kbone

Excellent. That is a simplicity that is priceless. Good on ya.

It seems these questions may indicate we are talking past one another and/or not understanding each other's intent. I'll let it go.

Right, perhaps faith is qualitatively distinct from simple belief. Faith is an aspect of the willingness to look; whereas, self-honesty is an aspect of the willingness to let go of beliefs when they are seen as unnecessary. For the sake of clarity, I always found it a good idea to distinguish between 'experience' and 'realization'. Experience is something requiring an experiencer, which is basically the assumed separate volitional person (SVP) that is doing the searching for and/or the merging with the Atman (call it what you will). Interestingly, it is the belief in that SVP that is at question if one takes up the seeking admonished by traditional Advaita, so there's that. So, the Self-Realization expressed in Advaita Vedanta could be expressed as the Hindu version of the merging of Jivatman with Atman, Buddhism's no Absolute self, Jesus's realization that "I and the Father are One", Pure Awareness, and perhaps Taoisms alignment with the Tao itself (that they express 'the Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao' is the clue). So seeking is experienced, but the Realization of Atman/God/Awareness/Self/___ is distinct, as it levels all such previous beliefs and notions about reality in a radically different perspective that defies even language itself. It is my suggestion that such a Realization is not born of the mind, but is transcendent of it and/or prior to it (i.e., once ___ is realized and stabilized in/as). Furthermore, at least in how I sometimes try to express it, the Realization was more like an Awareness of/as an absence of thingness, a vastness that was never left,,, but it was the mind's ignorance that clouded its oneness with ever-Present Truth. There was never any other to seek, just the removal of the ignorance of Truth. That ignorance is born of the mind, the very tool used to negotiate and navigate the wondrous world as it appears. But, it also houses all sorts of distorted beliefs about the nature of existence that leave the mind wanting, because deep down somewhere in its chaos, it knows that it is ignoring its oneness with Source. It may even be what the Garden of Eden story is actually all about. It does take a deep willingness/devotion (Bakhti) to cut through the mind's shenanigans and potentially get a glimpse of what Hindu's refer to as Supreme Knowledge/Gnosis (Jnana), but what is Realized is not some'thing' you can learn, and it is unexplainable. But all such seeking and existential questioning can come to an end, as one is quite aware of/as the vastness and purity of Awareness at the very core of one's being and in which all of Existence arises (the words are failing, but that's OK). Once seen, it cannot be unseen. The bell cannot be unrung. The certainty is oddly unassailable. I cannot say whether one needs such disciplines, but I would say that they are likely more like potential precursors or tools used to prepare the mind, perhaps make it prone to Realization itself. That's why I asked the question about grace in my original question to @Nemra. Gotta go. Will check back later.

1- I don't throw the word Truth around as such, but I am also not sure what you mean here. 2- I didn't say they were. But yes, the menu is not the meal. 3- I agree that beliefs are assumptions, perhaps questioned to some extent, perhaps not. They are usually about cause and effect, which is why I asked the original question. 4- This last question is more to the point I was attempting to get to originally. To be clear, I only use capital 'T' Truth with respect to existential questions that at least somewhat involve a search for God/Allah/Source/Awareness, so in a way I am mostly agreeing with you here. But, what I mention in my other post to @Jodistrict is that yes, perhaps there's likely a belief in mind present to even begin the search for the believed outcome, but what is Realized is incomprehensible by the mind, so much so that it defies the consensual trance cause-and-effect paradigm. As the mind struggles to come to terms with it (and often think it has 'lost' it once the bliss bunny stuff has played out), it continues to burn through previously held notions of 'reality', whatever those were. But it's not really until after the Realization that the whole burning up of beliefs is understood for what it is. As such, even the principles of cause and effect reasoning are relegated to worldly events, not transcendental ones... especially Truth/Self Realization. That is a whole other dealio.

