Water by the River

... and its the old conflict between sudden and gradual awakening. That conflict happened in every spiritual system, for example very famous in Zen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism So it is probably not the newest show in town.... Well, I prefer the integral solution of "nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time", so both perspectives hold a certain degree of truth. Which can then be integrated. Selling Water by the River

I also understand the reaction of Breakingthewall here. @Inliytened1 and Breakingthewall: How about both perspectives are important: (1) The steps (or awakenings, or Kenshos/Satoris, Enlightenments (not the Final Basis Enlightenments) or temporary openings to the real state of things, whatever you want to call them) to Absolute Reality/Ones True being are important, since they are aligning the individual mindstream more with the enlightenened mindstream, increasing its potential to finally wake up fully. That is still happening in the dream, but the dream can be more or less lucid. But these experiences are very important. So maybe something like "waking up fully" is sudden, its either or, its an "accident", but previous "awakenings, or Kenshos/Satoris, Enlightenments" make accident-prone. Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment/Final Enlightenment/Fully Waking Up: The full waking up is then a sudden, unmistaken waking up to the True Reality of both oneself and Reality, nondual. The description of the Tibetan Mahamudra System, and Basis Enlightenment, describes exactly that: (1) "Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash [small "awakenings/enlightenments or whatever one wants to call it" but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience." (2) Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event [sudden, awake or not], wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations At least from my perspective it doesn't look so complicated to align the different statements/wordings/descriptions/experiences/views concepts into a picture that can contain them all, that is spacious enough in an integral way to make room for all experiences and perspectives in a coherent picture. Water by the River

Actually, on my bucket list is offering courses in “1984” doublethink, Steven Norquist style: http://www.hauntedpress.net/What_is_Enlightenment.html "You basically have to employ a little Orwellian “1984” doublethink. You have to pretend to believe, while always knowing the truth." Or how to improve ones imaginary Karma while Selling Water by the River No, just kidding . Gotta stay humble.... Selling Water by the River PS: And the coolest answer to the next question: Are you enlightened, Sir !? Ken Wilbers answer: Enlightened enough.... " In Zen are you enlightened what was always taken as a trick because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't if you say yes then you clearly... no individual is enlightened . but if you say no then you're just an ignoramus, you're an idiot" "almost all I can say is enlightened enough if you say more than that you're just a braggart and almost certainly wrong and if you say less than that then you're worthless you know and you're also not telling the truth"

Ah, you know, too busy Selling Water by the River for doing that... Water by the River

Agree, important point. Since I am quoting already a lot today, I hope you don't mind me hijacking your comment, and quoting some passages from "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown" again. Maybe that is interesting for some.... Bold markings and [...] by yours truly. THE OUTCOME: THE NATURE OF ENLIGHTENMENT Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event, wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations. One implication of the term nonmeditation is that the "journey ends." There are no more stages. Pema Karpo says,The journey ends. Going by stages stops. There are no stages that go anywhere else. You find the perfection of everything that came before, without stages. (PK, f. rib) There are no stages (sa med) beyond this point ... a. Basis Enlightenment The first enlightenment moment is sometimes called samadhi-enlightenment (mnyam bzhag) because it typically occurs during continuous, uninterrupted mindfulness. When the conditions of the extraordinary meditation are exactly right, crossing over occurs. A profound shift occurs during which seemingly individual consciousness, and all ordinary sense experience and all false concepts associated with it, drop away. The vast awareness-space of the dharmakaya becomes the point of observation. Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btags pa), which drops away. Basis-enlightenment is said to be "beyond all notions," "beyond examination," "beyond representation," and "beyond false concepts" (TN, pp. 5 19-20). Tilopa says: When the mind comes to an end, The three realms become absorbed therein.... Through the nonduality of self and other you become the blessed Buddha. The mind becomes absorbed through the force of the ripening perspective of [vast awareness-] space. Then, the five sense systems and their objects, the aggregates, and the elements also dissolve in the perspective of space. The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space. Basis enlightenment leads to a very "new view of the way the realized mind stays" (TN, p. 5 17). When the concept of individual consciousness or "mind" is finally eradicated, a profound rearrangement takes place. Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience. Therefore the first moment of enlightenment is called basis enlightenment. During the ordinary special-insight meditations the practitioner searched for certain knowledge within arising events of the ordinary mental continuum. During the extraordinary samadhi meditations the practitioner located the simultaneous mind as the source of certain knowledge. Now, with basis enlightenment, knowledge takes on a new epistemological locus of knowledge. Awakened wisdom comes forth but not in association with either the ordinary or the simultaneous mind. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness]has no basis. It is without coming Ong med) and without going ('song med), in that it does not arise from the seeming activity of the relative mental continuum. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] is self-originated (rang 'byung). It is simply there, and with basis enlightenment, stays there. Basis enlightenment is called, "wisdom beyond the world" (TN, p. 542)." So also according to Mahamudra/Tibetan Buddhism, the Deep Identity Level Shift of Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment is sudden (contrary to the slowly ripening of Awakened Awareness before), self-evident, and there is no stage beyond it. Awake or not. Other Traditions call the shifts that happen before that event "Awakenings", some even Enlightenments. But qualified Enlightenments, "smaller" Enlightenments, partial gradual "awakenings" refining the mindstream to make it conform to the Big Shift, awake or not. Its a question of choosing the words. But they tend to differentiate clearly between the final thing/Great Enlightenment/Waking Up, and the events before. I agree with Inliytened1 that if we call this Great Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment/ Waking Up, that one is either awake or not. Digital, either or. Before being awake, one can maybe postulate there are gradual changes/"Awakenings", preparing for the final big shift (called crossing over to Enlightenment, or Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra). Or waking up, like in awake or not. If one knows or has realized what one truly deeply is, one knows what one is, and also what everything else is and only can ever be. Awake or not. If one is not sure, one is still asleep/dreaming. Awakening n+1 ain't it.... Selling Water by the River

