a angered region. Israel's actions have enraged the Global South and domestic Westerners which are its own allies. Even Western media outlets critique Israel's actions as they are unable to keep up with propaganda that gets shred by the advent of social media and alternative media. Their are limits to Americas interests - they can't just bankroll the expulsion of 2.3million people and destruction of their homes with the current technology that allows the world to see it and feel it. It's not just the scale of destruction (more than 50% of homes destroyed) and civilian death (children and women) but the timescale of it (in the span of 2 months) that puts this conflict in a terrible light and moral standing for Israel. Israel are losing the sympathy of the world in real time - it may think it can win the battle but definitely not the War. Footprints disappear but good luck dealing with the digital footprint of massacre that don't as easily for decades to come and the constant hostility that brings with it globally - but we're meant to think this onslaught makes the Jewish diaspora feel safer. ''Western public has lost all its appetite for war. All the careful sanitising, video-gamifying and propagandizing that has been put in place since Vietnam in order to build a platform of consent for “humanitarian” wars has cratered into nothing. You can’t have a up close screening of the reality of bombs and all the things they do to human flesh and then go back to the way you were ever again. Millions of western eyes have been changed forever.'' Those to whole evil is done, do evil in return. Israel not only defends itself but has the strategy to establish deterrence capacity - deterrence by definition is supposed to be disproportionate to scare off / terrorise hostility (de facto terrorism in policy) but only causes further hostility and terrorism. Deterrence through strength means being strong, not necessarily flexing that strength on your neighbours like a narcissistic school bully which radicalises them towards you. If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. Resistance movements are built on the blood of martyrs which Israel ensures a continual supply of. Their called grassroots movements for a reason - you can't get rid of them unless you poison the soil ie genocide, expulsion or brutal subjugation. Ironically a used phrase to describe Israeli operations is 'mowing the grass' which is periodic to keep resistance checked. But this resistance will never stop unless the soil is destroyed because its the soil (people) that keeps the grass (resistance) growing. Everything Israel obtains through oppression is inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. And when that oppression is resisted as it always has been, that resistance will firstly be gaslighted as barbaric terrorism from savages and secondly will be used to feed the fear of safety needed to maintain that cycle, a cycle set in motion by the aggressor who attempts to reverse the role of victim and victimizer, aggressor and defender in a bid to clean its global image and standing and not lose support from its main benefactor being the US. But The US can't be stained with the sticker of ethnic cleansing and more blood than it already has and that the world has become sick of. They most likely won't continue to bankroll this or else the current party risk political suicide- and if you lose US support domestically, politically and economically you become very lonely in a neighbourhood you can't afford to be lonely in. This is where Israel's arrogance and entitlement is its downfall - a level of arrogance and entitlement shared by your habibi - Bibi Satanyahu. Ultra-Zionist aspirations are limited by the ceiling that is the Palestinians suffering that the world will not stand by. If lobby interests, the state and the military industrial complex go ahead and get involved despite domestic disapproval anyway - this will suck Hezbollah and other actors into the war - world war 3 is here and we'll probably be too busy to rendezvous on forums like this. You reap what you sow - you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind - and in the Middle East if you sow the wind you reap the sandstorm that blinds you from humanity and chokes the throats from which their should be uttered words of peace and a breaking of bread eaten at the table together alongside local Judean olive oil and hummus. Peace for all though for real, inshallah.

Nice worded rebuttal 100%

No wonder he was sacked

@BlueOak Well written. Those to whole evil is done, do evil in return. “Israel may be able to hunt down and kill Hamas’s second-in-command leader Yahya Sinwar, but if they do, he will become the Middle East’s version of Ernesto “Che” Guevara. Resistance movements are built on the blood of martyrs. Israel ensures a continual supply.“

Kinda disrespectful and lacking in social awareness to insult someone who created the very forum you use to insult them on lol @StarStruck True. None of us have probably achieved a fraction of what Elon has achieved - combined. Dismissing people of having nothing worthy of saying or learning from because your views don’t align on certain things seems foolish at best and ideaologically captured and egotistical at worst.