I wonder what the context was in which Vivekananda said this. In many schools of Hindu thought, the general goal is to merge the Jivatman (individual soul/embodied self) with the Atman (Supreme Soul/Self). As such, if one doesn't at least believe in the potential for such transformation, they likely would not even begin the search. The mind is quite aware of what it feels like to live as an embodied self, though it is not really sure what that means or how to think otherwise. The mind knows nothing about what they are seeking or what the Supreme Self even refers to, so it is something akin to a wild goose chase with a certain degree of faith (maybe that's a better word for the quote, as it's strongerish than 'belief'). What they often don't talk about is the amazing transformative power of futility, which involves the seeing through and letting go of beliefs. The big one often attributed to Realization is usually quite a doozy, and it levels a lot of preconceived notions of 'knowledge' itself, which is why in many langauges there is a distinction between two types of knoweldge (e.g., episteme versus gnosis in Greek, or saber versus conocer in Spanish). However, if the Realization of Self does occur, what typically happens is that the story of how/what happened is more often than not ascribed to the culturally defined notions of cause and effect, such as the Jivatman merging with the Atman, which many in India are openly willing to accept if there's sufficient 'evidence'. That's not as easy in cultures based on a monotheistic order in which such a proclamation might be met with pitchforks, stonings, crucifixions, burnings at the steak, bannings, or institutionalization, hehe.

Would you say that Truth/Self-Realization is acausal and/or requires something like grace (for want of a better word)? I agree with the idea that there isn't recognition of Truth in beliefs, though even a word, or a sound, or any out-of-the-blue kind of dealio can be present as a memory of 'the event'. But I would not say such a word/sound/dealio caused the Realization.

What country do you live in, if you don't mind my asking? No problem if you prefer not to divulge. Just curious about the kinds of risks you are alluding to. No one 'needs' to drink alcohol, though I'm hardly one to say one should/shouldn't try. You're a big boy. Scientifically, 1-2 drinks has been shown to lower one's affective filter, but if one relies on it for such measures and/or thinks more is merrier, it will likely cause more problems than it's worth. Know when to say when, but most alcoholics don't when that is, hehe. Plus, I wonder about the alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) along with aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH) that are sometimes lacking in the DNA in certain areas of Asia, which affect the body's ability to metabolize alcohol.

In the exact same context, or in different ones? But yes, you've expressed the distinction of two types of honesty well. In your opinion, which is likely more important in the context of existential questioning or self-inquiry?

1- Yeah, going back and taking a look to see what stands up to Truth (or what survived the blast) is likely and healthy. What's realized doesn't make sense to the previous, consensus trance paradigm. Agree completely about the suffering. That's why I sometimes bang on about mind a lot of the time, hehe; people have heard and/or get it conceptually, but often express stuff that is direct conflict with what they say they understand, hehe. The expression you share seems more authentic as there's a consistency to it, which is what drew my curiosity. 2- Right, all language is dualistic and typically refers to the relative world, but that's all we got for communication on a forum! So, words like 'within', consciousness, levels, freedom or even truth can never express or point to it directly. Thus the poetic license was asked for. All appearances are 'out front', and almost all seeking of Truth tends to involve mind, which immediately steps in the 'wrong' direction. Yes, it's all lila, all play, and all of the same ____, but until the concepts used in communication are actually penetrated and realized, there's likely some more unconscious hide-n-seeking at play. Happy you're made it through and are clear of the mindfield! Enough carrying on and on. Enjoy your day.

I appreciate you taking the time to type out your essay. I plan to return to it once I have the time to properly mesh into it. Infinity, properly apprehended, would transcend any boundaries of beginning or end (two conceptual polar ends of a continuum). I dig your honesty and clarity. Until then, I wonder if you've explored the Buddhist concept of dependent origination along with the more well known ones of impermanence and no self? Twelve Links of Dependent Origination: This concept describes a chain of interconnected events that explain the cycle of suffering and rebirth, including ignorance, volitional formations, consciousness, name and form, sense bases, contact, feeling, craving, clinging, becoming, birth, and aging and death. Might be worth a contemplation as the structure of suffering that could then be meshed in with the essay's intent. Peacely, brotha.