Normal full-time business career, married but no kids, and a hobby also... I was a bookworm for a long time, reading hundreds of books, with a focus on meditation/spiritual systems. I wanted to find the most efficient ones there are. Considering what that brought into my life, I wasn't too unlucky doing that. It all can be done, though honestly I wouldn't be where I am at without the book that i shamelessly promote, "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown". You know, Selling Water by the River, and especially that book... . And other books from Mahamudra/Dzogchen also. It is a very efficient system, with limited need for sitting meditation if done correctly. I used and still use most of the day off the pillow for meditation/mindfulness practice, or just staying in my True Being. If no absolutely distracting mental work is necessary, one can use pretty much all day, even meetings and standard work to stay mindful in the sense of " Simultaneous Mind (nondual, 3. stage of Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste)" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind" (switching off the separate self, 4. stage of Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). That brings the momentum/time/hours in meditation that probably most of us need. To be honest, I had to read the book a lot of times (at least stages 1-4 Mahamudra, Skill of Reckongition, Yoga of Unelaboration, Yoga of One Taste, Nonmeditation Yoga). At one point, I had to wait several years to understand the Yoga of Unelaboration, which is really hard to understand. A cycle of read, try, read again, understand a bit more, read again, even more, meditate, get certain states, read again, misunderstand, read again, understand, and so on.... But with progress and increasing meditation experience one can get what is described, and "go upwards in circles" of meditation experience -> understanding/realization -> reading more, understanding more of the system -> meditation exerpience -> understanding/realization and so on, n+1. Yes. In essence, one gets love from others, and self-esteem (aka validation with concepts), and safety/security. Sure, at a certain stage of development one could go into the desert when the flow of love/bliss from ones True Core is fully on (It is a nice indicator to check how transcended the separate self really is). But to live a healthy and integrated life, why not take the love, validation of self-esteem from "others" on top? It also provides a good calibration to live a healthy, integrated and balanced relative life in society. Doing the desert thing at some point is rather easy... Business Meetings is where the challenge is , Death by a-bit-less-intelligent-than-can-be-Powerpoint-presentations and meetings and so on... Still working on that, and, admittingly, having fun while doing so... Even the more or less Awake Ones live a more healthy and integrated life when integrating in a healthy way in society, or at least trying to. One can do the Ramana-thing of walking off into the wildness and forget eating a little bit. But why should one do it? If one has taken at least a little bit of compassion training/Boddhisattva-vow/whatever, one probably feels better living an integrated and wholesome life in society. Selling Water by the River

No, that dream just happened. I didn't contemplate about that too much. Sure I did contemplate the topic, but I never had real problems with that. A bit yes, but not too much. Maybe because when that contemplation of "other" became a real existential topic, I was already practicing (and concentrated on) staying in boundless changeless limitless Awakened Awareness (infinite, nondual, mere appearance). When you are in that state, it doesn't freak you out that "others" don't really exist, but one can directly intuit that the same Impersonal Consciousness that Oneself and Reality really is, is also the substratum/essence (Nothingness/Consciousness) of their mindstream. You can intuit/feel their Illusion-arisings of I-feelings/I-thoughts of being something specific as being exactly(!) the same as the illusion arisings in ones own mindstream. The exact same mechanism how "others" fall for the illusion, as oneself does and did. Once one knows the structure/pattern/gestalt/essence of ones own Illusion separate self arisings, one sees them in "others", or other perspectives of the same consciousness. That doesn't cause shock, but limitless empathy. It is You (not the separate self, but the real you, Impersonal Consciousness, totally empty), litereally You looking through all eyes. That is the core and source of all empathy, but now without any filters and flowing freely, directly intuiting und knowing that it is You looking through all eyes. Then, where should the shock come from? All beings are children of the Real You, Impersonal Empty Consciousness (not a of separate self blown up to God-like proportions). Including what one formerly thought was "oneself". Only the separate self arisings/gestalt need "others" for love, validation, belongingness, self-esteem, the whole Maslow-Pyramid stage 1-4 up and down is made out of that. Couldn't be different to get a society going & surviving. Impersonal Consciousness and the bliss flowing from it doesn't need it. So it could make sense to transcend all of that already to a large degree before entering the terrain where there is no "other". The gentlemen who wrote "Enlightenment: Behind The Scenes, Leavitt" describes his final Enlightenment experience when he directly realized that he IS his daugther. Literally the same consciousness. Not as metaphor, but literally. Didn't cause a shock, but infinite love. Disclaimer (not written for you Breakingthewall): All of the above is only valid when one speaks from an Identity and mindstream of Impersonal Empty Consciousness, not from the perspective of a psychedelic boosted separate self (or even worse, not even having the psychedelic experience and just playing playing mind-games having watched some videos), blowing itself up to God-like dimensions and playing God. The entrance price for all of that is literally the transcendence/death of large or most parts of the separate self, and the final price is its complete demise/complete transcendence (transcendence of the separate self part, and then include the remaining functional character. Transcend and integrate, not transcend and disassociate, see Ken Wilber). Death/Transcendence not of the functional character/Ego, but of the separate self arisings. The main indicator for the separate self still being well, alive and active is narcissm, or self-grandiosity and self-importance. Preferably in the form of preaching from upon high. On the other side, that is not even a bad thing, because then every newbie with at least some intuition, common sense, and a not too narcisstic karma can spot that from a mile away. Instead of transcending/slowly annihilating the separate self, one boosts it up to God-like dimensions with doing that. Good luck ever transcending that! Doing something like that can destroy ones life. There have been cases like that, final station mental asylum or next life, or in the "best case" just a miserable unintegrated life full of suffering- end of disclaimer - I don't know if that view/frame helps. Maybe it is a nice exercise to feel deeply into the essence/consciousness of what you are, and then deeply into the consciousness/sentience of "another"? Its the same Nothingness/Consciousness. One can directly experience that (if oneself is completely empty, just pure impersonal consciousness). It is not philosophy or a nice idea, but a direct experience. But one has to be completely empty. The own lense of perception has to be completely empty of separate self arisings (=high speed cut off of any of these arisings before they grip/hypnotize oneself and elaborate fully, Trekchö-style. Needs familiarity, training and high-speed of attention/spotting, aka the goal of meditation. Please see my last decription-posting of the Pointing out the Great Way Mahamudra system, link below), only then one can intuit that. A colored lense with stains will not let that intuition/understanding pass. As second step, one can feel that essence of every appearance of the visual field as Nothingness, hovering as mere appearance in infinite Nothingness, at a certain point of practice Which is necessary at some point, because as Daniel Brown said: One can not understand the Totality/Wholeness from a partialized stance. Nonduality has to be there before that understanding. One has to literally become all phenomena appearing in the Infinite Boundless Changeless Awakened Awareness field (that is Nonduality), and then see what all of that is and who or what is aware of that. Then, at the end of the Road, Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness IS everything: Your Mindstream, the mindstream of others, the appearance of the world in the visual field, every though/feeling. Infinite, boundless, limitless, nondual all there ever could be. Everything that could ever appear appears in that, made out of that suchness/Nothingness/Consiousness as its essence. Then, one experiences/becomes/is... Home/safe/Indestructable/eternal: And that actually is not shocking. But if feels like one is at home, now and always, wherever you go in relative reality. No Fear: Somewhere in the Upanishads it says "Where there is other there is fear". If there is only oneself, which is indestructable (no moving parts, just Nothingness that can't disappear), there is no fear. Infinite Love: The recognition that there is no other in the whole kosmos, but only the suchness of ones being, bound together in a infinite nondual field of love Infinite Freedom: When the bliss/love of your own indestructable infinite true being flows, what could you ever want that you don't get, or ever be taken away from you? Total freedom. Then we have Eternal/Indestructable, Fearless, Love, and infinite Freedom. But before one gets there, the illusion-mechanism/Maya/Lila had to place some strong "illusion-protection-mechanisms" in front of these properties of the enlightened mindstream, because if it wouldn't scare the separates selves, who in his right mind wouldn't attach his own mindstream to these properties of the enlightened mindstream. And the strongest one is probably the need for "other" or "others", Maslow stage 1-4. Somehow I mostly fail to write short posts. Maybe I need to go to a training "Concise writing for Dummies" who went off the deep end of Emptiness... Selling Water by the River