The baby in the oven comes from the Deir Yassin massacre before the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, and the pregnant woman story is something which actually happened in the massacre at Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon in 1982. Zionists mine their own history for things they've done which they can then accuse the Palestinians of, otherwise known as confession through projection. They then flood the media with these stories so that their own history of committing what they accuse the 'evil' side of committing is drowned out. When you go to google searching for baby in the oven now you only get shown the accused Hamas stories of it rather than the old story of Israel doing such atrocities. Baseless allegations of 40 beheaded babies and the like, and connecting Hamas with Nazi's and ISIS indicates that they themselves don't believe Hamas to be as evil as they wish them to be which is why they always feel the need to lie and associate them with more evil groups such as ISIS and Nazi's who don't hold any moral ground for their actions as they weren't defensive resistant groups but expansionist ones.

I have skimmed through a bit of the above so forgive me for not fully understanding - I may come back later to read the reasoning more thoroughly. But I'd like to say first that for outsiders looking in who aren't aware of Spiral dynamics jargon or into non-duality its thread titles like this that put people off from stage green and above values, discussions or the more spiritual community as they view it as completely unhinged from reality. We are chained down by our biology though we have a spirit that is beyond the flesh. As long as we exist in this dimension we can't deny form just because we have access to the formless. Isn't it in our biology to be repulsed by incest? The enlightened types like to be detached from the disputes and dichotomies of the common man, looking down at it all from a lofty place of transcendence. As Ram Dass said, part of awakening can be playing the role of form we are in - that is human. To be human, we've got to get down in the muck where the humanness is happening and accept our humanness. Moral relativity is about understanding different sides but moral legitimacy is about determining and discerning the rightness of a side. Pluralism doesn't always mean neutralism. It's possible to see both sides of every issue - that's a sign of intellectual maturity. But just because we can see both sides doesn’t mean we should live our life as though they both have equal merit. If we don’t further grapple with the rightness of a perspective we neglect a whole dimension of understanding by simply leaving it at “well I can understand this concept (incest) so it must mean its right and okay”. It’s good to understand that all concepts are relative and that none contain absolute truth, but this necessarily means that some concepts are more relatively truthful than others and by extension some actions are more relatively right than others. None of us live our lives as though all things are the same and all concepts are equally true - men can't have babies and I can't identify as something I'm not. We don’t drink bleach to wake us up, we order a coffee. When we want to go to somewhere we take a specific route, we don’t walk in a random direction and hope for manifestation to do its magic. Our daily choices reflect our reliance on relative truths as a fundamental aspect of our everyday life. We create a great many theories and get lost in a subjective echo chamber of them. We rationalize around truth rather than be rational about the truth. We twist narratives to fit our sentiments and subjective feelings. Which is what we have currently in the West. We can call it a ignorant intellect - one which fears truth and uses the intellect and cognitive horsepower to avoid it - the truth that though we are boundless in spirit we are still bound to the limitations of flesh and instinct. A rational society (stage orange and above) is more developed than a less rational one (stage red, blue) but where the rational society malfunctions and starts to appear less developed or more clown worldish to other societies is when they use rationality in this way. Rationality helps us understand different perspectives - moral relativity. The West has indulged this and experimented with it but hasn't progressed to a mature rationality which not only understands but can then discern which perspectives are more valuable than others and which don't deny base aspect of reality or try to disassociate from them but integrate them into a healthy framework. It gets stuck at moral relativity and subjective games of being able to identify however we wish. Moral relativity is like a windmill going in all directions rather than a compass in a single one. If we get stuck going round and round on the moral relativity windmill we will become dizzy, dazed and disillusioned unable to make sense of the world without directionality. A post modernism that leads people to indulging the subjective world unhinges people from the biological reality they exist in. We can't debase ourselves from reality, the human body is a form through which the formless lives, the mould of our meatsuits is what allows spirit to unfold, our skeletal structure allows states of being to be. We won't be able to experience the formless without form or states of being without structure. Sure, these things have their flaws. Moulds become moldy, structures become rickety, forms become frigid, and base reality becomes a basement of dark ignorance when not used for what it is - a base to jump from to the heights of spirit. But without them we wouldn't be able to unfold spirit in the first place.