New Age mind stuff is neither new, nor will it last an age. Hopefully it is slick enough to slip on, stumble, and drop it all, giving one a taste of infinite potentiality, but you won't be there if it is authentically apprehended.

@Princess Arabia Yup, I getcha. As I said before, I recognize a similarity in the way you are expressing the perspective. As such, I sense you have SEEN somenothing and are now in the process of cleaning house, putting the mind in its place.... Awareness/Consciousness is primary, mind is not. The mind is where the delusion, the sense of self, and self-deception arise. Freedom from that prison, authentic Peace, is the putting it all out front and not being drawn in by its shenanigans. It's quite common for the mind to try and get a foothold, and maybe claw its way back to prominence. In a poetic way, 'we're out here' in the mindsphere talking about what 'we' actually are, that simple Awareness in which the movements of Consciousness, like the mind and the world, appear. In the Plotinus model, you've transcended 'up', realized 'The One' (aka, the Void, Nothing, God, Awareness/Consciousness, whatever you wanna call it), and you now SEE all that is emanating within/as The One.... THIS, transrational simplicity and perfection. I don't know if that sounds like nonsense to you.... just sharing an expression that might mesh with your mind's. It's great you're having fun in this massive amusement park. It is purddy funny, in an amazing way, though the mind might still sense 'others' suffering as they identify with the self construct 'trapped' in the delusion/ignorance born of the self-deception. Peace, Sista.

Don't have time (or maybe even the patience, hehe, we'll see) to listen to even the whole first one, but enough to hear the first few misconceptions. If Jesus the person did exist around 2000 years ago, one will never actually know, much less whether or not he was god-realized. So, in essence, what does it matter? But yeah, I getcha, given what one gnossises, it may sound quite self-serving or dubious. In how this mind is informed, the story of Jesus is not so much about that historical figure or person, but more about YOU. Can you die psychologically before the body dies? The key to the story is the crucifixion, which basically is the surrender of the self into Wholeness. Because mind/ego want to exist as separate volitional entity, it is the honest, persistent inquiry that draws the mind and its illusory master kicking and screaming (i.e., suffering), closer and closer to its own psychological death. With grace, the death as a separate volitional entity brings about the 'rebirth' into Life as Wholeness..... THIS, right Here, right NOW. The previous master, aka self/mind, are seen for what they are: senses of existence, a shapeshifting mask to be worn in the various contexts of the drama of life playing out, and a tool to be used effectively in the world as it is appearing. I'll leave it at that for now. "Be still, and know that I Am God" ~ Psalm 46:10 (usually preached as a dualistic world view in which one must bow down to a skydaddy, which might be useful for a while, when the ego is full on delusional) "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I AM." ~Jesus in John 8:58 (preached in much the same way as above) "I and the Father are one" ~Jesus in John 10:30 (getting the hint yet?) wave/ocean --- a metaphor Movement (Consciousness) within Stillness (Awareness) --- as simplification that can be realized, not just 'believed' The mind as a movement within Mind. -----An idealist take The movement of Life is God's dream ----another metaphor Much of the wording in the Bible was eventually either unintentionally mischaracterized/misunderstood/mis-translated and/or intentionally distorted to flush Truth. After all, SELF Realization and/or TRUTH Realization are so rare, who is going to make a concerted effort to bring down a massive church empire? Many have tried, but there are many MANY more seekers and believers wielding all kinds of ignorance to water down and obfuscate the simplicity. Taking a look at the first 2-300 years of Christianity might reveal a whole story of how the Bible/Church came to be (empire needs a belief to rally around, and to possibly control the masses after a long, intense period of upheaval), or even the practices that were prevalent at the time (hint: there was likely a lot of drugs being used by many of 'religious practitioners' of the time --> a la Eleusinian Mysteries, Bes Cult, Bronze Age cults of Dionysus, etc). It was a wild world around the Mediterranean, into the Levant, and even out in the lands of the Persians, Buddhists, Hindus, and Taoists.... Silk Road. Fact is, even the greatest Biblical scholars can't find a whole lot of common ground, so the historicity tends to have some devils in the details, to be sure. It is interesting, though. Bart Ehrman comes to mind. And here we are, still hanging out in the named 21st Century, carrying on the same discussions on the internet, the new and improved Silk Road. Far out. Some are still waiting for their chosen saviour. Some others are piddling with psychedelics to meet god 'him/herself', maybe get some cool insight, or perhaps think they are tapping into 'more Consciousness', and all the rest. Yet others, having gotten a glimpse, believe they are the chosen one to deliver humankind to god's greener pasture for the chosen few who have chosen to believe the new self-ordained priest. While far fewer others will settle for nothing but Truth itself (I know, the word gets bandied around a lot, as in my truth, more truth, other truths, etc etc ... no problem, but I only use it for somenothing specific). Gotta go.

