Water by the River

An opportunity to work on ones Karma by staying calm. Sorry, just kidding But so far, I rejoice in being mainly ignored with my posts and counterarguments I posted on the topics of Solipsism and the like Selling Water by the River

> @Yimpa, how about stating any reasons for your statements? Or logical conclusions? Not today, darling.... all the best Water by the River

Javyfly33: As long as there is an identification process, there is delusion. As long as there is a sense of you existing within something (like a body), there is a delusion. The end. @Yimpa, how about stating any reasons for your statements? Or logical conclusions? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_consequence Javfly33 describes in his statement exactly the fundamental process of waking up. If you challenge the central deep structural process of every major spiritual traditions and system, maybe have the courtesy of giving at least some explanatory statements? Like in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning Yours truly Water by the River

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_7:16 ... just kidding Leos Teachings hold a lot of potential, and my guess is that soon as they evolve over the Solipsistic/Infinity of Gods - phase (please excuse my humble opinion), and no longer confuse a not-so-empty God-(separate)-self with the Absolute Emptiness of the Absolute/Reality, or the Absolute Empty Abyss of Nothingness of Impersonal Consciousness, the "fruits" (Matthew 7:16) will also be marvelous. I guess there is quite a high chance that that will happen. He is smart and diligent, and has published some awesome videos on bias and self-deception and the like, not to speak of all the other videos which contain really some great stuff. But in this Lila nothing is predetermined or certain. So, as always: Enjoy the show, and Bon voyage! As soon as every little subtle remaining -separate-self-arising/lense/bias/awareness of emptiness/awareness of being/awareness of being God or Reality or Alien or whatever, anything at all/awareness of being anything- is transcended/seen&let go/subject made object/ burned and is no longer colouring the experience of Infinite Reality or True Identity of Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, then "burned by the everburning flame of ones own primordial nature —all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free." - first part yours truly, second part in quotation marks by Bassui (also below). I wish him exactly this genuine peace and joy permanently in daily life that comes along the permanent realization/waking up. Then one is the whole Enchilada, watching itself, being absolutely Nothing(ness)..... and Nothingness never has a problem, only can contain them... moving around in itself like mosquitoes, but then of the slow flying version, easy to splat/transcend/cutoff. Sorry, probably not a Boddhisattva-style metaphor. More on the mosquitoes see below: So, it seems, until then: With every heroic pioneering effort, there is certain danger. Hic sunt dracones! https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hic_sunt_dracones Water by the River PS: The full quote, from Three Pillars of Zen, Kapleau: Bassui: If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none. PSPS: The rest of the Mosquito metaphor: .... And by the way, what one thinks what one is if one thinks oneself to be still anything at all: These are the mosquitos/separate-self-arisings (I-thoughts and I-feelings)/lenses/localizations, buzzing around in True You (the Totality), endlessly annoying, but making the hell of a show.... If they are too fast emerging/moving for oneself to easily squat them all at ones own convinience (genereally, keep the useful ones (the functional character) buzzing, squat the rest, the ones with "suffering" painted on them), then there is meditation/transcedence work to do. The meditation/Transcedence gets the bliss flowing by the way, which is like some smoke that slows down the moskitos, makes them easy to squat/transcend.

And short form of the post above on the Boddhisattva-Vow: Align yourself with the tendency of the Universe/Reality (evolving to ever more complex forms and waking up in as many beings as possible), vow to grow and help as much as possible in the process, both at/with yourself and "others", and get the direct grace/intuition/intelligence of the Totality/Infinite Consciousness (infinitely intelligent anyway) also manifested in your mindstream, at least in a higher degree than just closing down and only caring for ones own "stuff". Bon voyage! Water by the River

Just my humble opinion: Every thought/concept emerging in ones mindstream is not created or chosen by "oneself/ego/person/body-mind". But by the Totality of Absolute Reality, infinitely intelligent. That Absolute Reality manifests a Universe that clearly develops, and grows to more complex forms: atom, molecule, bacteria, plant, animal, human, ... , Alien Mouse, Alien anything, (sorry, just kidding), up to Intelligences govering whole Universes/Void Universes. That is called a Buddha-Field in Buddhism by the way, with a really Buddha/God governing its Buddhafield (manifestation of a Universe). There is an infinitude of Buddha-Fields/Manifestations/Gods or Buddhas governign/running Buddhafields. So a long career path if you like.... If you are interested in that, check out the Supreme Arrray Sutra: https://psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz Or: An Infinity of Gods/Buddhafields, described in 3rd/4th century CE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhāvataṃsaka_Sūtra Just maybe, if one conforms to what the Universe is doing anyway...... which is getting itself to grow, develop, and wake-up (self-realize its True Being in as many beings as possible, once the capacity is in place), and helps it waking up once one has woken up onself (which is the base of the Boddhisattva-vow: Once you wake up, not to keep that Awakening and its resulting bliss for yourself, and live happily ever after, which by the way is the easiest thing to do then, without the minor annoyance/effort of "helping" "others") telling "them" about which paths up the mountain actually work, which just circle around the mountain without ever getting closer to the top, which paths stop at 95% of the mountain, and which just rack up loads of bad Karma or drop off a cliff to start at place zero or pretty low again. Or at least ones own experiences of the path up the mountain. and promises to do something like (Boddhisattva-Vow) that once one has woken up (better not starting before, because that tends - not necessarily, but tends - to be an ego-show. And not go off to the cave happily ever after.... and overall, at least be compassionate and nice to "other" beings while on the path, as much as possible. .... Ones own Intuition and Intelligence (which is governed by the Infinite Intelligence of Reality/Totality anyway (or do you choose which thoughts/concepts emerge in your mindstream? "I" don't...) is helped by the Totality in any way the Infinite Intelligence of Reality can? Since the Totality wants to wake up, or has a tendency to do so? That can take an intuition (or feeling drawn to) of choosing working paths/methods instead of not-working ones. That can result in nice and balanced success on the relative level of live (Friends, partner, job/business/financials) making the right decissions in life having luck in ones decissions a lot of energy and motivation in ones endevours (intellectual, business, financial, any aspect of an integrated life) As Nisargadatta once said "Winnnig the grace of ones True Nature" that is at least my experience. Coincidence or not, I am happy about how things are in my life. And for the postponing ones Enlightenment/Waking Up until saving them all: That is in large parts Buddhist folklore and myth. You can not really help others beings without being awake yourself, at least not to wake up fully. Its like in an airplane: If masks drop, put on your mask first before helping others put on their mask. Because if you don't, you can go unconsciousness (and the "other" too), before you can help anyone. Like every Religion for the masses, in which Buddhism also takes part, there are some nice background-story that are maybe a little bit to rosy and naive. This one probably belongs to it. Help yourself and wake up (put the mask on), then help others put the mask on. But be nice and benevolent to "others" while putting on the mask, don't kick them out of their seats on your way to the mask, so to say. Then, who in his right mind wouldn't choose to make such an agreement/"deal" (Boddhisattva Agreement) with Reality? And of course honestly and authentically, Infinite Intelligence already knows all of your mindstream, cause it IS that already. And Reality listens very openly to ones mindstreams, its intentions and prayers, and can respond miraculously to it (for example in the emotions is manifests in the mindstream: Loving or annoyed for example). Because the opening of ones mindstream and consciousness, its emptiness and its emergent thoughts, is already are direct link to the Universal Mind of the Universe and Infinite Consciousness already, by definition. There are not two "consciousnesses" anywhere..... It is literally the same. Of course its all a dream, an Infinite Universal Mind imagining a dream. But at least yours truly prefers a nice dream to a nightmare. So who in his right mind would say its all a dream, its all imagined, and ignore the laws of Karma (of which the Boddhisattva-vow forms a large part) and life a miserable life ignoring cause and effect ever after? Well, you guessed, only a confused ignorant separate self under the spell of illusion.... “My realization is higher than the sky. But my observance of karma is finer than grains of flour.", Padmasambhava That means nothing else than although one keeps the Absolute Perspective of its all an arising in Infinite Consciousness/Absolute Reality, one is not so stupid to think that this Lila/Dream has a very consequent structure, is very coherent (different than dreams at night), and if one shoots oneself in the knee (Karma-wise, or literally), one is going to be hurting/limping for the rest of ones life.... And knowing about the tendence of the Universe to grow towards more complexity and awakening, and ignoring that, or not taking some kind of Boddhisattva-vow (the wise/intelligent form of it), is similiar to shooting oneself in the knee, at least in a certain perspective. And a "round-out" from the Absolute Side of the Street, to keep it balanced ), courtesy of Francis Lucille - "Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of ignorance. From the perspective of [Absolute] Consciousness: Who cares?!". So either way, its show on! Bon voyage! Water by the River