I think you will be doing fine. There is nothing to loose but an illusion. >To let go everything is very difficult and scary. But don't ot let go, is a jail. I understand you very well. Several years ago, I had a dream. That was before deeper insights into reality happened. I died multiple times in that dream (literally, by falling, smashing, other funny stuff also), and the visual field went off, only a darkness suffused with light remained. Not the usual blackout (unaware of itself), but an infinite Nothingness suffused with light remained. That was a causal state (using Ken Wilbers terminology), which I later realized. A state quite near to Absolute Reality (meaning easy to intuit the properties of Absolute Reality. Absolute Reality is always here, but sometimes more easy to intuit), but not unaware like Deep Sleep. Nothing there, Infinite, but still somehow aware (suffused with light). That happened multiple times, and during one of the last deaths, I got a bit cocky, saying to myself something like "okaaay, now show me if I can really die. Lets do this again". Dream-Death, and again the same time this causal state of an infinite Nothingness suffused with light appeared. Then, again I died, this Nothingness suffused with light. No objects, no time. A few seconds or a vastly longer time, I couldn't tell. Timeless. It was the same timeless Always Here Mind that I intuited/realized later more clearer. Then I woke up to "real" life, again passing through this Infinite Nothingness suffused with light. What somehow went with all of that was somehow the fear of dying all those "Enlightenment" Deaths, of being Nothing at all, Impersonal, an infinite vast reality perceiving itself. When it began happening to become really more and more impersonal, like beyond my comfort zone, I was a bit shocked like "okay, impersonal? really? Not "myself", the character?" But soon I knew again and realized what would always remain, being that which could never not be there. Indestructable, totally empty, like "no-moving-parts". Eternal. But with the potential for sentience, and to become/manifest anything IT wanted. Independend if a Dinosaur, another human, an animal, or whatever else would manifest in my mindstream/perspective as subject in another illusion/Lila. I even became grateful when a dream appeared that was not lucid, like the fun/experience of having the chance to believe such an illusion again. That took away the fear of being less than lucid once more. So the after-glow of remembering that dream ended a phase pretty fast that could have been prolonged for sure. Nowadays, I am very thankful for that dream, although I only recognized its meaning, significance and effects much later, when significant parts of the separate self died, or rather got seen through for the illusions that they were. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Actually, I am in the lucky situation that I never will be needing to charge anything for the stuff I am selling. So technically, its not selling. More like annoying with meditation-propaganda... . And no, no rich parents Selling Water by the River is the title of a book and the statement of a Zen Master, meaning that when one is talking about meditation/Enlightenment, one is sneakely "selling" the people what they already have/are: "Water by the River". I went a bit over the top with the length of a posting I just made: In that, concerning the nature of thoughts: And maybe one more perspective: Thoughts are subtle objects, appearing and "moving" in you. WIth practice, a certain directionality/movement gets intuited, as strange as that sounds. Another subtle object is the mathmatical object of the square-root of minus 1, in mathematics called "i". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_unit You can never see it, but it exists, as mathematical object. If you ever had to do alternating current calculation using complex numbers like i, as yours truly had to do quite some time ago , the usefulness of "i" and other stuff becomes apparent pretty fast. So, "i" is real, but you can never see it. A subtle object. Can be understood, experienced, can be calculated with, has useful applications doing so in the "real" world. And you can never talk about i and doing the practical stuff with others who had the experience of understanding what i is. And sorry in advance, but I can't avoid doing that : For the all-is-imaginary-fanclub: Here you have "real" imagined numbers ("i"). Here it is completely technically correct to talk about "it is all imaginary". Because who in his right mind would be strange enough to define the imaginary number i, the impossible square root of minus 1. The only thing I am waiting for is for one of the "all-is-imaginary-fanclub" to actually start doing calculations in the imaginary unit and complex number plane, and then "correctly" saying: It is all imaginary. Sorry for the little disgression. So what is "i"? A subtle object, floating in you like a thought. "i" is an object, some thoughts of you are already an object you can work with. Some are not, you look through them like a lense, a subjective arising. Meditation is making all (I-)thoughts and I-feelings also to objects you see moving within yourself. They move in you, but you are (not only) them.... If you know the nature of thoughts fully (their essence is Nothingness, or Infinite Empty Impersonal Consciousness), you would be enlightened and know and understand the true Nature both of yourself and Reality. The essence or nature of any appearance in the visual field can also be directly apprehended as the same Nothingness, the same Suchness of Reality. So it is well worth it... Selling Water by the River