In how I'd express it, states are always dual, as in states of mind. The concepts of the bifurcating mind are always dual, expressed as continuums of polarities (like negative and positive), and thus relative. For example, remember what you used to consider 'negative' as a child, and how almost naive that sounds to you today, because the mind is also conscious of (hopefully) how that is a developmental aspect of the individuated world view/perspective. Eventually, if one is radically honest and willing to look, it can be noticed that the mind is always just a tool that is used to think about and to interact within the world of cause-effect, and possibly tinker toward life's probabilities and the purposes of the illusive/mirage-like self. Negative thoughts and feelings arise, happen, and fall away... more immediately when not identified with and/or held on to via the dramas of grudges and revenge and/or intrapersonal/self-referential narratives self-loathing, abandonment, and unworthiness. Interpretations are always an effect of the mind's conditioning, which can be refined and even informed by the greater Whole. Wondrous, indeed. Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, There is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, The world is too full to talk about. Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other' Doesn't make any sense. ~ Rumi

Japan was the first country I lived in full time after leaving the States back in the early 90s. Luckily, I chose Kyoto as my home for three years, living in various parts of the city. At first, the general modern life of Japan was full of the cultural fascination always experienced in the honeymoon stage. Most every night I rode my bike through Gion, where so much of the past mingled with the modern forms of life and drama. After some of the negative effects of culture shock eventually wore off, I began to peer a bit more behind the curtain and was deeply humbled by its depth and the types of silence that its philosophical and/or Zen roots pointed to and/or evoked. The young cacophonous mind was challenged, intrigued, and almost fearful of not knowing to 'what' it was all pointing to. For example, there's a MASSIVE qualitative distinction between the word, the mental understanding of, the intuitive glimpse of, the acausal Realization of the Void, the Nothing. It was only after a few satoris that the mind began to come to terms with it's own limitations and what it might have to let go of... perfectly so. And even then, it wasn't until much later, whilst living in solitude in the mountains for months on end, that the mind was informed of what was meant by abiding in/as non-dual Awareness, always ... right HERE, right NOW.