Thank you for this voice of sanity. That is (at least in my humble perspective) a very sane and much needed truthful statement on a relative level. Hope you don't mind the following musings: Of course one can "shoot" at such a statement with a statement of the absolute level, like: That is all duality. But doing the "Absolute side of the street trick" to kill something coming from the "relative side of the street" because ones ego (or whatever) doesn't like it, one contradicts one self, because on the relative level there are truths and stuff that work (like diamond cuts glass, but not the other way round, and certain views tend to bring one closer to actually awakening to Absolute Truth, and other "truths" just lead to more self-contraction, ego and narcissm). Especially those views that don't boost self-importance and narcissm, because they tend to cause less blind-spots than humble views, and don't kill ones progress on the spiritual path. And: Any critique coming from the "Absolute Side of the street" is also necessarily using duality, or language. So for the folks that like to kill any statement they don't like or that rubs their ego (or whatever) the wrong way with a statement from the Absolute Side of the street (that is duality, its all imagined, whatever...., fill in the blanks), one might find this little concept helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction And of course Nagarjuna and the Two Truths: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine And if one still likes to use statements from the Absolute Side of the Street: Maybe you like to use something like written below [bold markings by yours truly]? At least in my humble view a very beautiful paragraph by Bassui. So, there is nothing really new under the sun, they discussed & solved this topic in India a loooooong time ago. Yet, here we are, still seeing battles in this forum with one side shooting with "Absolute Truth"-Statements on stuff that needs to be discussed on a relative level... Fasten your seatbelts, get popcorn ready, and enjoy the show Water by the River Bassui: If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none.