I already thought for a fraction of a second while reading this that you have gone of the deep end and converted to the fraction that fell in love with their own reflected image in certain ponds... . Imaginary Pond and reflection of course. Really happy to hear. >It is not meditation that has led me to this but observation and deconstruction and psychedelics, which have made it possible to break the wall/shield of the mental stream and open myself to myself. I am really interested how that continues. Psychedelics, meditation, and intelligent deconstruction/contemplation of the separate self arisings/Gestalt (while not going falling for the trap of the "I am God" Narcissm-Show of the separate-self declaring everything is just imagined), aiming for a Deep Identity Level Shift towards Truth, must be a powerful path. While that path is probably not as hilarious for the readers as the Narcissm-show of the "its-all-imagined-anyway" club, it is a path with a heart. A path that actually leads somewhere very beautiful, that can bring freedom from the claws of the self-contraction of the separate self, instead of hugging these claws and declaring them "imagined". And hoping that the pain and suffering which are the nature of these claws magically disappears. Bon voyage! Water by the River

DMT Quest has made two books and several fascinating videos. https://dmtquest.org/questions-for-the-lion-tamer-1/ and It is really fascinating stuff, that can explain a lot of other phenomena in an integral way. Among other things, they postulate that the Endohuasca-system is triggered by a) Meditation https://dmtquest.org/meditation-hypnosis/ Get Gamma-frequency of the brain up, and the endohuasca-system probably starts flowing.... In Ken Wilbers system, subjective states (Upper Left Quadrant) have correlates in the body (Upper Right Quadrant), and vice-versa. Causing positive feedback-loops, increasing lucidity and nonduality, bliss and so on. The transformation of the whole self/identity, in stages, making states permanent.... Principle: States are free, stages are earned. When the mindstream conforms to the requirements of these systems, stabilizing and enlightened mind-stream. Daniel Brown did a study with his "Pointing out the Great Way" students and a advanced Brainscanner. Result: Gamma-waves boosted to the max.... Maybe helps to take transforming the baseline state via meditation to "trippy"-levels more serious... b) Dark Retreat (The Tibetans do it for 100s of years, several other tribes do it, tends to induce visions. Some kind melatonin-pineal-gland.connection). c) Special Breathing (Wim Hoefer, Holotropic Breathing, Tummo, ...) d) Other stuff (Near Death experiences, cancer in certain areas of the brain (pineal gland), Kundalini, ...). trigger the body-endohuasca-system. Some meditation-states, especially advanced ones once stabilized in daily life (post-samadhi), or hardcore pillow-meditation-states, are quite "trippy" and (1) change the visual field towards "not external/nondual", "lucid,vivid,bright, groundless mere appearance, Nothingness as its essence, "hovering" in Infinite Nothingness". (2) kill the localization sensation of being in the body, making one no longer localized in the infinite field, but being the unbounded wholeness of Reality. (3) And bliss. Ken Wilbers once linked that drug addicts of Heroin get previews to the bliss of certain meditative states, and of course get addicted to that. Although I have never tried Heroin and am not so stupid to try, in my experience I can confirm (1) (2) and (3). And having these states in place, it becomes possible to intuit and realize what is aware of the whole Enchilada, being also its essence: Nothingness. Perceptions perceiving themselves. Ones True Identity. There are definitely bodily/energetic/chemical changes going on in these transformations or stabilizing these states as stages. The two books are actually a good reading for everyone belittling meditation and the permanent and deep transformations possible (@Breakingthewall, I know you don't and are open. I just write in general, as always). The states induced by psychedelics that are ripping ones heart open to Infinite Love, bathing ones sould and being in heavenly bliss, and opening the separate self contraction to the Infinite, are also available to the body by endogenous means. Or else, how would the stereotypical enlightened one with a halo depicted around the head "oozing" bliss "work"? Auto-Suggestion? The receptors in the body are there anyway, else psychedelics wouldn't work. Just add a system where an enlightened mindstream (empty, fast enough to spot separate-self-arisings, very high Gamma/Delta-waves/meditation states) triggers the body-Endohuasca-system, and one has hypothesized a possible mechanism growing and transforming baseline-consciousness to the Infinite. A system that could explain the manifestation of the potential of the human being, ranging from atom-molecule-animal-primate-human to Infinite Being/True Identity, ACTUALIZED on a permanent and stable basis. Certainly not boosting trippy states to the " stratosphere" where one can no longer "walk straight", but a lovely way to life ones life... ACTUALIZED sounds (at least to me) more like: Realized ones potential, like in "permanently". Not only for the trip, and then again with the next trip... That would be "actualized temporarily...." And of course "Exo"-Huasca of course also works.... Selling Water by the River

Having fallen totally in love with the mirage image of the separate self in the pond. The Greeks really had some mythology, like Narcissus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_(mythology) And all other ones who came before are complete idiots. I mean, Ken Wilber said "nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time". And since all traditional spirituality is "UTTER BULLSHIT", these guys must "have made it" to be smart enough to be wrong all the time. Bon voyage Water by the River