Yes, the experience with otherness, and the willingness to engage it and contemplate it, putting one's perspective in its shoes are key. I was picking up on the nuances you were referring to and reflecting on my own little models that I had either learned, taught, or spontaneously reformulated in dealing with such complexity in real time. The goal was not to pigeonhole a culture, or label as this or that, but to understand enough in order to relate to and/or navigate within the intercultural contexts within which I was engaging. It's safe to say that in consistently doing so, the emergent awareness of how the construct of self is heavily influenced by such cultural 'boundaries' became more and more apparent. If interested in taking a look, I also used Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions research as a groundwork for creating a university-level intercultural communications course within a second language, teacher training program. From what you've shared, you probably already know of it. Anyway, the overall goal was to develop the teacher trainees' academic language skills while also developing their theoretical framework for second language teaching/acquisition. Within that matrix of courses, we sought to develop their understanding of how culture affects both the decoding and coding of language in interactive contexts as the "Fifth Skill" (other than reading, writing, listening, speaking). That is, with say English as an international language, how do different thinkers/feelers use the language to express or understand others. Anyway, after the curriculum explored the core parameters of culture , we then developed their understanding of a small mix of the cultural dimensions models. After a few months of all that, as a penultimate project for the course, I had the students conduct group interviews of foreigners living in South Korea. They had to write and ask questions that elicited the respondents' own unconscious dimensions (i.e., they couldn't use the wording of the dimensions themselves), and then to use their own knowledge of the dimensions to identify where the respondent was on the continuums in the various dimensions. They then had to help each other analyze the recorded interviews before individually writing a full fledged academic essay on their findings. Purddy coolio to see their eyes brighten as more interculturally aware (i.e., less ethnocentric/more ethnorelative --> a course objective) speakers of a second language. With respect to the Muslim world, which is extremely varied in its own right (Sunni/Shia/Wahhab/Aga Khan/Sufi), there are some great case studies. I never made it into Iran, but the people I've met from their are extraordinary, and they often speak about their beloved country before, during, and after the Islamic Revolution, often delicately expressing the nuances of the pros and cons. Personally, I haven't gone deeply into the sects in any scholarly way, but noticed and took note of them based on what I knew through my reading and interpretation of interactions while living amongst and traveling here. But the comparisons and contrasts between the Muslim communities in Pakistan/India and say Uzbekistan and/or Indonesia or Malaysia were quite eye-opening and, of course, always in flux. Indeed, even the regional variation within Pakistan was quite revealing. Recently, what I find interesting is the similarity of the various forms of political extremism on the rise (and the potential hows/whys), whether it be far-right/left in liberal democracies, the Hindutva in India, the neo-conservative Islamic movements in various countries, etc in how it's almost like a market share phenomenon wherein the political parties are 'selling' their brand as righteous whilst denigrating otherness as evil. And then I wonder, has it ever been any different ...?

@Princess Arabia Great stuff. The absence in which it all appears... I might add, self-inquiry is where the mind's deceit is seen and the not-knowing is noticed, which could be considered the burning away of ignorance. When deceit is seen, honesty arises as insight; when not-knowing is fully seen, wisdom/Knowledge emerges and the potential for Realization increases. When all has been reduced to ashes, only Truth emerges, absent the prison of the previous construct of (some permanent/separate volitional) self. That said, one typically shows up in the world 'to others (who may not be Realized)' with a mask on... as the appearance of otherness to 'others'. As such, it might be said that self is illusory/impermanent/a mirage, while the inquiry simply happens. Purddy coolio. "To be in the world, but not necessarily of it" “Wisdom is knowing I am Nothing, Love is knowing I am Everything, and between the two my life moves.” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj

Yes, the 'not-knowing' is quite eye opening if one really begins to go into it. It's amazing how EXTREMELY little one actually knows. The very function of radical self-honesty promotes/involves turning the attention of Consciousness in on ITself rather than outward in its creative/seeking capacity. It seems that such a degree of self-honesty only comes about when a noticing of the mind's limitations and its deceptions emerges. Quite often, the first real noticing of the depth and breadth of it dishonesty can be quite jarring. It's often very difficult to do, simply due the 'stickiness of thoughts' and/or one's needs to engage the mind in order to navigate the world. Thoughts are not bad in themselves (they have a worldly function), but the way the unconscious/uninformed mind is structured leads to all sorts of self-deception and nonsense due to familial or cultural conditioning and unconscious self-referential biases. But I agree, the greater degree of self-honesty, the greater potential for well-being. There's more space (like a clearing the cache on a computer so it can function better) and there's less confusion and inner conflict. Most minds, at least at first, are not interested in that endeavor, understandably. It often sounds too simple, or don't like the feeling, or need more of a dopamine inducing practice. And then, when/if it gets a bit deeper, sometimes there's something akin to the 'dark night of the soul' that the mind repels from. As such, most peeps prefer to develop concepts, pursue woo woo, and build up their conceptual models that sound kinda truthy (i.e., perpetuating the self's need to sound 'right'/'super smart'/'important'/'more holy'/ etc), rather than strip it all down to TRUTH's blazing simplicity.