@Karmadhi @Lila9 Very sad on both sides what happened. It’s almost like a tit for tat in terms of the almost equal number displaced. Zionist memes trying to “debunk” this historical fact of the Nakba often begin their population tables after 1948. The term Nakba is even legislatively banned from Israeli school textbooks. And no this wasn’t sourced from ‘untrustworthy’ Al Jazeera but from Jewish virtual library. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present?utm_content=cmp-true

It seems you as well as many others think that just because you or Israeli society are higher up on spiral dynamics or 'developed' this means you are better and immune to becoming a dark version of your stages and that allows Israel or developed societies the right to do as they please akin to a colonial mindset. It is flawed to frame it as 'children of light vs darkness' or 'Western democratic angels' vs 'Middle Eastern authoritarian devils' . You can still be violent and tribal - you just tribalize around and be violent in the name of and for a different set of ‘higher’ values. Developed groups still have the ancient instincts we finger point less developed groups for acting upon, and the more developed groups can just pull at those instincts in different unassuming ways. You can be a stage green eco terrorist denying the sanctity of human life viewing it as a virus or plague on gaia / mother earth or a stage orange capitalist that though doesn't conquer lands (like stage red) on the geopolitical chess board but now conquers consumers through commerce from within the board room of corporations. A greedy stage red conquerer rapes and pillages land whilst a greedy stage orange capitalist conquers the wallets of consumers and pillages the soul for materialist gain. Similar dynamic unfolding in different ways. Is a broken orange/green society still better than a healthy red/blue society? Possibly, but a more developed society also has more powerful tools with more leverage and potential for destruction which could make them more of a threat to world peace. A stage red primitive tribe might be sick and dangerous but their destruction will only be localised/limited to their village surroundings whilst a stage orange techno-capitalist superpower though having more inclusive and broader values including democracy and science can inflict a larger negative global impact if this stage becomes sick, pathological or unhealthily manifest. A highly developed society generally has more powerful instruments / tools, but if the individuals of that society become unhealthy their potential for chaos is greater. The individual and wielder of the tool needs to be just as developed - a parallel match between the individuals development and the tools his developed society bestows him - because the stakes are higher. A sick red society may only cause ripples on the world stage due to their limited tools of power but a developed orange society with more powerful tools will cause a tsunami of damage which is what we’ve seen in the 21st century. We can use spiral dynamics to make sense of the world or make our sense of self more righteous in relationship to others lower on the spiral.

You're still spewing your hate. You're either trolling, deluded, or a recruit from the Israeli propaganda department known as Hasbara who volunteer to go on social media platforms to disseminate pro Israeli talking points and participate on forums and blogs. Theirs quite a difference noticed between people who tend to lean towards Israel or Palestine - it seems Israeli propaganda has gone so far up your butt hole in dehumanising the other side. Israel apologists throw up every distraction and red herring they can think of to try and drag opposition to Israel’s mass atrocities off course. 'Most moral army of the world', 'fight of light vs darkness', 'stop criticizing Israel’s actions. look over there, not over here at our massacring.'

Hasbara - a slang term for ‘explaining’ and Israel’s propaganda tool used even on its own citizens. https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/the-art-of-deception-how-israel-uses-hasbara-to-whitewash-its-crimes-46775

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0iAML0uBnx/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D Not sure what they did but pretty heave handed response by the IDF on Israeli Jews. Muzzle critics and if not obstruct information then obfuscate or spin it.