Yes. Nice that you write this post. Very true. >"Solipsism, yes. But from the point of view of God (which is not a point of view, obviously, but using that word as a means to understand ourselves). Not from the point of view of the ego [separate self]." Not from the point of view of the ego/separate self! And Solipsism from "the view" of the One without a second, or Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Suchness/Reality itself doesn't even really need to be mentioned. Because there literally is nothing else, like in "never could be". So it doesn't really make sense talking about it. To whom? "Others"? The consciousness of the mind-stream of other beings can be directly intuited/felt/realized to be ones own empty consciousness at certain levels of Awakening. But Impersonal, Totally Empty Concsiousness. It "wouldn't work" any different way, it has to be empty. Technically speaking, "IT" would not be compatible to fit into the perspective/mind-stream/consciousness of another being/perspective if it weren't totally empty. Just Awareness, AWARE, and nothing else. Empty. Impersonal. How could a consciousness with "my" personal properties "fit" into the mindstream of another being. It couldn't. Therefor, Nothingness, totally Empty Impersonal Consciousness, with another mindstream (feelings/thoughts/subtle feelings of being/separateness/....), structurally exactly the same as ones own mindstream, with the same essence - Nothingness. Which is also the same essence of very appearance of the visual field also. All of that can be directly realized. With certain levels of Awakening, one can directly intuit that the separate-self illusion arisings (I-thoughts, I-feelings) in the mindstream of other beings has exactly the same structure than ones own mindstream (and its I-thoughts, I-feelings). One doesn't read the content of thoughts (some do), but directly intuits their structure/process, in the exactly same impersonal consciousness than the essence of ones own mindstream. And that essence of Nothingness/Impersonal Consciousness is also the same essence of EVERY appearance of the world in the visual field. Also, a direct experience in Awakenings, and something that gets constant in Enlightenment (to paraphrase for example the Mahamudra-system): "Crossing Over to Enlightenment happens when every thought/concept/feeling ("internal" arising) and every appearance (world/visual field form) is seen as empty-thought-concept and empty-appearance arisings in Infinite Awareness-Space". And that is what one is: IMPERSONAL Empty Consciousness. Or better "Nothingness", to make sure that nothing is projected onto it, or that its not fully empty. It is literally Nothing, but with the capacity for sentience. And even that isn't always active, see Deep-Sleep. Definitely, it doesn't include separate-self arisings/confusion/illusion arisings "on top". That is "the screen", and its capacity for sentience/awareness/consciousness. To make it specific: Talking about Solipsism could only make sense from totally empty impersonal Consciousness or Nothingness. And then it is not necessary! (Because it invites more mis-understandings than the clarity it delivers). Talking about Solipsism from any ego/separate self perspective doesn't make sense. And if you are at that empty level of infinite (!) impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness, one without a second, it is redundant and totally unnecessary to talk even about Solipsism. >As long as there is an identification process, there is delusion Yes, exactly. And any form of Solipsism applied to the level of the delusion/relative/ego/separate-self level only can increase narcissm or (separate-)self-grandiosity, which is the No.1 building block of the separate self, the most seductive one, the most dangerous delusion mechanism of Maya. One of the very last things to go. (And then one can guess what makes Solipsism so attractive for egos/separate selfs? Well, one can go ahead confusing the little separate self/ego with the full glory of God/Kosmos/Reality, and feel veeeery important, and boast around with absolute claims.) That (the danger described above, and other dangers) is why by the way in Tibetan Buddhism (and practically all spiritual traditions) Realized Ones normally NEVER speak about their attainments, and at least tend to downplay them, state them smaller, because that tends to boost ones self-importance. And that is not good, neither before or after Enlightenment. Brings bad Karma, not as happy-as-can-be-life. And the same holds also for the not-realized or not stable realized ones. Not publicly announcing ones realization has got other negative effects (like not much examples, or making it appeat to be nearly impossible to reach), but saves oneself (and others) in being more on the "humble side") from the burden of self-importance/self-grandiosity. So its a balance, see one of my last posts with the Video of Ken Wilber. And second factor: Even if you know Absolute Reality and are enlightened, that does in no way mean that ones relative life automatically already expresses the potential that this realization opens up in terms of compassion, ethical living, and embodying the truth. It provides the potential to do so, and also tends to unfold this way. But it is not assured. Ken Wilbers "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up". Over the long-term, when Enlightenment becomes more common, only the "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up" stable and mature versions of it will find group-approval/consensus. Because only that version of it is "cool", the other versions are "less than cool", or "pretty uncool". And if with Solipsism one can boost the importance/self-importance/grandiosity to hilarious proportions, confusing ego/separate self with Reality/God, and claiming stuff that is just not appropriate to be claimed for any separate self/any perspective in the Great Net of Indra/Reality/any being, but only for God proper (Nothingness, Impersonal totally empty Infinite Consciousness), well, then one has exchanged the former separate self with a new vastly-blown-up"God"-ego-separate-self, an ego/separate self blown up to cosmic dimensions and self-importance. And then good luck transcending that, and the suffering that goes along necessarily as with any separate-self identity. The big big risk that at least yours truly can see on this forum: Exactly that tends (not at every case, depends probably on the baseline-"blessing"/Karma of narcissm and self-grandiosity already in place) to happen with frequent usage of Psychedelics. 95% of the properties of Infinite Reality get revealed (the relative side, like ones identity with the whole universe (this Infinite Void-Universe, Buddha-Field, or "God" if you are so inclinded to call it that way), but not the fully empty/impersonal Absolute side of it, Absolute Impersonal Emptiness or Nothingness/Abyss that can never be seen. (And by the way, as Steven Wolinsky for example writes based on his Awakenings/visions, there are and infinite Number of Infinite Other Void-Universes/Buddha-Fields just like ours, each with a God/Buddha at its center running the "show", while being it. And none of that is the Absolute, its all relative stuff, manifestation. Not the absolute empty Abyss of Nothingness.... I remember a video somebody once maid about an "Infinity of Gods", sovereign just like oneself.... "). At least not completely, because the Psychedelics don't kill the last remnants/rest of the last subtle separate-self arisings (mainly "Individuality", or a very subtle hard to spot feeling of still being there as anything at all, or an Awareness "of" Emptiness/Nothingness/Nonduality/whatever. Still an Awarness "of"...). And, to make it even more seductive or dangerous: One is not aware what this last "individuality", or "Awareness of ..." is, or that that is still happy and busy and active, destroying ones crossing over to Complete Realization, making one still suffer. If one would understand these last remnancts of Illusion, of "Individuality", one would instantly wake up and stay that way. Knowing what one really is. If Realization of ones Identity with the Absolute Infinite Reality/Nothingness ends after the trip, maybe there was still something active blocking the full Realization throughout? Little remark, included after a waaay to long rambling: If somebody has truly read until here, and thinks all of this post is all BS, please quote the number 147, to show that one has actually read most of that dry and boring musings of yours truly until here... ( : . Thank you, very kind. Well, nothing of what I have written will proove anything for those persons having fallen heavily for that trap. especially those who do it just by thinking and watching videos, and boosting their narcissm already with that tremendously, and didn't even walk the Psychedelic path properly, but are parotting concepts & dogma from someone else. In my humble opinion, it doesn't speak for the forum that such an ego-show can happen without more highlighting these obvious mistakes. So for the "all is understood by watching the vids, but never did a trip"-fraction: Maybe consider taking one of the harder psychedelics like 5-MeO, have most/95%+ of your ego/separate self handed on a platter to you, and then come back with maybe a little bit more existential humility and awe in the face of Infinite Consciousness/Reality, and the way it can easily kill 95% of you with a little chemical and smile while doing so. Luckily, normally their tone of writing, loaded with self-grandiosity, narcissm, and writing style that generally is not "so filled" with bliss/love/compassion as one would normally expect of Divinity/Absolute/God-Realization, showing for every reader with at least some form of working spiritual compass in the heart, that their suffering probably has not ended, and they are peddling conceptual ideas and not actual realization. and if they "camouflage" their writings a bit more towards the "humble and loving/compassion side", at least it gets more pleasant and softer to read And as always, Bon Vovage for "everybody"! Selling Water by the River

... and its the old conflict between sudden and gradual awakening. That conflict happened in every spiritual system, for example very famous in Zen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism So it is probably not the newest show in town.... Well, I prefer the integral solution of "nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time", so both perspectives hold a certain degree of truth. Which can then be integrated. Selling Water by the River

I also understand the reaction of Breakingthewall here. @Inliytened1 and Breakingthewall: How about both perspectives are important: (1) The steps (or awakenings, or Kenshos/Satoris, Enlightenments (not the Final Basis Enlightenments) or temporary openings to the real state of things, whatever you want to call them) to Absolute Reality/Ones True being are important, since they are aligning the individual mindstream more with the enlightenened mindstream, increasing its potential to finally wake up fully. That is still happening in the dream, but the dream can be more or less lucid. But these experiences are very important. So maybe something like "waking up fully" is sudden, its either or, its an "accident", but previous "awakenings, or Kenshos/Satoris, Enlightenments" make accident-prone. Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment/Final Enlightenment/Fully Waking Up: The full waking up is then a sudden, unmistaken waking up to the True Reality of both oneself and Reality, nondual. The description of the Tibetan Mahamudra System, and Basis Enlightenment, describes exactly that: (1) "Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash [small "awakenings/enlightenments or whatever one wants to call it" but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience." (2) Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event [sudden, awake or not], wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations At least from my perspective it doesn't look so complicated to align the different statements/wordings/descriptions/experiences/views concepts into a picture that can contain them all, that is spacious enough in an integral way to make room for all experiences and perspectives in a coherent picture. Water by the River