When I read @zazen 's posts, I did not get the sense that he was writing about either/or (East v West) as a 2 sets of monolithic ideals completely divorced/distinct from one another. Culture studies are complex, as cultures are made of people who have shared values and priorities, shared norms and behaviors rooted in however distant pasts, etc. Surely you can see the stated comparison/contrasts even within the people of almost every culture. For example, some peeps value or emphasize their own freedom over their harmony with others, their own visibility/expression over their discipline/mastery, etc. I do not know @zazen, but I sense the contemplative type, not an argumentative one your reply seems to be looking for. Might I ask where you're from or where you live? It just helps to be clearerer on the more dominant cultural paradigm from which you are speaking.

Very astute. You seem like one who is writing from experiences within both 'East and West' cultural paradigms, and has spent time discerning the nuances. Is that the case? Thank you for sharing,

That's thoughtful. So, in your understanding, what does "clearing the belief system" mean and/or entail and, if you were to give the mind writing the OP an example trajectory of what that might look like in 'practice', what might such a clearing look like (knowing it's just an example)? I think s/he understands they are human but, overwhelmed by the present circumstances and unmet expectations, perhaps unconscious of any 'wellspring of peace and wisdom'. It could be that the fruit of the mind is reaching its wits end, and is ripe for the plunge. S/he did not mention any peace or wisdom of their search thus far, just what was NOT found/realized. I'd be curious to read whether or not they had found any value thus far.

Comparing often happens when relating happens, but yeah, I getcha. Pure creating is purddy coolio. What's not a miracle....

Imma taking the fattest diary book of blank paper I can find for creativity and play... probably attempt to hide a deck of cards in between the many pages.

Very impressive. I'm glad you can speak to this context with such experience. You seem like a very sane person, and I'm happy you could transcend that aspect of life. Yes, such 'work' is quite destabilising to the mind and definitely not for everyone. The sense of this fact was what led me into the mountains. I was never properly diagnosed for anything, nor saw any specialists, but I had to let go of so much and simplify so much at the same time, it required the mind-body to just walk away and let nature take its course . I do not know what others 'should/have to do', but can only express the experience/story as it unfolded. The story you share here, in some ways, sounds even more difficult. Well done, mon.

I think you bring up some important points. Life will continue before and after Realization, so live it as consciously as possible. What I found often happens is, that the more consciously one lives, the more one is honest with themselves, the more the extraneous nonsense that we invite into and promote in our lives actually ends up falling away. For example, in the Plotinus model of transcendence and emanation, there are 'higher' realms of mind (i.e., Nous/Soul) that one can actually seek to bring clarity to the 'lower' realms (i.e., the world). Some people find the allure of the all-or-nothing goal of the penultimate (i.e., The One) as the only source for success, which is basically just the mind/world driving the bus on an escape mission from the present .... no one 'leaves' the present. To say otherwise is just delusion. That said, to let go of world in order to commune with what might be called Presence (higher realm) is a quality of being in the present that no one in the history of humanity has ever really denigrated or wished away. I do not really know @Yeah Yeah 's predicament, so I was only speaking to the Truth/God query. It may be that s/he just needs to relax more, simplify and prioritize aspects of life, and learn to SEE and/or let go of negative patterns (beliefs, behaviors, etc). Based on what was shared, the mind is in full command, and it's running the prison. More often than not, the psychological source of that kind of mental intensity is momma-poppa conditioning/issues. They can be big pillars of self, full of unconscious emotional baggage that the intellect tries to overcome, deny, or bury. Doing so is typically not 'transcending', but sandbagging.