Razard86, in my humble opinion, you didn't answer the question of OBEler. But maybe OBEler got it, and I didn't. The other beings/perspectives don't collapse or end when you or OBEler (or I) die/end. Indras Net and Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness (which we really are, already now, we just "forget" all other perspectives/beings) will continue fine without all of "us". To think it all ends if a certain perspective is switched off is solipsistic madness. Thinking the Totality stops when one separate perspective is shut off... Its like looking a bit too deep into the pond like Narcissus did, and boosting it with the power of an Infinity of Gods. Don't you intuit that the exactly same consciousness/Nothingness that you are is every other being? When I look at other beings, I intuit the same consciousness that I really am (and every being is). Their mindstream arisings arise in that Nothingness/Consciousness exactly as in mine. There is no difference. That Nothingness is the essence of everything, all perspectives, every appearance in Reality. Nondual, infinite Nothingness, Reality itself. The same Nothingness/Consciousness that we all are can continue very well without you and me, and anybody else. It can't go anywhere. "It" is already everyhting, everyone, infinite and total. You only get problems with answering these questions if you confuse Totally Empty Consciousness/Nothingness with something not so empty. Like a totally empty separate self/witness, with some individuality still left, hovering in a nondual field. Especially easy to get there with psychedelics. Or even worse: "Thinking" ones way there, watching one Youtube-video or two too many... Going down that road, one has to use construct funny concepts like Infinity of Gods (very nondual indeed), and other Solipsistic funny stuff, making space for a separate self blown up to God-like proportions. The funny thing with Solipsism is: If you proclaim you are the only one having a sentient perspective, every one else having also sentience and consciousness knows that you are, well, a bit nuts... Probably this here is peak solipsistic/Infinity-of-Gods madness. The top level to where you can drive a still separate self Gestalt, proclaiming it is God and that there are an Infinity of other Gods. But hey, what do I know.... And now please throw some arguments from the Absolute Side of the Street at me Bon Voyage Water by the River

@Razard86 You won: The prize for the most exclamation marks definitely goes to you. The separate self arisings arise in the mindstream of most sentient beings, like any other arising. I never said the separate self is a thing. I wrote Gestalt and structure. A process, an arising, flowing in Reality. It is not a thing, but a Gestalt, like everything else. There are no "things" in the whole of Reality, only appearing patterns, with more or less continuity/structure. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gestalt "A collection of physical, biological, psychological or symbolic elements that creates a whole, unified concept or pattern which is other than the sum of its parts, due to the relationships between the parts (of a character, personality, entity, or being)" And by the way, you can't point to an Imaginary number, like for example i2 = −1 . Yet, without these concepts and tools (of course also all arisings/Gestalts so to say) pointing to these mathematical objects (that are not material, yet very well have a reality to them), nothing of our modern world in engineering and mathematics could have been created. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number You don't even need to write something like that, that is a performative contradiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction Because the statement itself (words/symbols) claims validity (else you would not write it), while saying every word is a symbol, have no meaning, trickery, "it is delusion". But doing it using words/symbols, which you claim are delusions anyway. Using that logic, you can justify everything. And the kind of stuff justified by this logic is normally mainly: But I already know that this won't stop the usage of this kind of flawed logic, but at least the reader can make his own picture about the things explained and justified by this kind of performative contradiction (probably resulting in something of the picture above). You can read that up for example at Wilber, and many other philosophers, for example Habermas, or Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction You are confusing relative truth (which can be very useful on a relative level, for example a diamond cuts glass, but not the other way round, true on a relative level. Or the concept of the Gestalt of a separate self) and absolute truth (everything is an illusion, and all words/pointers occur in Absolute Reality/Totality). Anticipating an answer with as many exclamation marks, capital letters and HAHAHHAHHAH as possible Yours truly & Bon voyage Water by the River

