kbone

I appreciate you taking the time to type out your essay. I plan to return to it once I have the time to properly mesh into it. Infinity, properly apprehended, would transcend any boundaries of beginning or end (two conceptual polar ends of a continuum). I dig your honesty and clarity. Until then, I wonder if you've explored the Buddhist concept of dependent origination along with the more well known ones of impermanence and no self? Twelve Links of Dependent Origination: This concept describes a chain of interconnected events that explain the cycle of suffering and rebirth, including ignorance, volitional formations, consciousness, name and form, sense bases, contact, feeling, craving, clinging, becoming, birth, and aging and death. Might be worth a contemplation as the structure of suffering that could then be meshed in with the essay's intent. Peacely, brotha.

New Age mind stuff is neither new, nor will it last an age. Hopefully it is slick enough to slip on, stumble, and drop it all, giving one a taste of infinite potentiality, but you won't be there if it is authentically apprehended.

@Princess Arabia Yup, I getcha. As I said before, I recognize a similarity in the way you are expressing the perspective. As such, I sense you have SEEN somenothing and are now in the process of cleaning house, putting the mind in its place.... Awareness/Consciousness is primary, mind is not. The mind is where the delusion, the sense of self, and self-deception arise. Freedom from that prison, authentic Peace, is the putting it all out front and not being drawn in by its shenanigans. It's quite common for the mind to try and get a foothold, and maybe claw its way back to prominence. In a poetic way, 'we're out here' in the mindsphere talking about what 'we' actually are, that simple Awareness in which the movements of Consciousness, like the mind and the world, appear. In the Plotinus model, you've transcended 'up', realized 'The One' (aka, the Void, Nothing, God, Awareness/Consciousness, whatever you wanna call it), and you now SEE all that is emanating within/as The One.... THIS, transrational simplicity and perfection. I don't know if that sounds like nonsense to you.... just sharing an expression that might mesh with your mind's. It's great you're having fun in this massive amusement park. It is purddy funny, in an amazing way, though the mind might still sense 'others' suffering as they identify with the self construct 'trapped' in the delusion/ignorance born of the self-deception. Peace, Sista.

Don't have time (or maybe even the patience, hehe, we'll see) to listen to even the whole first one, but enough to hear the first few misconceptions. If Jesus the person did exist around 2000 years ago, one will never actually know, much less whether or not he was god-realized. So, in essence, what does it matter? But yeah, I getcha, given what one gnossises, it may sound quite self-serving or dubious. In how this mind is informed, the story of Jesus is not so much about that historical figure or person, but more about YOU. Can you die psychologically before the body dies? The key to the story is the crucifixion, which basically is the surrender of the self into Wholeness. Because mind/ego want to exist as separate volitional entity, it is the honest, persistent inquiry that draws the mind and its illusory master kicking and screaming (i.e., suffering), closer and closer to its own psychological death. With grace, the death as a separate volitional entity brings about the 'rebirth' into Life as Wholeness..... THIS, right Here, right NOW. The previous master, aka self/mind, are seen for what they are: senses of existence, a shapeshifting mask to be worn in the various contexts of the drama of life playing out, and a tool to be used effectively in the world as it is appearing. I'll leave it at that for now. "Be still, and know that I Am God" ~ Psalm 46:10 (usually preached as a dualistic world view in which one must bow down to a skydaddy, which might be useful for a while, when the ego is full on delusional) "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I AM." ~Jesus in John 8:58 (preached in much the same way as above) "I and the Father are one" ~Jesus in John 10:30 (getting the hint yet?) wave/ocean --- a metaphor Movement (Consciousness) within Stillness (Awareness) --- as simplification that can be realized, not just 'believed' The mind as a movement within Mind. -----An idealist take The movement of Life is God's dream ----another metaphor Much of the wording in the Bible was eventually either unintentionally mischaracterized/misunderstood/mis-translated and/or intentionally distorted to flush Truth. After all, SELF Realization and/or TRUTH Realization are so rare, who is going to make a concerted effort to bring down a massive church empire? Many have tried, but there are many MANY more seekers and believers wielding all kinds of ignorance to water down and obfuscate the simplicity. Taking a look at the first 2-300 years of Christianity might reveal a whole story of how the Bible/Church came to be (empire needs a belief to rally around, and to possibly control the masses after a long, intense period of upheaval), or even the practices that were prevalent at the time (hint: there was likely a lot of drugs being used by many of 'religious practitioners' of the time --> a la Eleusinian Mysteries, Bes Cult, Bronze Age cults of Dionysus, etc). It was a wild world around the Mediterranean, into the Levant, and even out in the lands of the Persians, Buddhists, Hindus, and Taoists.... Silk Road. Fact is, even the greatest Biblical scholars can't find a whole lot of common ground, so the historicity tends to have some devils in the details, to be sure. It is interesting, though. Bart Ehrman comes to mind. And here we are, still hanging out in the named 21st Century, carrying on the same discussions on the internet, the new and improved Silk Road. Far out. Some are still waiting for their chosen saviour. Some others are piddling with psychedelics to meet god 'him/herself', maybe get some cool insight, or perhaps think they are tapping into 'more Consciousness', and all the rest. Yet others, having gotten a glimpse, believe they are the chosen one to deliver humankind to god's greener pasture for the chosen few who have chosen to believe the new self-ordained priest. While far fewer others will settle for nothing but Truth itself (I know, the word gets bandied around a lot, as in my truth, more truth, other truths, etc etc ... no problem, but I only use it for somenothing specific). Gotta go.