Actually, on my bucket list is offering courses in “1984” doublethink, Steven Norquist style: http://www.hauntedpress.net/What_is_Enlightenment.html "You basically have to employ a little Orwellian “1984” doublethink. You have to pretend to believe, while always knowing the truth." Or how to improve ones imaginary Karma while Selling Water by the River No, just kidding . Gotta stay humble.... Selling Water by the River PS: And the coolest answer to the next question: Are you enlightened, Sir !? Ken Wilbers answer: Enlightened enough.... " In Zen are you enlightened what was always taken as a trick because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't if you say yes then you clearly... no individual is enlightened . but if you say no then you're just an ignoramus, you're an idiot" "almost all I can say is enlightened enough if you say more than that you're just a braggart and almost certainly wrong and if you say less than that then you're worthless you know and you're also not telling the truth"

Ah, you know, too busy Selling Water by the River for doing that... Water by the River

Agree, important point. Since I am quoting already a lot today, I hope you don't mind me hijacking your comment, and quoting some passages from "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown" again. Maybe that is interesting for some.... Bold markings and [...] by yours truly. THE OUTCOME: THE NATURE OF ENLIGHTENMENT Contrary to the slow ripening of meditative experience throughout the preliminary and essential stages of meditation, and even the gradual ripening of awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] during extraordinary meditation, crossing over to enlightenment is an immediate and compelling event, wherein the mental continuum undergoes a series of fundamental and enduring reorganizations. One implication of the term nonmeditation is that the "journey ends." There are no more stages. Pema Karpo says,The journey ends. Going by stages stops. There are no stages that go anywhere else. You find the perfection of everything that came before, without stages. (PK, f. rib) There are no stages (sa med) beyond this point ... a. Basis Enlightenment The first enlightenment moment is sometimes called samadhi-enlightenment (mnyam bzhag) because it typically occurs during continuous, uninterrupted mindfulness. When the conditions of the extraordinary meditation are exactly right, crossing over occurs. A profound shift occurs during which seemingly individual consciousness, and all ordinary sense experience and all false concepts associated with it, drop away. The vast awareness-space of the dharmakaya becomes the point of observation. Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btags pa), which drops away. Basis-enlightenment is said to be "beyond all notions," "beyond examination," "beyond representation," and "beyond false concepts" (TN, pp. 5 19-20). Tilopa says: When the mind comes to an end, The three realms become absorbed therein.... Through the nonduality of self and other you become the blessed Buddha. The mind becomes absorbed through the force of the ripening perspective of [vast awareness-] space. Then, the five sense systems and their objects, the aggregates, and the elements also dissolve in the perspective of space. The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space. Basis enlightenment leads to a very "new view of the way the realized mind stays" (TN, p. 5 17). When the concept of individual consciousness or "mind" is finally eradicated, a profound rearrangement takes place. Awakened wisdom[Awakened Awareness] now comes forth unobstructed, no longer as a brief glimpse or flash but as that which saturates all experience. It has no real support (brten), yet serves as the ground or basis for all experience. Therefore the first moment of enlightenment is called basis enlightenment. During the ordinary special-insight meditations the practitioner searched for certain knowledge within arising events of the ordinary mental continuum. During the extraordinary samadhi meditations the practitioner located the simultaneous mind as the source of certain knowledge. Now, with basis enlightenment, knowledge takes on a new epistemological locus of knowledge. Awakened wisdom comes forth but not in association with either the ordinary or the simultaneous mind. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness]has no basis. It is without coming Ong med) and without going ('song med), in that it does not arise from the seeming activity of the relative mental continuum. Awakened wisdom [Awakened Awareness] is self-originated (rang 'byung). It is simply there, and with basis enlightenment, stays there. Basis enlightenment is called, "wisdom beyond the world" (TN, p. 542)." So also according to Mahamudra/Tibetan Buddhism, the Deep Identity Level Shift of Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment is sudden (contrary to the slowly ripening of Awakened Awareness before), self-evident, and there is no stage beyond it. Awake or not. Other Traditions call the shifts that happen before that event "Awakenings", some even Enlightenments. But qualified Enlightenments, "smaller" Enlightenments, partial gradual "awakenings" refining the mindstream to make it conform to the Big Shift, awake or not. Its a question of choosing the words. But they tend to differentiate clearly between the final thing/Great Enlightenment/Waking Up, and the events before. I agree with Inliytened1 that if we call this Great Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment/ Waking Up, that one is either awake or not. Digital, either or. Before being awake, one can maybe postulate there are gradual changes/"Awakenings", preparing for the final big shift (called crossing over to Enlightenment, or Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra). Or waking up, like in awake or not. If one knows or has realized what one truly deeply is, one knows what one is, and also what everything else is and only can ever be. Awake or not. If one is not sure, one is still asleep/dreaming. Awakening n+1 ain't it.... Selling Water by the River

Normal full-time business career, married but no kids, and a hobby also... I was a bookworm for a long time, reading hundreds of books, with a focus on meditation/spiritual systems. I wanted to find the most efficient ones there are. Considering what that brought into my life, I wasn't too unlucky doing that. It all can be done, though honestly I wouldn't be where I am at without the book that i shamelessly promote, "Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown". You know, Selling Water by the River, and especially that book... . And other books from Mahamudra/Dzogchen also. It is a very efficient system, with limited need for sitting meditation if done correctly. I used and still use most of the day off the pillow for meditation/mindfulness practice, or just staying in my True Being. If no absolutely distracting mental work is necessary, one can use pretty much all day, even meetings and standard work to stay mindful in the sense of " Simultaneous Mind (nondual, 3. stage of Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste)" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind" (switching off the separate self, 4. stage of Mahamudra, Nonmeditation Yoga). That brings the momentum/time/hours in meditation that probably most of us need. To be honest, I had to read the book a lot of times (at least stages 1-4 Mahamudra, Skill of Reckongition, Yoga of Unelaboration, Yoga of One Taste, Nonmeditation Yoga). At one point, I had to wait several years to understand the Yoga of Unelaboration, which is really hard to understand. A cycle of read, try, read again, understand a bit more, read again, even more, meditate, get certain states, read again, misunderstand, read again, understand, and so on.... But with progress and increasing meditation experience one can get what is described, and "go upwards in circles" of meditation experience -> understanding/realization -> reading more, understanding more of the system -> meditation exerpience -> understanding/realization and so on, n+1. Yes. In essence, one gets love from others, and self-esteem (aka validation with concepts), and safety/security. Sure, at a certain stage of development one could go into the desert when the flow of love/bliss from ones True Core is fully on (It is a nice indicator to check how transcended the separate self really is). But to live a healthy and integrated life, why not take the love, validation of self-esteem from "others" on top? It also provides a good calibration to live a healthy, integrated and balanced relative life in society. Doing the desert thing at some point is rather easy... Business Meetings is where the challenge is , Death by a-bit-less-intelligent-than-can-be-Powerpoint-presentations and meetings and so on... Still working on that, and, admittingly, having fun while doing so... Even the more or less Awake Ones live a more healthy and integrated life when integrating in a healthy way in society, or at least trying to. One can do the Ramana-thing of walking off into the wildness and forget eating a little bit. But why should one do it? If one has taken at least a little bit of compassion training/Boddhisattva-vow/whatever, one probably feels better living an integrated and wholesome life in society. Selling Water by the River