Lets take Ken Wilber take on that, on which I agree: The Ego as functional character handling daily life stays. The enlightened ones have strong egos, and left their mark on the world. They knew/know what they really are. Hard to shake that first-hand-knowledge of ones True Identity, so they are not easily scared away. The separate-self-arisings/Gestalt/structure: What goes in True Self Realization are the separate-self-arisings, or the exclusive identifying with the character ....even if the separate-self remaining is its only an empty witness-anything basking in Nonduality, but with some subtle Individuality (=separateness) still intact - The usual psychedelic hang-over separate-self-identity still haunting a not so selfless/empty mindstream). The separate self arisings as "identity" are then replaced by being Reality itself, CONTAINING a hopefully functional character/Ego. The separate self is dead after realizing ones True Deep Identity. Literally. If its not dead, its not Full Enlightenment. Why? True Identity=Nothingness, manfesting Reality/Totality and being its essence, nondual and infinite. But nothing specific you can point to. Perceptions perceiving themselves. The separate self arisings, including one of its main components/building blocks, NARCISSM/self-grandiosity, get killed/transcended/no longer believed/cut off/seen as fake illusion objects moving in oneself, and discarded on that Deep Identity Shift of Full Enlightenment.... ... Not the functional character (which some also call Ego). One doesn't get stupid and cuts that off, and remains a stumbling nutcase ever after.... Problem with the term Ego often is: Ego=functional character arisings PLUS separate self arisings. Because our society fuses these two Gestalt-structures as one, because it doesn't know any better and doesn't have much examples to the contrary. ... because the separate self arisings (and especially NARCISSM/self-grandiosity) are recognized as being actually one of the largest defense-block against the realization of ones True Identity, Nothingness/Reality. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Sorry, that wasn't clearly written from my side. That statement, and actually my whole post referred to AlexNonyamous6 statement/post (the parts quoted below). My post didn't mainly refer to your post. I just agreed with what you have written ("very true"). I think we agree that having some basic in normal relative in place can be helpful for the further path. One shouldn't wait starting the spiritual path until then, but maybe "saving the world" can wait a little bit until ones own life is balanced&healthy. The definition of suffering I use is "psychological suffering, OR resistance to what is", not for example bodily pain (and even with that, you can have bodily pain as raw sensation, flowing through you, with no psychological resistance added to it). And with that definition, if one constantly rests in ones True Nature, suffering can indeed be overcome. Because if one rests in One True Nature (Reality itself), its rather hard to have the "autoimmune disorder" of rejecting certain aspects of your own True Self, and creating duality while doing so. Ones True Nature is the source of all bliss and peace. The experiences that the separate self strives for temporarily relieve the suffering that the separates self arising-structures cause/consist of on a regularly basis. At least my experience. But the fulfillment of these experiences doesn't create the bliss, but cause temporarily the stopping/cutting off that the separate self does to that flow of bliss. That by the way becomes pretty clear when one can literally shut off the self-contraction in ones head, when the localization and contraction (sensations normally behind the eyes) there are lost. Before I learned to do that with meditation (by the way, mainly in daily life, off the pillow. But starting on the pillow for quite a while), I became aware how sometimes before fully waking up the contraction in the head is not there yet, and then while waking up from slumbering "kicks in", but I couldn't reverse it back then. Maybe you know that experience. After a lot of meditation that became possible. It feels like you can literally switch off the separate self when it kicks in with some kind of unpleasant contractions/localizations/sensations in the head (plus of course the usual I-thought blabla and some I-feelings, and other unpleasant emotions/suffering coming with it), and get the bliss flowing doing that cutting off/Trekchö-style. and it took me many years getting there, probably can't be done short term. Ken Wilber: States are free, stages are earned (with a lot of work/practice). At least in my case, didn't go too fast... Probably big ego-case needed to be chopped away slowly The statements above are in line with all spiritual traditions on Enlightenment which I am aware of. Ken Wilber once wrote that it can be made from peak experience to plateau to permanent. Once one achieves making certain states stable as a plateau, one gets an idea how it all can work shutting off the suffering with "on-board-devices", no longer being dependend on external experiences. Then, one continues practicing to make it from plateau to permanent. When it gets that bad, I believe it is possible to either stay in the source of bliss, or at least to overcome the shock much faster, depending how solid one is rooted in ones own True Being, the source of all bliss. There are cases like that. And when one knows the mechanism described above, it becomes pretty clear how that does and would work... To make it more specific: The flow of bliss "using on-board-devices" (efficient meditation opening the Endohuasca-System, something like this https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ ) can become so strong that one can stay open in the Infinite, to use your words. And that creates a dynamic between bliss -> opening up nondual-way to the infinite -> more bliss -> more opening up to the infinite and so on that can become so strong that it can stay even through even heavy blows of fate. >there will always be suffering as long as you are human Actually, I agree to that. But at the end, you are much more the whole Reality then just a human. A Deep Identity Shift. One actually is the Whole Thing... Then one has a human moving in True Oneself, one is no longer just a human anymore. And then, suffering can become a background voice, very remote, much more easy to switch off.... I know, words in a forum... But it would be inauthentic from me to not write about that, because it is my own experience. I can only invite and motivate people to go this path. There is too much written about that it is not possible, suffering will persist and so on and so on. It doesn't need to, really doesn't. It is a bit like the Gateless Gate: One can't see it before one gets access to certain meditative and nondual/non-localized states of meditation in daily life that get the bliss/Endohuasca-system flowing. And then, oh boy, it is truly a miracle. Again and again. best regards Selling Water by the River

Very True. And there is a nice and pretty fool-proof (literally ) indicator if one really rests in ones own True Being, is enlightened on a stable basis, or if the separate self arisings are still well and alive: If you still suffer regularly, you resist the present moment manifested in your True Being/Reality. To be more precise: The separate self arisings in the True You are the resisting/suffering. So there are still some elements not transcended, your deep identity is not Reality itself then, because you (separate self arisings) want to have the True You/Reality different than it appears in this moment when you suffer. In this forum exists a large tendency to talk this simple mechanism away, because it is the blind spot (and contradiction in itself) of not so enlightened separate selves/egos thinking they are God. And admitting this to be the case, it would stop the Ego/Separate Self from thinking it is God/Absolute and its preaching from "upon high" with a hilarious ego/narcissm-show of truly god-sized dimension, which apparently feels oh so nice for some and starting lecturing. But hey, the show seen here sometimes really reminds of prime time comedy... And as written above, the mechanism luckily literally is fool-proof. No one gets left behind in Maya . Sorry, pardon my french. My recommendation would be, since you mention psychosis and depression: Get your life in order (psychological health, financial security/education/job, familiy & friends & relationships, a harmonious life on the relative level), until depression, psychosis and conflict in general is gone in your life as much as possible, and a happy & healthy as can be life on a relative level is achieved. And combining that growing up on all levels, and waking up with some kind of meditation practice would be real serious and transforming spiritual practice, ending up if possible in a stable resting in your True Being itself. Then you can show up in the world. Ken Wilbers grow up, wake up, show up. Then live the bliss of your true being on a stable basis for 5 years or so. And then, start thinking about how you can help so called "others". Maybe recheck if there are "others" at all.... Because if you try to "help/change" "others" from a position halfway up the mountain, that project is just one of the endless projects of the separate self to make the world conform to its own ideas and visions, and to ease its own suffering. What the outcome of these good intentions can be sometimes, look around in the world.... exactly. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Very True. The concept "everything is just imagination" doesn't help one a bit if the suffering of the separate self still "grips" and is not transcended on a stable basis. And it grips/holds until Full Enlightenment, to varying degrees. And Karma, or cause & effect, or the consistence of this Bardo/Life, is very very high in this life/bardo/incarnation, compared for example to a dream. If you "shoot yourself in the knee"-Karma-wise (or literally), it will be with you for the rest of ones life.... Not like in the dream, where the wound is gone when you wake up. And if one goes fully from the relative side of the street to the absolute side of the street: When all is imagined, or better said a manifestation of the One Reality without a second (its not imagined by a separate/self ego, or one of the infinite perspectives in Indras Net, but by the Whole Reality/Nothingness), there is no difference between "real" or "imagined". One doesn't need to classify it with the concept "imagined" vs. the concept "real/self-existing". It just is. Appearing in The One Reality without a second. And it all follows certain patterns, or Karma, cause and effect, at least in this world/Lila. So what is the point labeling it "imagined", if one is clearly still in the claws of Karma/suffing and separate self? Other than spiritual bypassing? What is the benefit? As long as one suffers, it appears as very real.... or who would suffer if "its only imagined". And telling somebody who suffers "hey, its only imagined, believe me and you can stop suffering now".... yeah, works great, shows a lot of empathy and compassion, and helps the poor sould for sure a lot... The Tibetans are in this business for 1000 years+. They have seen a lot of mis-use of jargon from Enlightened Ones misused by not-so-enlightened-ones. And the outcome of that have been for example statements like this: "Although my view is higher than the sky, my respect for the cause and effect of actions [or Karma] is as fine as grains of flour." - Padmasambhava There is a lot of wisdom in that quote... Water by the River

