Bodhitree

Yes, everyone is on their own path, and while all paths lead up the mountain, some go no higher than the foothills. Many Christians are trapped in their own belief system, and it takes a certain insight for them to release themselves out of it. I came across a story about a Dutch priest and mystic called Hein Thijssen. He first became a monk and then a priest, and after twenty years of being a priest he realised God was not who he thought he was. He gave up his priest’s robe, became a teacher, and age 80 published a book called Empty and Free about how he achieved an inner awakening. It makes you wonder what is the point arguing with those who are not ready to listen. You have to approach people in a very particular way if you want them to change their core beliefs, it is a very gradual process.

Wanting things usually has to do with a seed experience, a moment in which you thought something would be really cool and would give you something if you had it. If you can revisit those experiences, re-examine them with a more mature mind, then you can see how pointless and lacking in importance they are, and you will find the desire dies.

Well, look at what happens in the world around us. A tree dies and falls over in the forest, the beetles come and start disassembling it. Is anything lost? No, everything is reused. I don’t see why it would be different with our body and mind. All will fall apart, the unity will be lost, but it will be used again or recycled in another way. It is only the enlightened who are like a dewdrop falling off a leaf into the ocean, dissolving on death into the universe.

Does the mind truly help towards awakening, or is all mind work merely a gate to more of the mind’s illusions?

Pursueing happiness is bound to lead to unhappiness. You become happy through living. Just simplify your life and your mind, and you will reach peace and happiness.

@WaveInTheOcean I must admit, I wonder how you are doing now? Having read the thread it feels to me as if a lot of the real work comes in the integration. To have a wonderful realisation last means that it’s consequences have to be supported by the impulses of the mind, otherwise the ego vision of the world will start to dig away at the mechanism of realisation, no? I recall reading that it took Eckhart Tolle two years of meditating on park benches before he felt ready to speak publicly.

There are a few there that I like, this one “what is freedom? It is freedom from the self” in particular. If you think about it, all desire comes from the self. But really to experience such freedom is a rarity, it comes from a realisation beyond just letting go. I sometimes find it when meditating while listening to Osho’s discourses.

@RedLine I think a problem that is this persistent is a clear sign that it’s an important issue to you subconsciously and energetically. You may find some blockages in your body energy, or something in your sleeping self which makes it walk the same unusual path. I would start with some meditations on the subject of death, just to get used to it without the existential baggage. Some years ago I was in India, and I had rented a little apartment which looked over the river. It was also right next to the burning ghats, the local place for cremating the dead. So for the weeks that I stayed there, every so often there would be little gatherings next door and there would be the smell and smoke of a burning body drifting over. You get used to it. Death there is very different from death here, it’s more normal, more accepted, more an every day part of life. I’ve never found it that useful to look annihilation in the face. The existential dread of ceasing-to-be holds few terrors once you start to recognise death as the dewdrop slipping off the lotus leaf to become one with the ocean. But that is an understanding that doesn’t arrive all at once, it is a series of relaxing out-breaths as you realise there is nothing to be afraid of. Things are exactly as they are supposed to be, and they couldn’t be any other way.

Well Papaji did say that self inquiry needs only be done once, and to then do it “properly” I also reached a point like this. I did a number of years of Buddhist meditation, and then I was reading an anthology of Buddhist sutras, and I had a long hard look at cessation and I couldn’t find myself in it anymore. I started reading Advaita and I also reverted to doing “just sitting”.

Thanks for introducing me to Robert Wolfe, he is pretty clear on what he has to say on nonduality. Although I think the experience he talks about is only the beginning of the enlightenment journey, it is a nice place of understanding from which to continue.

Well it is more like, these prophets got a hint of the truth, but whoever was writing it down got it only partially right, and that was then subverted by priests who were attempting to control and regulate the population. So the truth is not easy to find. I’d suggest taking the mainstream religions with a large crystal of salt, and instead focussing on the sayings and writings of people who have some real wisdom, the rebel guru’s. The more popular they are with politicians and the establishment, the less likely that they are the real deal.