No, that dream just happened. I didn't contemplate about that too much. Sure I did contemplate the topic, but I never had real problems with that. A bit yes, but not too much. Maybe because when that contemplation of "other" became a real existential topic, I was already practicing (and concentrated on) staying in boundless changeless limitless Awakened Awareness (infinite, nondual, mere appearance). When you are in that state, it doesn't freak you out that "others" don't really exist, but one can directly intuit that the same Impersonal Consciousness that Oneself and Reality really is, is also the substratum/essence (Nothingness/Consciousness) of their mindstream. You can intuit/feel their Illusion-arisings of I-feelings/I-thoughts of being something specific as being exactly(!) the same as the illusion arisings in ones own mindstream. The exact same mechanism how "others" fall for the illusion, as oneself does and did. Once one knows the structure/pattern/gestalt/essence of ones own Illusion separate self arisings, one sees them in "others", or other perspectives of the same consciousness. That doesn't cause shock, but limitless empathy. It is You (not the separate self, but the real you, Impersonal Consciousness, totally empty), litereally You looking through all eyes. That is the core and source of all empathy, but now without any filters and flowing freely, directly intuiting und knowing that it is You looking through all eyes. Then, where should the shock come from? All beings are children of the Real You, Impersonal Empty Consciousness (not a of separate self blown up to God-like proportions). Including what one formerly thought was "oneself". Only the separate self arisings/gestalt need "others" for love, validation, belongingness, self-esteem, the whole Maslow-Pyramid stage 1-4 up and down is made out of that. Couldn't be different to get a society going & surviving. Impersonal Consciousness and the bliss flowing from it doesn't need it. So it could make sense to transcend all of that already to a large degree before entering the terrain where there is no "other". The gentlemen who wrote "Enlightenment: Behind The Scenes, Leavitt" describes his final Enlightenment experience when he directly realized that he IS his daugther. Literally the same consciousness. Not as metaphor, but literally. Didn't cause a shock, but infinite love. Disclaimer (not written for you Breakingthewall): All of the above is only valid when one speaks from an Identity and mindstream of Impersonal Empty Consciousness, not from the perspective of a psychedelic boosted separate self (or even worse, not even having the psychedelic experience and just playing playing mind-games having watched some videos), blowing itself up to God-like dimensions and playing God. The entrance price for all of that is literally the transcendence/death of large or most parts of the separate self, and the final price is its complete demise/complete transcendence (transcendence of the separate self part, and then include the remaining functional character. Transcend and integrate, not transcend and disassociate, see Ken Wilber). Death/Transcendence not of the functional character/Ego, but of the separate self arisings. The main indicator for the separate self still being well, alive and active is narcissm, or self-grandiosity and self-importance. Preferably in the form of preaching from upon high. On the other side, that is not even a bad thing, because then every newbie with at least some intuition, common sense, and a not too narcisstic karma can spot that from a mile away. Instead of transcending/slowly annihilating the separate self, one boosts it up to God-like dimensions with doing that. Good luck ever transcending that! Doing something like that can destroy ones life. There have been cases like that, final station mental asylum or next life, or in the "best case" just a miserable unintegrated life full of suffering- end of disclaimer - I don't know if that view/frame helps. Maybe it is a nice exercise to feel deeply into the essence/consciousness of what you are, and then deeply into the consciousness/sentience of "another"? Its the same Nothingness/Consciousness. One can directly experience that (if oneself is completely empty, just pure impersonal consciousness). It is not philosophy or a nice idea, but a direct experience. But one has to be completely empty. The own lense of perception has to be completely empty of separate self arisings (=high speed cut off of any of these arisings before they grip/hypnotize oneself and elaborate fully, Trekchö-style. Needs familiarity, training and high-speed of attention/spotting, aka the goal of meditation. Please see my last decription-posting of the Pointing out the Great Way Mahamudra system, link below), only then one can intuit that. A colored lense with stains will not let that intuition/understanding pass. As second step, one can feel that essence of every appearance of the visual field as Nothingness, hovering as mere appearance in infinite Nothingness, at a certain point of practice Which is necessary at some point, because as Daniel Brown said: One can not understand the Totality/Wholeness from a partialized stance. Nonduality has to be there before that understanding. One has to literally become all phenomena appearing in the Infinite Boundless Changeless Awakened Awareness field (that is Nonduality), and then see what all of that is and who or what is aware of that. Then, at the end of the Road, Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness IS everything: Your Mindstream, the mindstream of others, the appearance of the world in the visual field, every though/feeling. Infinite, boundless, limitless, nondual all there ever could be. Everything that could ever appear appears in that, made out of that suchness/Nothingness/Consiousness as its essence. Then, one experiences/becomes/is... Home/safe/Indestructable/eternal: And that actually is not shocking. But if feels like one is at home, now and always, wherever you go in relative reality. No Fear: Somewhere in the Upanishads it says "Where there is other there is fear". If there is only oneself, which is indestructable (no moving parts, just Nothingness that can't disappear), there is no fear. Infinite Love: The recognition that there is no other in the whole kosmos, but only the suchness of ones being, bound together in a infinite nondual field of love Infinite Freedom: When the bliss/love of your own indestructable infinite true being flows, what could you ever want that you don't get, or ever be taken away from you? Total freedom. Then we have Eternal/Indestructable, Fearless, Love, and infinite Freedom. But before one gets there, the illusion-mechanism/Maya/Lila had to place some strong "illusion-protection-mechanisms" in front of these properties of the enlightened mindstream, because if it wouldn't scare the separates selves, who in his right mind wouldn't attach his own mindstream to these properties of the enlightened mindstream. And the strongest one is probably the need for "other" or "others", Maslow stage 1-4. Somehow I mostly fail to write short posts. Maybe I need to go to a training "Concise writing for Dummies" who went off the deep end of Emptiness... Selling Water by the River