Yes, very good point you write. And very important. Steven Wolinsky has once said and written: An experience of the Absolute is just that: An experience of the Absolute. It is not the Absolute itself, which is the True You/Reality. But an experience that the True You/Reality is having. In Itself, in the Infinite Groundless Totality of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. In Nothingness, as Halaw (God is Nothingness) calls it, to avoid any "positive" property being attached to the Absolute. Which is infinite, which is another word for "no positive quality at all besides being Reality itself", or: Nothingness. IT contains all possible infinite qualities. If the True You is Nothingness/Absolute/Reality, then when "Infinite Consciousness" tries "to look back over its shoulder" so to say (which it really can't, because IT is everything/the Totality), and experience OF NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS arises. And paradoxically that experience arises IN the infinite Reality that one is. But that "experience of the Absolute/True You" that can be induced by looking into the Absolute Empty Abyss/Nothingness that one really is IS not true You. Because its an experience of the Emptiness/Nothingness/Absolute that one truly is. But doing that often enough "drives the point" home, making One understand that One is really totally empty, Nothing or Nothingness at all, and with that including everything. Reality. Facilitating the Deep Identity Level Shift towards Nothingness/Reality itself, making ones mindstream conform more to the enlightened mindstream. Here, it gets quite paradoxical (but its totally logical once experienced/understood), and couldn't be different. Nice metaphor of Massaro: The Water-Pistol imagined in Infinite Nothingness. Imagine an infinite vast nothingness, nothing there at all. Infinite. Boundaryless. No change happening, so no time. Nothingness initially not aware of itself, but with the potential for sentience/being aware of arisings manifested/imagined in itself. Then, a Water-Pistol is imagined: One suddenly has object, subject, limitations, imagined appearances, a you looking at the water pistol. And if that water-pistol moves: time and change. And if it disappears, Nothingness again. Like in Deep Sleep, unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience and subject-object, if the water-pistol reappears again. If the water-pistol is not there: Infinite Consciousness again in its totally empty version (which is always here anyway, Infinite Reality itself), like before your parents were born. Buddhist systems somtimes uses that example/metaphor in a variation: The dreamer and the dream. The dream also happens/appears in True You. Similiar to the dream happening in the dreamer, being made of the "sustance" of the dreamer, or being imagined by it. Both examples (looking back over its should, and Water pistol) are not the "real thing", but nice approximations that helped me a lot to silence the mindstream, make it rest in its true nature.... And having the right view (like described above and the previous post) boosts the cycle of (or prevents it getting stuck) meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality, -> meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality and so .... ... until at some point the mindstream conforms to the real state of Reality, and Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment can happen, which is a sudden, clear, deep final shift of Ones Identity towards ever having been Infinite Reality itself, never possibly could be anything different, throwing out any and all mistaken separate self-identity-arisings/I-thoughts/I-feelings (or understanding their illusory nature when they arise in oneself in real-time, and transcending/seeing them as objects moving in oneself, and watching them elaborate/arise, or just cutting them off). Nice thing is: It is un-gaslight-able. Why? Because the gaslighting would occur in what? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Also, there are not stages to go further. Because where would they occur? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Some interesting and beautiful stuff/manifestation/its mechanisms of Infinite Reality, or rather its manifested side, the wonderful Multiverse can still be explored and celebrated, but: why allow any negative "grasping stress" arising in oneself for the experience (temporary by definition!) of more understanding/awakening to the next n+1 experience of understanding or experiencing more of the infinite possible worlds/experiences of this wonderful show? Hint: God/Reality "itself" will continue to explore the infinity of infinities of the manifested "side" of Reality forever and ever and ever.... That (Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment) can happen when all world-appearances is seen as mere imagined appearance happening/"floating" in the groundless Nothingness/True You/Reality, and all "subjective" separate-self arisings are seen as mistaken identity arisings in oneself, getting replaced by the True Deep Identity of Infinite, Groundless, Totally Empty and mere appearance Absolute Reality itself). And then, welcome home to a home you never really left. Concluding the journey that never really happened. Only appeared to do so. that includes at that stage ending trying to force it (because it has to be automized without a separate-self-I "doing" them, because who/what could try to force it? Well, the separate self. Which would re-enforce it again). Tricky until the end... with best regards from Maya The paradoxes of that advanged stage are described by the way very nicely in Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra system, preferably descibed in "Pointing out the Great Way, Brown". Please excuse my long musings... Hope nobody feels lectured too much. Selling Water by the River

And the short form video summary of my post above:

And since the True Oneself is still there (by definition) in such empty "horror" states (no observer/subject/witness, or "death without end" as you call it), what one thought one was before is just an appearance/arising/illusion/FAKE. What One really is is perceptions perceiving themselves, nondual, no self with any quality left besides just pure empty awareness watching its own arisings, totally nondual, perceptions perceiving themselves. Also: Since "one" is still there in these observerless-death-horror-states, apparently what has dropped away was some sort of temporary illusion, by definition. So its some sort of Illusion-death-horror-experience, because one is apparently still there to tell about it, and to experience it. That is where the "permanent" or "always here/never not not right here" aspect of ones True Identity becomes useful to identify illusion/temporary arising, and the real (No-)Thing. Steven Norquist describes that like a nice Horror-novel: "Haunted Universe: The True Knowledge of Enlightenment ". When you had enough time in these states, the scary/horror part drops away totally, and is replaced by the bliss of these nondual and empty states. Which is then very(!) lovely. One has a human/ego, contained within Oneself, arising in Oneself, but is no longer only that. One is the Whole Thing, and ever has been. The initial "Horror-Reaction" depends on the speed of being dropped into that Nondual Empty Totality. Psychedelics deliver probably the fastest "drop". When it happens slowly and gradually, there isn't too much Horror in some cases, maybe some scary moments (that is me?!?. But what about "real" me??? . Oh, its the other way round... ), but one gets used to that. All that is lost is an Illusion. What is gained is a Deep Identity Shift, fixing the former mistaken identity/illusion of the separate self-Gestalt-arisings, into becoming the "Whole Thing/Reality itself", and even more important: Into being eternal/invincible (no moving parts anymore that can be hurt or disintegrate, nothing that can get destroyed or even change), into being the whole Reality being able to manifest/imagine anything wanted in Itself, being made of Itself... A total Freedom, because one will never suffer since no psychological suffering arisings will ever "grip" again (at least not in this life, if the brain doesn't disintegrate like Alzheimer and so on) a total Fullness because the Love/Fullfillment/bliss freely flowes from ones Core, and a total freedom from fear, because even if in future reincarnations/shows, the Illusion of separate self-arisings will arise again, it will not affect ones true core, infinite absolute Nothingness/Reality. and probably a certain momentum/Karma of being pulled to get there again in the next play/show/life/reincarnation, if one is inclined into believing something like that. But hey, maybe being a dinosaur next time is more fun, so I am flexible on the concept of reincarnation/Karma and so on.... The Real Me will always be there, can't be not there.... The following quite is like a mathematically precise short definition of the real state of things, that deep Identity Shift of Enlightenment: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche But the dropping of that Illusion is "protected" by Maya/Lila with the strongest Horror-arisings there can be..... The Horror of being NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS. That experience is like the Wizard of Oz: Appears to be scary, but doesn't really exist. It also only just arises. Funny construction, hm? Selling Water by the River PS: I am not belittling the Horror-Death-reaction described. It is exactly that, but on the next step/steps it becomes clear it has always been like that, and only an illusion dropped that has never really been the case, only appeared so. Then it gets relaxed again... But can feel like the Boogeyman being real in the beginning. Enlightenment is realizing the separate self (the appearance/Gestalt of its merely arising thoughts/feelings/sensations and so on) doesn't exist (the "Horror-Moment" for some) NEVER EXISTED (the big relieve of realizing the mistaken identity of the past), and WILL never (really) exist the Real Oneself/Reality will never get confused or suffer, because its fully empty Infinite Consciousness/NOTHINGNESS/Reality without any specific qualities, but with the potential for awareness if a world-appearance is imagined within it) , but only can contain confusion/suffering arisings of a newly imagined separate self). then, all is good.... and great fun to look forward Francis Lucille: Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of Ignorance. Infinite Consciousness/Reality doesn't worry/suffer. and all of that is impossible to fully get before the Gateless Gate, pretty clear afterwards... PSPS: When it feels like Horror: Good, one is getting closer Further, Jed McKenna-style! And when there is never a fear-reaction when beginning to intuit deeper the rediscovered identity, then its probably not the real thing.

Please excuse the following musings from my side: Instead of saying Enlightenment is already the core of each being or each being is already enlightened (which is not incorrect in certain ways), let's try saying they all have Buddha-Nature. then lets define Enlightenment (just for the practicality of it) as the Realization/Understanding of ones Buddha-Nature/Reality, and the deep shift in Identity that comes with it. Some once said the Enlightenment is an accident. And practice (meditation, contemplation,psychedelics, ....) makes accident prone. That emphasizes that it can't be force by willpower (since an ego/separate self arisings would be that forcing, which prevent it), but one can set the right conditions for it to happen. The right conditions are for example described in detail in the Nonmeditation Yoga phase of Mahamudra in vast technical detail, for example outlined in "Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". After the Yoga of One Taste (training the so called simultaneous or nondual mind, in which nonduality with the appearances of the "external" world have is achieved), this stage follows. In the Yoga of Nonmeditation, one trains to get go/transcend/understand, disidentify,integrate of the last remains of the separate self arisings that prevent the final realization, or Great Enlightenment, Enlightenment into the Real Nature of Reality. These last subtle, very subtle feelings of Individuality (or being separate in a very very subtle way, like feeling one with the Totality, or a subtle "watching" or "understanding" the Totality/Reality) block the full realization. When everything ("external" world appearances and the last "internal" arisings of separate self, which then are the empty witness) is seen as just arising in Infinite Awareness/Consciousness/Reality, crossing over to Enlightenment can happen (but can't be forced, it is an "accident"). Quote from Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown "Basis Enlightenment [Basis=Reality. In Zen that would be Great or Final Enlightenment] : The first enlightenment moment is sometimes called samadhi-enlightenment (mnyam bzhag) because it typically occurs during continuous, uninterrupted mindfulness. When the conditions of the extraordinary meditation are exactly right, crossing over occurs. A profound shift occurs during which seemingly individual consciousness, and all ordinary sense experience and all false concepts associated with it, drop away. The vast awareness-space of the dharmakaya becomes the point of observation. Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btags pa), which drops away. Basis-enlightenment is said to be "beyond all notions," "beyond examination," "beyond representation," and "beyond false concepts" (TN, pp. 5 19-20). Tilopa says: "When the mind comes to an end, The three realms become absorbed therein.... Through the nonduality of self and other you become the blessed Buddha" The mind becomes absorbed through the force of the ripening perspective of [vast awareness-] space. Then, the five sense systems and their objects, the aggregates, and the elements also dissolve in the perspective of space. The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space." Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Yes. Beautifully written. Water by the River