Preetom

One is pre-egoic state, another is post-egoic

How else could it work! Can you imagine a financial self help product selling which declares ''your end goal is not to chase money'' right off the bat? Can you imagine a real spiritual guru selling his products who declares ''you won't find happiness in this process but you'll lose all concepts of happiness and suffering along with everything else'' ?

@SoonHei I'm gonna answer from what I've understood so far. By Enlightenment I'm strictly talking about effortless, permanent non dual awareness. Every time I've peaked into that state, it's all so obvious and effortless. Just like right now I'm feeling like a located person, in that state I don't feel myself being located. No concept is possible to describe it because there is no concept in that place. Awareness can be a word to point to this state but honestly speaking, that word falls short as well. It's just death of all questions and knowing. Just being. Even that is not formulated. Now is it possible to make that state permanent? If it is, then I'd say it is worth more than 100 billion dollars. It's literally impossible to suffer from that state. My mind says it isn't possible to hold that state permanently but when I'm in it, it's all so obvious. So my point is, permanent Enlightenment is being non located awareness and 99.99% of the time not feeling like a located, trapped human being. I guess Leo hasn't reached this permanent place yet. It's nothing extraordinary. Just like right now you believe you're a human, you just drop that belief and an entire recontextualization happens in your attention, subjective reality and feelings. About practice: Enlightenment is an attention game. Really, there is no ego and enlightenment. It all boils down to the nature of your attention. There is nothing in your subjective reality other than your attention. Attention has 2 functions. 1) It's stickiness or direction or orientation 2) It's state (either still or fluctuating) duration You need to work on both. Practices like inquiry, contemplation, autolysis or any deconstructing practices are used to deconstruct all assumptions and beliefs. It is a thought killing all other bullshit thoughts. The stickiness of your attention is faded more and more, it ceases to identify with any object. From here, you start tapping into Enlightenment many times or on command, But you're work ain't done yet! You can't hold that dis-identified attention longer than few seconds. Now comes the concentration practices like meditation to keep attention on one place. Being aware of being aware. This is why Self inquiry as Ramana prescribed as a two step practice is considered the best and only complete practice needed for enlightenment. In the first step, you ask questions like 'who am I?' for deconstruction. In the second step, you're being aware of awareness which he called the I-I awareness. There is no rigid boundary between the steps. You use the questions to kill thoughts. When thoughts are gone you're being aware of being aware. Enlightenment is bound to happen if this is persistently kept up. At one point, all this talks will collapse and it's impossible to define what will happen. Really, there are many records of being Enlightened in less than 2 years in this process. There maybe lots of maturing and discovering to be done forever but the non located, non dual awareness is there. Whatever new spiritual truths(oh the mind loves hoarding MORE stuff huh?) are there, it will unfold on it's own from there. Hope it helps

Rigid rules and pre-fabricated notions don't really work as you go deep into life. Only Awareness or choice less observation becomes the key and any necessary course of action follows from there.

The talk starts from around 6 minutes mark.

@Misagh Thank you

@Emerald I wish I could express my situation so eloquently like you. But recently, almost every morning I wake up immediately from a dream. And almost everytime, I can't tell for sure if I've actually woken up. It all feels like the continuation of the same dream I was having but at a different place. There is a sick heavy feeling in the chest(but the dream was nothing scary) while I think for few minutes and finally decide that I've woken and that was a dream. Most of the time, I can't even remember the content of the dream. It's just that the distinction between dreams and waking state is getting eroded. Is this something normal?

@Misagh I witness and am constantly dumbfounded by the fact that I actually never do anything. Things are running. I can't even predict a thing. I can imagine that I'm the doer, I'm the controller but if I just look for few seconds silently...all gone. The recurring thoughts are like, '' I just can't accept that I'm absolutely nothing''. Did you go through such a period where you saw through the no self yet your reason and thought couldn't accept this direct experience and kept distracting itself with thoughts like, ''No I can't be nothing. I must be the mind, body etc''?