I think you will be doing fine. There is nothing to loose but an illusion. >To let go everything is very difficult and scary. But don't ot let go, is a jail. I understand you very well. Several years ago, I had a dream. That was before deeper insights into reality happened. I died multiple times in that dream (literally, by falling, smashing, other funny stuff also), and the visual field went off, only a darkness suffused with light remained. Not the usual blackout (unaware of itself), but an infinite Nothingness suffused with light remained. That was a causal state (using Ken Wilbers terminology), which I later realized. A state quite near to Absolute Reality (meaning easy to intuit the properties of Absolute Reality. Absolute Reality is always here, but sometimes more easy to intuit), but not unaware like Deep Sleep. Nothing there, Infinite, but still somehow aware (suffused with light). That happened multiple times, and during one of the last deaths, I got a bit cocky, saying to myself something like "okaaay, now show me if I can really die. Lets do this again". Dream-Death, and again the same time this causal state of an infinite Nothingness suffused with light appeared. Then, again I died, this Nothingness suffused with light. No objects, no time. A few seconds or a vastly longer time, I couldn't tell. Timeless. It was the same timeless Always Here Mind that I intuited/realized later more clearer. Then I woke up to "real" life, again passing through this Infinite Nothingness suffused with light. What somehow went with all of that was somehow the fear of dying all those "Enlightenment" Deaths, of being Nothing at all, Impersonal, an infinite vast reality perceiving itself. When it began happening to become really more and more impersonal, like beyond my comfort zone, I was a bit shocked like "okay, impersonal? really? Not "myself", the character?" But soon I knew again and realized what would always remain, being that which could never not be there. Indestructable, totally empty, like "no-moving-parts". Eternal. But with the potential for sentience, and to become/manifest anything IT wanted. Independend if a Dinosaur, another human, an animal, or whatever else would manifest in my mindstream/perspective as subject in another illusion/Lila. I even became grateful when a dream appeared that was not lucid, like the fun/experience of having the chance to believe such an illusion again. That took away the fear of being less than lucid once more. So the after-glow of remembering that dream ended a phase pretty fast that could have been prolonged for sure. Nowadays, I am very thankful for that dream, although I only recognized its meaning, significance and effects much later, when significant parts of the separate self died, or rather got seen through for the illusions that they were. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Actually, I am in the lucky situation that I never will be needing to charge anything for the stuff I am selling. So technically, its not selling. More like annoying with meditation-propaganda... . And no, no rich parents Selling Water by the River is the title of a book and the statement of a Zen Master, meaning that when one is talking about meditation/Enlightenment, one is sneakely "selling" the people what they already have/are: "Water by the River". I went a bit over the top with the length of a posting I just made: In that, concerning the nature of thoughts: And maybe one more perspective: Thoughts are subtle objects, appearing and "moving" in you. WIth practice, a certain directionality/movement gets intuited, as strange as that sounds. Another subtle object is the mathmatical object of the square-root of minus 1, in mathematics called "i". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_unit You can never see it, but it exists, as mathematical object. If you ever had to do alternating current calculation using complex numbers like i, as yours truly had to do quite some time ago , the usefulness of "i" and other stuff becomes apparent pretty fast. So, "i" is real, but you can never see it. A subtle object. Can be understood, experienced, can be calculated with, has useful applications doing so in the "real" world. And you can never talk about i and doing the practical stuff with others who had the experience of understanding what i is. And sorry in advance, but I can't avoid doing that : For the all-is-imaginary-fanclub: Here you have "real" imagined numbers ("i"). Here it is completely technically correct to talk about "it is all imaginary". Because who in his right mind would be strange enough to define the imaginary number i, the impossible square root of minus 1. The only thing I am waiting for is for one of the "all-is-imaginary-fanclub" to actually start doing calculations in the imaginary unit and complex number plane, and then "correctly" saying: It is all imaginary. Sorry for the little disgression. So what is "i"? A subtle object, floating in you like a thought. "i" is an object, some thoughts of you are already an object you can work with. Some are not, you look through them like a lense, a subjective arising. Meditation is making all (I-)thoughts and I-feelings also to objects you see moving within yourself. They move in you, but you are (not only) them.... If you know the nature of thoughts fully (their essence is Nothingness, or Infinite Empty Impersonal Consciousness), you would be enlightened and know and understand the true Nature both of yourself and Reality. The essence or nature of any appearance in the visual field can also be directly apprehended as the same Nothingness, the same Suchness of Reality. So it is well worth it... Selling Water by the River

I already thought for a fraction of a second while reading this that you have gone of the deep end and converted to the fraction that fell in love with their own reflected image in certain ponds... . Imaginary Pond and reflection of course. Really happy to hear. >It is not meditation that has led me to this but observation and deconstruction and psychedelics, which have made it possible to break the wall/shield of the mental stream and open myself to myself. I am really interested how that continues. Psychedelics, meditation, and intelligent deconstruction/contemplation of the separate self arisings/Gestalt (while not going falling for the trap of the "I am God" Narcissm-Show of the separate-self declaring everything is just imagined), aiming for a Deep Identity Level Shift towards Truth, must be a powerful path. While that path is probably not as hilarious for the readers as the Narcissm-show of the "its-all-imagined-anyway" club, it is a path with a heart. A path that actually leads somewhere very beautiful, that can bring freedom from the claws of the self-contraction of the separate self, instead of hugging these claws and declaring them "imagined". And hoping that the pain and suffering which are the nature of these claws magically disappears. Bon voyage! Water by the River