In how I'd express it, states are always dual, as in states of mind. The concepts of the bifurcating mind are always dual, expressed as continuums of polarities (like negative and positive), and thus relative. For example, remember what you used to consider 'negative' as a child, and how almost naive that sounds to you today, because the mind is also conscious of (hopefully) how that is a developmental aspect of the individuated world view/perspective. Eventually, if one is radically honest and willing to look, it can be noticed that the mind is always just a tool that is used to think about and to interact within the world of cause-effect, and possibly tinker toward life's probabilities and the purposes of the illusive/mirage-like self. Negative thoughts and feelings arise, happen, and fall away... more immediately when not identified with and/or held on to via the dramas of grudges and revenge and/or intrapersonal/self-referential narratives self-loathing, abandonment, and unworthiness. Interpretations are always an effect of the mind's conditioning, which can be refined and even informed by the greater Whole. Wondrous, indeed. Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, There is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, The world is too full to talk about. Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other' Doesn't make any sense. ~ Rumi

Japan was the first country I lived in full time after leaving the States back in the early 90s. Luckily, I chose Kyoto as my home for three years, living in various parts of the city. At first, the general modern life of Japan was full of the cultural fascination always experienced in the honeymoon stage. Most every night I rode my bike through Gion, where so much of the past mingled with the modern forms of life and drama. After some of the negative effects of culture shock eventually wore off, I began to peer a bit more behind the curtain and was deeply humbled by its depth and the types of silence that its philosophical and/or Zen roots pointed to and/or evoked. The young cacophonous mind was challenged, intrigued, and almost fearful of not knowing to 'what' it was all pointing to. For example, there's a MASSIVE qualitative distinction between the word, the mental understanding of, the intuitive glimpse of, the acausal Realization of the Void, the Nothing. It was only after a few satoris that the mind began to come to terms with it's own limitations and what it might have to let go of... perfectly so. And even then, it wasn't until much later, whilst living in solitude in the mountains for months on end, that the mind was informed of what was meant by abiding in/as non-dual Awareness, always ... right HERE, right NOW.

Yes, the experience with otherness, and the willingness to engage it and contemplate it, putting one's perspective in its shoes are key. I was picking up on the nuances you were referring to and reflecting on my own little models that I had either learned, taught, or spontaneously reformulated in dealing with such complexity in real time. The goal was not to pigeonhole a culture, or label as this or that, but to understand enough in order to relate to and/or navigate within the intercultural contexts within which I was engaging. It's safe to say that in consistently doing so, the emergent awareness of how the construct of self is heavily influenced by such cultural 'boundaries' became more and more apparent. If interested in taking a look, I also used Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions research as a groundwork for creating a university-level intercultural communications course within a second language, teacher training program. From what you've shared, you probably already know of it. Anyway, the overall goal was to develop the teacher trainees' academic language skills while also developing their theoretical framework for second language teaching/acquisition. Within that matrix of courses, we sought to develop their understanding of how culture affects both the decoding and coding of language in interactive contexts as the "Fifth Skill" (other than reading, writing, listening, speaking). That is, with say English as an international language, how do different thinkers/feelers use the language to express or understand others. Anyway, after the curriculum explored the core parameters of culture , we then developed their understanding of a small mix of the cultural dimensions models. After a few months of all that, as a penultimate project for the course, I had the students conduct group interviews of foreigners living in South Korea. They had to write and ask questions that elicited the respondents' own unconscious dimensions (i.e., they couldn't use the wording of the dimensions themselves), and then to use their own knowledge of the dimensions to identify where the respondent was on the continuums in the various dimensions. They then had to help each other analyze the recorded interviews before individually writing a full fledged academic essay on their findings. Purddy coolio to see their eyes brighten as more interculturally aware (i.e., less ethnocentric/more ethnorelative --> a course objective) speakers of a second language. With respect to the Muslim world, which is extremely varied in its own right (Sunni/Shia/Wahhab/Aga Khan/Sufi), there are some great case studies. I never made it into Iran, but the people I've met from their are extraordinary, and they often speak about their beloved country before, during, and after the Islamic Revolution, often delicately expressing the nuances of the pros and cons. Personally, I haven't gone deeply into the sects in any scholarly way, but noticed and took note of them based on what I knew through my reading and interpretation of interactions while living amongst and traveling here. But the comparisons and contrasts between the Muslim communities in Pakistan/India and say Uzbekistan and/or Indonesia or Malaysia were quite eye-opening and, of course, always in flux. Indeed, even the regional variation within Pakistan was quite revealing. Recently, what I find interesting is the similarity of the various forms of political extremism on the rise (and the potential hows/whys), whether it be far-right/left in liberal democracies, the Hindutva in India, the neo-conservative Islamic movements in various countries, etc in how it's almost like a market share phenomenon wherein the political parties are 'selling' their brand as righteous whilst denigrating otherness as evil. And then I wonder, has it ever been any different ...?