@aclokay This is the very definition of an upcoming breakthrough. The caterpillar becomes so dysfunctional before becoming a butterfly. The self becomes so dysfunctional and gets fragmented into multiple opposing pieces that it becomes impossible to take another step forward. Eventually it becomes a do or die situation. It can't get worse and worse forever. There is Death as your best friend to put a full stop on anything and everything. Tap into that primal truth and inquire into the self. The cosmetics of the self have become so dysfunctional that it's impossible to put more bandages on it. A breakthrough must come. Rigorous self inquiry is the way. Inquiry must be done on the self, not on the cosmetics of the self. This present self won't make this trial by fire. A spiritual rebirth is imminent, which is known as Spiritual Enlightenment. I wish I could say pretty, flowery things to you. But that rainbow colored, centerless jumble of banged up self won't survive this journey

This is what I'm coming across again and again if I stay silent for a minute or two these days. It's just so fucking unbelievable. The theory was one thing but when it really hits, its another ball game. I know this will not stop..until no one is there to come back and report it

If you've done any spiritual practice for a significant amount of time, get ready to be all emotional and nostalgic See through the veneer of religion. The desperation and devotion of the heart is always the same..

@Pouya You only stop resisting the day when you clearly see that there is nothing called resistance in Reality. It is impossible to resist Reality. You think you're resisting but that's your illusion. Who the hell has the audacity to resist THIS? You can only imagine resisting Reality. And you're intuiting it right that no doing will get you there. But there are networks of thought patterns, beliefs and identity structure that need to be deconstructed and it takes hell of doing to demolish all this. Then Enlightenment happens naturally. Instead of trying to stop resisting, inquire into who is it that is resisting or trying to stop resisting.

@Aaron p the dream would cease to exist along with the dream consciousness. But the Absolute nothingness, the very fabric of existence can never cease to exist. All ideas of existing and non existing happen within it.

Am I aware? Yes. Is that based on a particular activity or condition? No. This knowingness, it is so miraculous. It is the irreducible and most essential element present in everything, yet it is so elusive. I guess that is bright side of it. It means that it is possible to bring awareness into everything. Just because it is absolutely nothing, it can pervade and saturate the entirety of everything. Right now what am I? The more I look into it, the more my body feels non existent. If I'm honest, I can't find a strict distinct between the body and the world. The body is a perception. The entirety of perception is known. Do I honestly have anything to do with anything? Nothing feels authentic to be me. Why do I insist on being an object? Why can't I accept what I'm feeling in my direct experience now? This total dis identification of everything. I have no idea what I am or where I am. How can any idea or thing tell me that? I have nothing to do with things.

Am I aware? yes. What is it that I am aware of? The sound surrounding me. The feelings in the body. The shapes and colors of objects around me. But what is it that is aware? Can a monitor see itself? Can a sound hear itself? Obviously not. I I I I..where is it pointed towards when I say I? Some subtle feelings in the head and chest deep inside. But what is that is aware of these sensations? Can the sensation in the head feel itself? No that sounds silly. Is that what I really am? A sensation? My entire life revolves around these subtle ephemeral sensations? They were born in 1994 and now have an age, history, plans for future, desire and preferences? It sounds so ridiculous when I frame it like that. I'm obviously not these sensations. Then what am I? I am that which knows all these sensations. Is there a location where the source of this knowingness is located? No whatever direction is pointed towards is always more experience. What is direction? up down left right..are these directions absolute? No directions are always in relation to a presumed point or location. With respect to this knowingness, is there any direction like up down left right? Does this knowingness have any center? I can't find one. So does this mean that this Awareness is without location? Even it is not located, there is the sense that I undoubtedly exist. I'm present witnessing all these changes in phenomena. But does that knowingness itself undergo change? no all the changes are in phenomena. According to Vedanta, real or abosolute is defined by having three characteristics. whatever is real must be 1) eternal or ever present 2) unchanging 3) must stand on it's own right. That means it does not need another thing to exist. So what is it in my present experience that yields all three of these points? If something is real it must be ever present and so it must exist right now in my experience, whatever I may be experiencing? Okay what are the things on my experience that does not conform these points? All sounds. All sights. How about sensations? is there a particular sensation that is taking place eternally, unchanging and knowing itself. No that sounds silly. During sleep, there is no sensation. What remains in deep sleep? The sentience and thinking stops. But there really is no feeling of non-existence. So the absolute exists in deep sleep. What is it's nature?

@SoonHei many realized sages like Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa etc lived the last year's of their lives in terrible pain from cancer without medications. They never felt the need to medicate themselves as their old age was approaching. It's all a dream to them. Good or bad doesn't matter. And also they aren't focused on the dream that much as well. They are just grounded in absolute nothing or being, while everything is done automatically without their volition.