The ‘banality of evil’ and the fact that most Nazi officers were just following rules as they saw them says a lot. I associate that pattern with a relatively low degree of awareness. As I understand enlightenment, it comes with the understanding that your path was unique, and with a well-rounded knowledge of your place in society and the power of your own voice. Those attributes mean that when you become enlightened, you will no longer want to be a Nazi. I’m not sure if Wilber understands that. My experience is that a fairly talented mind is necessary to make progress towards becoming enlightened, even if education isn’t necessary (and may be a hindrance). Beyond words, beyond the mind.

@Tim R I have heard of a case where a friend of a friend convinced a Tibetan Lama to take LSD, and was told that “these were the lesser lights”, and he explained that this was as close as one could come to the Bardo states without dying.

The winds of samsara. Circumstances in the world cause events, which give rise to perceptions in our senses. These perceptions trigger thoughts, which are then in their turn perceived, which can trigger further thoughts. Thus a single world event can cause us to experience a complex train of thought, which can depend intimately on our entire personal history.

How much ego do you need? Enough to not step under a bus. Generally selfishness causes conflict, and so it causes suffering in your immediate surroundings. Take it in moderation, be modest. It is a temporary thing, which recedes the further you get into spirituality. Eventually when you realise we are all one, you start looking at how to serve the all, and then selfishness becomes even less.

Well, if you’re only 22, then the core problem is this: finding a lifestyle which gets you a meaningful way of being engaged with the world and earning money, while allowing you to get enjoyment out of your work. It doesn’t mean that a corporate route is out of the question, some people are happy there and live a spiritual life besides. Spirituality is not something you are going to “solve”, it is a long process of maturing and gaining wisdom. And I wouldn’t take the whole thing of living humbly too literally either... money allows you to do things, travel, get involved in projects. Acquire skills, do things with your life, don’t get stuck at the minimum. Just be aware where you put your time and effort, and don’t allow circumstances to stick you into some time and energy sucking dark hole. Now is a good time to become a well-rounded person... take up an art or learn to play music, develop yourself, have some fun. There will be plenty of later years to be serious.

He seems interesting... with gurus it always pays to look carefully, watch the hands, not the face. I don’t think he is at the level of Osho, who had an extraordinary grace, but he might be something.

It is doubtful that these kind of visitations are helpful. What you are talking to is the light of the universe filtered through a portion of your own mind, it is you who give words and knowledge to these things. But at the same time you might be creating imprints and divisions within your being, all of which you will have to deal with at a later date if they have any reality at all.

Clinging to attachment is what causes unhappiness. Without clinging, attachment actually becomes something like conjunction, a being together without holding on. There can be happiness in that, and you will see that even enlightened people have relationships, which they are ready to let go at any time.

Ah beginners mind... just remind yourself there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

Try oshoworld.com for a site where you can download nearly all Osho’s complete lectures as MP3’s and books as pdfs.

I think people don’t question reality until they are a certain age. They will be too busy with life — earning a living, girlfriends, kids. Then usually a major life event comes along, divorce, serious illness, loss of a job, or all of them together, that makes you start looking at existential questions and what other people have thought about it. Where that leads them depends very much on circumstances. Some people get in touch with a shaman, others go on a massive fitness jag, or buy a Porsche. If they are lucky they might start in on Buddhism and a more spiritual path.

This thread very much reminds me of what I first thought when I heard Sadhguru speak on a YouTube video, that he was not the real deal as a guru. I have some experience with guru’s, I spent a lot of time in Osho’s presence back in the day, and there is a kind of quality to how they look and speak which bypasses your brains logic filters and tells you deep inside that here is something genuine — if you are really ready to relate to a guru and open to that. It is true, there are always people who have different opinions, in the media as well as on the net. Sometimes they write from prejudice, or they end up toeing the line that some editor back in Europe or the USA has set out for them. But people who can connect and then find that someone is not ready to be a guru but has just taken on the image should speak a word of warning to those who seem interested and might get taken in.