@Princess Arabia Great stuff. The absence in which it all appears... I might add, self-inquiry is where the mind's deceit is seen and the not-knowing is noticed, which could be considered the burning away of ignorance. When deceit is seen, honesty arises as insight; when not-knowing is fully seen, wisdom/Knowledge emerges and the potential for Realization increases. When all has been reduced to ashes, only Truth emerges, absent the prison of the previous construct of (some permanent/separate volitional) self. That said, one typically shows up in the world 'to others (who may not be Realized)' with a mask on... as the appearance of otherness to 'others'. As such, it might be said that self is illusory/impermanent/a mirage, while the inquiry simply happens. Purddy coolio. "To be in the world, but not necessarily of it" “Wisdom is knowing I am Nothing, Love is knowing I am Everything, and between the two my life moves.” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj

Yes, the 'not-knowing' is quite eye opening if one really begins to go into it. It's amazing how EXTREMELY little one actually knows. The very function of radical self-honesty promotes/involves turning the attention of Consciousness in on ITself rather than outward in its creative/seeking capacity. It seems that such a degree of self-honesty only comes about when a noticing of the mind's limitations and its deceptions emerges. Quite often, the first real noticing of the depth and breadth of it dishonesty can be quite jarring. It's often very difficult to do, simply due the 'stickiness of thoughts' and/or one's needs to engage the mind in order to navigate the world. Thoughts are not bad in themselves (they have a worldly function), but the way the unconscious/uninformed mind is structured leads to all sorts of self-deception and nonsense due to familial or cultural conditioning and unconscious self-referential biases. But I agree, the greater degree of self-honesty, the greater potential for well-being. There's more space (like a clearing the cache on a computer so it can function better) and there's less confusion and inner conflict. Most minds, at least at first, are not interested in that endeavor, understandably. It often sounds too simple, or don't like the feeling, or need more of a dopamine inducing practice. And then, when/if it gets a bit deeper, sometimes there's something akin to the 'dark night of the soul' that the mind repels from. As such, most peeps prefer to develop concepts, pursue woo woo, and build up their conceptual models that sound kinda truthy (i.e., perpetuating the self's need to sound 'right'/'super smart'/'important'/'more holy'/ etc), rather than strip it all down to TRUTH's blazing simplicity.

When I read @zazen 's posts, I did not get the sense that he was writing about either/or (East v West) as a 2 sets of monolithic ideals completely divorced/distinct from one another. Culture studies are complex, as cultures are made of people who have shared values and priorities, shared norms and behaviors rooted in however distant pasts, etc. Surely you can see the stated comparison/contrasts even within the people of almost every culture. For example, some peeps value or emphasize their own freedom over their harmony with others, their own visibility/expression over their discipline/mastery, etc. I do not know @zazen, but I sense the contemplative type, not an argumentative one your reply seems to be looking for. Might I ask where you're from or where you live? It just helps to be clearerer on the more dominant cultural paradigm from which you are speaking.