Thank you Now I can see why almost all hardcore spiritual traditions emphasize so much on things like disciplined life and concentrated mind with minimum junk. Even before starting the actual practices. I'm at a point where I can dis-identity from things. My attention is not so sticky anymore but I cannot stabilize it more than few seconds. I feel like if I could somehow sustain this no state state for several hours or days in an unbroken fashion, something would literally shatter from inside out.

''Anything perceivable or conceivable is not you'' Recently during self inquiry and writing, many times I've come to this point when it feels like I'm on this final step. There is no particular identification with anything. But it feels like something final is there that needs to be released. It's just the utter mindfuck and I just can't wrap my mind around how I can be really absolutely nothing. It's a still state. There is no palpable fear or strong emotions. It's like I just can't accept the fact that my destiny is absolutely nothing, that I never had a life, that I've always been and always will be nothing, that I've never been anything but that. It's all so glaringly obvious right in front of my nose, yet I just can't accept my destiny. It has become so common now that I can self inquire for few minutes and go straight to that place. All intentions stop. There is not even any intention left to let go. Would like to know how you guys reconciled this. I guess this is why it is told that Enlightenment can only happen by grace, not on my command. In this part of this video Leo gives this wonderful example and it literally feels like this everytime I come back to default mode of being.

Am I aware? Yes. Is this knowing of being dependent on any particular experience? No. They are known when I'm not identified with any particular experience. It's this relaxation of attention on all objective experience. No particular thought or experience is latched on to. Yet I do not cease to exist without an experience. In fact I am even more conscious of my existence in such a case. Can I knowingly be aware amidst all the changing phenomena? That is the name of the game. It gets a little easier along the way. There is nothing fantastic stuff to know. Just relaxing the focus and knowingly be aware. There is no dogging or probing involved. No figuring things out. A good place to be indeed for most parts.

That's the illusion of a separate entity abiding somewhere and doing stuff. There was and is no one alive in the first place. By death, it means the death of the illusion you currently have. Feel free to watch the entire video if it resonates with you.

Summary of own contemplation: I have never had something called ''a direct perception of Reality''. For my entire life, I've only experienced how my mind has interpreted Reality. But usually, the case is even worse. Usually it is the perception of perception of perception of Reality. That's how I've lived most of life. That's how virtually everyone lives. Here is how it goes: Reality--->My indirect perception or interpretations of it--->Projected by me and reflected by other people--->Living according to what other people think. Perception..of...perception..........................................................of perception................................................................of perception.................................................. Whatever input it is, it always has to come through that bastard yapping in the head..either consciously or unconsciously. The mind is the entire network of arbitrary and groundless concepts which operates through cues and language. Each element is groundless in itself but as a network the whole thing reflects a mirage of something called real meaning or truth. Think about it. Do you have multiple sources of knowledge? NO. It's only your own mind, through which this entirety of perception is interpreted. The source that says I'm a loser and the source that says I'm a winner; are they two different sources? No they are the same source. The only source of cognition. So what can you trust? Nothing. All knowledge is arbitrary. There is no such thing as objective knowledge. All are arbitrary contents in consciousness. The only thing you can verify for yourself is your own existence. Being aware of being aware. That's the only authentic, genuine knowledge that's possible to know by any being on any plane. Once you see this, fascination with contents that bind you lessons. You naturally skew towards the untainted witnessing position and discover your true home there all along.

"What is dead may never die'' I wonder if the Greyjoys really know what's being pointed here every time they shout it out

''Reality is not what it appears to be.'' Getting blown over by this fact over and over again recently. There is nothing objective about any appearance. A thing can only appear as something it is not. It can appear as literally anything, except for what it really is. Does that ring some bell? This is the very definition of Symbol. A symbol is anything but the thing it represents. I remember reading a book that said it nicely. We're living in a hallucination like the movie Matrix. But the difference is, there is no higher, ultimate, objective Reality waiting out there somewhere. Probably this is why Science's search for objective Truth will be a failed project even after a million years. If you're chasing for Santa Clause for a million years, how close will you get to finding him? When it really hits you, you slowly lose the fascination with objective experiences. Attention relaxes and drops into it's source. You feel the non objective experience of Being, which is all there is to your current experience. When you probe a little deeper...Gone as if never existed!

Yes if you're using language. The furthest language can describe the Absolute is through negations. But negations never say what it is. But direct being doesn't have to have that limitation.

Hello