DMT Quest has made two books and several fascinating videos. https://dmtquest.org/questions-for-the-lion-tamer-1/ and It is really fascinating stuff, that can explain a lot of other phenomena in an integral way. Among other things, they postulate that the Endohuasca-system is triggered by a) Meditation https://dmtquest.org/meditation-hypnosis/ Get Gamma-frequency of the brain up, and the endohuasca-system probably starts flowing.... In Ken Wilbers system, subjective states (Upper Left Quadrant) have correlates in the body (Upper Right Quadrant), and vice-versa. Causing positive feedback-loops, increasing lucidity and nonduality, bliss and so on. The transformation of the whole self/identity, in stages, making states permanent.... Principle: States are free, stages are earned. When the mindstream conforms to the requirements of these systems, stabilizing and enlightened mind-stream. Daniel Brown did a study with his "Pointing out the Great Way" students and a advanced Brainscanner. Result: Gamma-waves boosted to the max.... Maybe helps to take transforming the baseline state via meditation to "trippy"-levels more serious... b) Dark Retreat (The Tibetans do it for 100s of years, several other tribes do it, tends to induce visions. Some kind melatonin-pineal-gland.connection). c) Special Breathing (Wim Hoefer, Holotropic Breathing, Tummo, ...) d) Other stuff (Near Death experiences, cancer in certain areas of the brain (pineal gland), Kundalini, ...). trigger the body-endohuasca-system. Some meditation-states, especially advanced ones once stabilized in daily life (post-samadhi), or hardcore pillow-meditation-states, are quite "trippy" and (1) change the visual field towards "not external/nondual", "lucid,vivid,bright, groundless mere appearance, Nothingness as its essence, "hovering" in Infinite Nothingness". (2) kill the localization sensation of being in the body, making one no longer localized in the infinite field, but being the unbounded wholeness of Reality. (3) And bliss. Ken Wilbers once linked that drug addicts of Heroin get previews to the bliss of certain meditative states, and of course get addicted to that. Although I have never tried Heroin and am not so stupid to try, in my experience I can confirm (1) (2) and (3). And having these states in place, it becomes possible to intuit and realize what is aware of the whole Enchilada, being also its essence: Nothingness. Perceptions perceiving themselves. Ones True Identity. There are definitely bodily/energetic/chemical changes going on in these transformations or stabilizing these states as stages. The two books are actually a good reading for everyone belittling meditation and the permanent and deep transformations possible (@Breakingthewall, I know you don't and are open. I just write in general, as always). The states induced by psychedelics that are ripping ones heart open to Infinite Love, bathing ones sould and being in heavenly bliss, and opening the separate self contraction to the Infinite, are also available to the body by endogenous means. Or else, how would the stereotypical enlightened one with a halo depicted around the head "oozing" bliss "work"? Auto-Suggestion? The receptors in the body are there anyway, else psychedelics wouldn't work. Just add a system where an enlightened mindstream (empty, fast enough to spot separate-self-arisings, very high Gamma/Delta-waves/meditation states) triggers the body-Endohuasca-system, and one has hypothesized a possible mechanism growing and transforming baseline-consciousness to the Infinite. A system that could explain the manifestation of the potential of the human being, ranging from atom-molecule-animal-primate-human to Infinite Being/True Identity, ACTUALIZED on a permanent and stable basis. Certainly not boosting trippy states to the " stratosphere" where one can no longer "walk straight", but a lovely way to life ones life... ACTUALIZED sounds (at least to me) more like: Realized ones potential, like in "permanently". Not only for the trip, and then again with the next trip... That would be "actualized temporarily...." And of course "Exo"-Huasca of course also works.... Selling Water by the River

Having fallen totally in love with the mirage image of the separate self in the pond. The Greeks really had some mythology, like Narcissus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_(mythology) And all other ones who came before are complete idiots. I mean, Ken Wilber said "nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time". And since all traditional spirituality is "UTTER BULLSHIT", these guys must "have made it" to be smart enough to be wrong all the time. Bon voyage Water by the River

Razard86, in my humble opinion, you didn't answer the question of OBEler. But maybe OBEler got it, and I didn't. The other beings/perspectives don't collapse or end when you or OBEler (or I) die/end. Indras Net and Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness (which we really are, already now, we just "forget" all other perspectives/beings) will continue fine without all of "us". To think it all ends if a certain perspective is switched off is solipsistic madness. Thinking the Totality stops when one separate perspective is shut off... Its like looking a bit too deep into the pond like Narcissus did, and boosting it with the power of an Infinity of Gods. Don't you intuit that the exactly same consciousness/Nothingness that you are is every other being? When I look at other beings, I intuit the same consciousness that I really am (and every being is). Their mindstream arisings arise in that Nothingness/Consciousness exactly as in mine. There is no difference. That Nothingness is the essence of everything, all perspectives, every appearance in Reality. Nondual, infinite Nothingness, Reality itself. The same Nothingness/Consciousness that we all are can continue very well without you and me, and anybody else. It can't go anywhere. "It" is already everyhting, everyone, infinite and total. You only get problems with answering these questions if you confuse Totally Empty Consciousness/Nothingness with something not so empty. Like a totally empty separate self/witness, with some individuality still left, hovering in a nondual field. Especially easy to get there with psychedelics. Or even worse: "Thinking" ones way there, watching one Youtube-video or two too many... Going down that road, one has to use construct funny concepts like Infinity of Gods (very nondual indeed), and other Solipsistic funny stuff, making space for a separate self blown up to God-like proportions. The funny thing with Solipsism is: If you proclaim you are the only one having a sentient perspective, every one else having also sentience and consciousness knows that you are, well, a bit nuts... Probably this here is peak solipsistic/Infinity-of-Gods madness. The top level to where you can drive a still separate self Gestalt, proclaiming it is God and that there are an Infinity of other Gods. But hey, what do I know.... And now please throw some arguments from the Absolute Side of the Street at me Bon Voyage Water by the River

@Razard86 You won: The prize for the most exclamation marks definitely goes to you. The separate self arisings arise in the mindstream of most sentient beings, like any other arising. I never said the separate self is a thing. I wrote Gestalt and structure. A process, an arising, flowing in Reality. It is not a thing, but a Gestalt, like everything else. There are no "things" in the whole of Reality, only appearing patterns, with more or less continuity/structure. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gestalt "A collection of physical, biological, psychological or symbolic elements that creates a whole, unified concept or pattern which is other than the sum of its parts, due to the relationships between the parts (of a character, personality, entity, or being)" And by the way, you can't point to an Imaginary number, like for example i2 = −1 . Yet, without these concepts and tools (of course also all arisings/Gestalts so to say) pointing to these mathematical objects (that are not material, yet very well have a reality to them), nothing of our modern world in engineering and mathematics could have been created. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number You don't even need to write something like that, that is a performative contradiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction Because the statement itself (words/symbols) claims validity (else you would not write it), while saying every word is a symbol, have no meaning, trickery, "it is delusion". But doing it using words/symbols, which you claim are delusions anyway. Using that logic, you can justify everything. And the kind of stuff justified by this logic is normally mainly: But I already know that this won't stop the usage of this kind of flawed logic, but at least the reader can make his own picture about the things explained and justified by this kind of performative contradiction (probably resulting in something of the picture above). You can read that up for example at Wilber, and many other philosophers, for example Habermas, or Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction You are confusing relative truth (which can be very useful on a relative level, for example a diamond cuts glass, but not the other way round, true on a relative level. Or the concept of the Gestalt of a separate self) and absolute truth (everything is an illusion, and all words/pointers occur in Absolute Reality/Totality). Anticipating an answer with as many exclamation marks, capital letters and HAHAHHAHHAH as possible Yours truly & Bon voyage Water by the River