Very astute. You seem like one who is writing from experiences within both 'East and West' cultural paradigms, and has spent time discerning the nuances. Is that the case? Thank you for sharing,

That's thoughtful. So, in your understanding, what does "clearing the belief system" mean and/or entail and, if you were to give the mind writing the OP an example trajectory of what that might look like in 'practice', what might such a clearing look like (knowing it's just an example)? I think s/he understands they are human but, overwhelmed by the present circumstances and unmet expectations, perhaps unconscious of any 'wellspring of peace and wisdom'. It could be that the fruit of the mind is reaching its wits end, and is ripe for the plunge. S/he did not mention any peace or wisdom of their search thus far, just what was NOT found/realized. I'd be curious to read whether or not they had found any value thus far.

Comparing often happens when relating happens, but yeah, I getcha. Pure creating is purddy coolio. What's not a miracle....

Imma taking the fattest diary book of blank paper I can find for creativity and play... probably attempt to hide a deck of cards in between the many pages.

Very impressive. I'm glad you can speak to this context with such experience. You seem like a very sane person, and I'm happy you could transcend that aspect of life. Yes, such 'work' is quite destabilising to the mind and definitely not for everyone. The sense of this fact was what led me into the mountains. I was never properly diagnosed for anything, nor saw any specialists, but I had to let go of so much and simplify so much at the same time, it required the mind-body to just walk away and let nature take its course . I do not know what others 'should/have to do', but can only express the experience/story as it unfolded. The story you share here, in some ways, sounds even more difficult. Well done, mon.

I think you bring up some important points. Life will continue before and after Realization, so live it as consciously as possible. What I found often happens is, that the more consciously one lives, the more one is honest with themselves, the more the extraneous nonsense that we invite into and promote in our lives actually ends up falling away. For example, in the Plotinus model of transcendence and emanation, there are 'higher' realms of mind (i.e., Nous/Soul) that one can actually seek to bring clarity to the 'lower' realms (i.e., the world). Some people find the allure of the all-or-nothing goal of the penultimate (i.e., The One) as the only source for success, which is basically just the mind/world driving the bus on an escape mission from the present .... no one 'leaves' the present. To say otherwise is just delusion. That said, to let go of world in order to commune with what might be called Presence (higher realm) is a quality of being in the present that no one in the history of humanity has ever really denigrated or wished away. I do not really know @Yeah Yeah 's predicament, so I was only speaking to the Truth/God query. It may be that s/he just needs to relax more, simplify and prioritize aspects of life, and learn to SEE and/or let go of negative patterns (beliefs, behaviors, etc). Based on what was shared, the mind is in full command, and it's running the prison. More often than not, the psychological source of that kind of mental intensity is momma-poppa conditioning/issues. They can be big pillars of self, full of unconscious emotional baggage that the intellect tries to overcome, deny, or bury. Doing so is typically not 'transcending', but sandbagging.

Pointing to god is simply pointing to Truth. But notice this; most appearances do not actually seem to want Truth. The mind is such an appearance. Most minds prefer to remain unconscious, in the dark. They will even put the cart before the donkey (via its logic) and say you don't need Realization to gnossis 'god', and just accept that all is god. Or, that if you just take so or so mind-altering drug, you will Realize Truth (just notice how the mind, with its latest woo woo experiences, retakes control after the effects wear off). For some, just holding to that belief is enough and they then go on to pursue a nicer dream. To work toward the nicer dream, they seek an improved self which they hope will be provided (by some imagined higher entity - like a skydaddy god) with more goodies and none of the pain. NOTE: I have nothing against woo woo experiences or self-improvement; it's just that we're now talking about Truth. I sense that @Yeah Yeah is not convinced that this mere acceptance is 'enough'. S/he is also very self-honest and expressed the predicament at hand very well. I appreciated that, because it spells out what suffering is; it's all psychological. S/he considers the potential for Realization to be within reach, but the mind is flummoxed by what it can do or what it sees as something missing, that they are missing. S/he's been using the mind to solve the riddles and koans of life, but the mind is not satisfied with such utterances, pointers, or platitudes. The mind has not relinquished control, but perhaps it is seeing its own demise as the master. To this mind, that suggests that s/he is aware of somenothing that is calling the attention to ITSELF that is prior to the mind. Ironically (and experientially), the mind typically must be dragged to its surrender kicking and screaming. That is why I point to the futility in mind 'figuring it out', even though, apparently, it must try. It's messy stuff, to be sure. It's not an answer, not a fact, not a conclusion, nor even a god that will set one free. Only acausal Truth, which emerges in/as _______ , brings about such psychological death and the subsequent rebirth spoken of through the ages. The Realization is of what has always caste light on the mind, as the very source of and in which ALL emerges, even mind itself.