Lets take Ken Wilber take on that, on which I agree: The Ego as functional character handling daily life stays. The enlightened ones have strong egos, and left their mark on the world. They knew/know what they really are. Hard to shake that first-hand-knowledge of ones True Identity, so they are not easily scared away. The separate-self-arisings/Gestalt/structure: What goes in True Self Realization are the separate-self-arisings, or the exclusive identifying with the character ....even if the separate-self remaining is its only an empty witness-anything basking in Nonduality, but with some subtle Individuality (=separateness) still intact - The usual psychedelic hang-over separate-self-identity still haunting a not so selfless/empty mindstream). The separate self arisings as "identity" are then replaced by being Reality itself, CONTAINING a hopefully functional character/Ego. The separate self is dead after realizing ones True Deep Identity. Literally. If its not dead, its not Full Enlightenment. Why? True Identity=Nothingness, manfesting Reality/Totality and being its essence, nondual and infinite. But nothing specific you can point to. Perceptions perceiving themselves. The separate self arisings, including one of its main components/building blocks, NARCISSM/self-grandiosity, get killed/transcended/no longer believed/cut off/seen as fake illusion objects moving in oneself, and discarded on that Deep Identity Shift of Full Enlightenment.... ... Not the functional character (which some also call Ego). One doesn't get stupid and cuts that off, and remains a stumbling nutcase ever after.... Problem with the term Ego often is: Ego=functional character arisings PLUS separate self arisings. Because our society fuses these two Gestalt-structures as one, because it doesn't know any better and doesn't have much examples to the contrary. ... because the separate self arisings (and especially NARCISSM/self-grandiosity) are recognized as being actually one of the largest defense-block against the realization of ones True Identity, Nothingness/Reality. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Sorry, that wasn't clearly written from my side. That statement, and actually my whole post referred to AlexNonyamous6 statement/post (the parts quoted below). My post didn't mainly refer to your post. I just agreed with what you have written ("very true"). I think we agree that having some basic in normal relative in place can be helpful for the further path. One shouldn't wait starting the spiritual path until then, but maybe "saving the world" can wait a little bit until ones own life is balanced&healthy. The definition of suffering I use is "psychological suffering, OR resistance to what is", not for example bodily pain (and even with that, you can have bodily pain as raw sensation, flowing through you, with no psychological resistance added to it). And with that definition, if one constantly rests in ones True Nature, suffering can indeed be overcome. Because if one rests in One True Nature (Reality itself), its rather hard to have the "autoimmune disorder" of rejecting certain aspects of your own True Self, and creating duality while doing so. Ones True Nature is the source of all bliss and peace. The experiences that the separate self strives for temporarily relieve the suffering that the separates self arising-structures cause/consist of on a regularly basis. At least my experience. But the fulfillment of these experiences doesn't create the bliss, but cause temporarily the stopping/cutting off that the separate self does to that flow of bliss. That by the way becomes pretty clear when one can literally shut off the self-contraction in ones head, when the localization and contraction (sensations normally behind the eyes) there are lost. Before I learned to do that with meditation (by the way, mainly in daily life, off the pillow. But starting on the pillow for quite a while), I became aware how sometimes before fully waking up the contraction in the head is not there yet, and then while waking up from slumbering "kicks in", but I couldn't reverse it back then. Maybe you know that experience. After a lot of meditation that became possible. It feels like you can literally switch off the separate self when it kicks in with some kind of unpleasant contractions/localizations/sensations in the head (plus of course the usual I-thought blabla and some I-feelings, and other unpleasant emotions/suffering coming with it), and get the bliss flowing doing that cutting off/Trekchö-style. and it took me many years getting there, probably can't be done short term. Ken Wilber: States are free, stages are earned (with a lot of work/practice). At least in my case, didn't go too fast... Probably big ego-case needed to be chopped away slowly The statements above are in line with all spiritual traditions on Enlightenment which I am aware of. Ken Wilber once wrote that it can be made from peak experience to plateau to permanent. Once one achieves making certain states stable as a plateau, one gets an idea how it all can work shutting off the suffering with "on-board-devices", no longer being dependend on external experiences. Then, one continues practicing to make it from plateau to permanent. When it gets that bad, I believe it is possible to either stay in the source of bliss, or at least to overcome the shock much faster, depending how solid one is rooted in ones own True Being, the source of all bliss. There are cases like that. And when one knows the mechanism described above, it becomes pretty clear how that does and would work... To make it more specific: The flow of bliss "using on-board-devices" (efficient meditation opening the Endohuasca-System, something like this https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ ) can become so strong that one can stay open in the Infinite, to use your words. And that creates a dynamic between bliss -> opening up nondual-way to the infinite -> more bliss -> more opening up to the infinite and so on that can become so strong that it can stay even through even heavy blows of fate. >there will always be suffering as long as you are human Actually, I agree to that. But at the end, you are much more the whole Reality then just a human. A Deep Identity Shift. One actually is the Whole Thing... Then one has a human moving in True Oneself, one is no longer just a human anymore. And then, suffering can become a background voice, very remote, much more easy to switch off.... I know, words in a forum... But it would be inauthentic from me to not write about that, because it is my own experience. I can only invite and motivate people to go this path. There is too much written about that it is not possible, suffering will persist and so on and so on. It doesn't need to, really doesn't. It is a bit like the Gateless Gate: One can't see it before one gets access to certain meditative and nondual/non-localized states of meditation in daily life that get the bliss/Endohuasca-system flowing. And then, oh boy, it is truly a miracle. Again and again. best regards Selling Water by the River

Very True. And there is a nice and pretty fool-proof (literally ) indicator if one really rests in ones own True Being, is enlightened on a stable basis, or if the separate self arisings are still well and alive: If you still suffer regularly, you resist the present moment manifested in your True Being/Reality. To be more precise: The separate self arisings in the True You are the resisting/suffering. So there are still some elements not transcended, your deep identity is not Reality itself then, because you (separate self arisings) want to have the True You/Reality different than it appears in this moment when you suffer. In this forum exists a large tendency to talk this simple mechanism away, because it is the blind spot (and contradiction in itself) of not so enlightened separate selves/egos thinking they are God. And admitting this to be the case, it would stop the Ego/Separate Self from thinking it is God/Absolute and its preaching from "upon high" with a hilarious ego/narcissm-show of truly god-sized dimension, which apparently feels oh so nice for some and starting lecturing. But hey, the show seen here sometimes really reminds of prime time comedy... And as written above, the mechanism luckily literally is fool-proof. No one gets left behind in Maya . Sorry, pardon my french. My recommendation would be, since you mention psychosis and depression: Get your life in order (psychological health, financial security/education/job, familiy & friends & relationships, a harmonious life on the relative level), until depression, psychosis and conflict in general is gone in your life as much as possible, and a happy & healthy as can be life on a relative level is achieved. And combining that growing up on all levels, and waking up with some kind of meditation practice would be real serious and transforming spiritual practice, ending up if possible in a stable resting in your True Being itself. Then you can show up in the world. Ken Wilbers grow up, wake up, show up. Then live the bliss of your true being on a stable basis for 5 years or so. And then, start thinking about how you can help so called "others". Maybe recheck if there are "others" at all.... Because if you try to "help/change" "others" from a position halfway up the mountain, that project is just one of the endless projects of the separate self to make the world conform to its own ideas and visions, and to ease its own suffering. What the outcome of these good intentions can be sometimes, look around in the world.... exactly. Bon voyage! Water by the River