That's fair. Yes, take responsibility and re-direct the attention consciously. That was my intention also.

What in blazes is going on is a great question! You're asking a lot of other questions and assuming a lot of speerchal fluff that give the impression that you are using your mind to find what is already present prior to mind. But you don't want riddles, and I know there's no way to tell you. But, to be clear, you are in the tigers mouth, and while I don't really wish it upon anyone, in hindsight, it is fortuitous, annoying as fuggall, and part of the process. The futility is numbing and drains you of most everything you hold dear. Are you pretty hard headed? I was. I might say lots of things as pointers, but that's not what you want. You want more, which is the mind talking. I might give answers, but you've heard them all. Don't confuse knowledge with realization. I might give you some practice, but it may just fail and make you feel more hopeless. That's how futility works; it's the experience of being trapped in a loop. The mind is a closed system (a loop), full of riddles, deceit, trap doors, 'reasons', goals and ......hope..... all within the dream. Most everyone will use their mind over and over and over ad nauseum, even after getting a glimpse (the mind is a clever lil rascal). Perhaps, once exhausted, the sense of being hollowed out as a black hole is recognized, and the divine spark of acausal clarity is realized. You're not stuck in the dream. The attention to, identifying with, and getting lost in its ignorance is what's in the way. The dream is within what you're looking for.

@Princess Arabia Exactamente. The self is a movement as mental constructs of memory within Awareness/Stillness/Silence (ASS) that one is, so there's really no one to awaken. Such movements, thoughts, things, concepts come and go within/as THIS ASS which one already is. The search was always about attention being locked within the movements, seemingly moving linearly through space/time, unaware of THIS which always was/has been/forever will be (this too is just a mental 'conclusion' rippling as an expression). To search for and find what was actually never lost, always HERE/Present, is an odd dealio indeed to the mind, but not to THIS. Only the mind doth protest, but a mind informed by the realization tends to giggle at the trip that IT is.

All good.... but don't let the mind put it outta reach. You can do this... the walk into the unknown to awaken what's asleep, stealing fire from the gods.... THIS. PS: Annapurna Circuit

I'm glad you rezzed with it. That means there's a depth in your mind whispering, calling you deeper. If you have a bit of money, a quick jolt of nature and adventure might include a trip to Nepal. There they have 'teahouse treks', and all you have to do is show up with a backpack, minimal gear, get a permit and hike into these AMAZING mountains. You do NOT need a guide, a tent, or anything.... just the basics. There are seasonal times to do it, but I can guarantee that if you follow through with a 2-3 week trek around the Annapurna Circuit, (pictures from dry season) you will be both humbled by the awe you experience and the people you meet AND be lit on fire for the potentials that life has to offer. There are shorter treks too, but fuggit, go bold, I say. Some prefer the Everest Base Camp trek, but it used to need a tent for about 5-6 days.... not sure now. I'd even suggest taking a semester off if you are not able to really even do school work effectively. I can help you prepare for such a trip if it sparks your interest. The most expensive thing is the airfare. I did this same trek back in '94 after working in Japan, paying off my university debts, and it was a game-changer for me. The mental space of my 20s needed a jolt, and FFS, this kind of experience got the juices flowing. Ended up in the Himalayas for 7-8 years on and off, learning the ways of the mountains, the people, the mind, the SPACE.... then LOVE emerged from/as the depths spilling forth.... GORGEOUS, SHE IS

I'd agree with most of that. I just don't know him well enough. My suggestion was based on his later desire to know of a 'better alternative'. A lot of modern life is based on this integrated, technological thingamabob we got going here. Time in nature is an excellent cure, especially places that are way waaaaaayyy waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy outta cell phone range, hehe. 🏔️🌄

In this day and age, doing without a cell phone might be more trouble than it's worth, not to mention that he'll just end up buying another one. Does anyone actually NEED one? Probably not. I treat phones in much the same way I use mind which, as I've said, works better as a tool than as a master. If one's addicted to thinking or phones, then becoming more conscious of how they are used is key. Purddy hard to do when one's whole world is unconsciously centered around it. So yeah, I getcha, sometimes getting extreme does arise as the thing to do. Depends....

That's fair, but the context is that @Someone here was asking for advice in a 'self-improvement' thread, and @Hojo noticed that he spends 50% of his time (his 'free time') on a cell phone while the rest of his OP spoke of anxiety, therapy, existential angst, and/or addictions. As such, I think it was just meant as self-help advice, not the kind of realization you tend to point to. That said, I have observed how unconsciously attached many appear to be to their devices and their activities with them, and it is an interesting phenomenon.