Natasha Tori Maru

Agree, there are some twisted people who want to provoke distress in others. Lost touch with truth, trying to feel something in any way they can to distract themselves.

@Schizophonia This is a really great concept to understand these dynamics and where the emotional loading comes into idea debates. I can see how it gets very twisted internally and how emotions come up in what would appear like a factual idea discussion. Humans, in the end, cannot help being attached to thinking. This is 'MY' idea/concept/map. Most of the time in my own process, I have a thought or idea, and a lot less attachment to it than the typical layperson. I don't (or I try not to) attach myself to it. It does happen nevertheless. It's why when I engage in debates, especially on the forum, I am prepared to be triggered/humiliated, as it is during the discussion process I discover an emotional reaction which reveals a new attachment I was not aware of. So discussion on this platform acts to supplement my own growth and self discovery. The same mechanism is at work through every type of social interaction. It is most at play in my work environment. And I am well versed in humiliation and intellectual defeat at work, so I am somewhat hardened to the feeling and it no longer feels negative. So at the end of each day, I spend an hour or two contemplating how I reacted and to what. Where the reaction came from, and where I was attaching and deriving a sense of self to my actions and thoughts. I just do this while I walk home, walk the dog and engage in winddown routines readying for the next day. I actually welcome the feeling of humiliation. There is something there to learn This is also the reason I stress acting out in reality and engaging in the physical world to supplement the spiritual process. Reality is the reflection of the inside, and when something large shifts internally you see it play out in the real world. Sitting in non-engagement removes feedback. Most of the time though, my frustration and humiliation arises from my inability to express and communicate in a way the other person can understand.

Usually it is not suicide wanted - but the ending of this current experience. In the past it was that for me - I didn't really want to die. Just end the current iteration. When I realized the above it made me not commit suicide.

That is a better way to phrase it, and more positive - my version was quite satirical to laugh at myself

@UnbornTao So we do not require language, just differentiated experience? This topic is dense so forgive me if I am being dense in response to your quite eloquent reply above. A lizard on a hot rock. Sun - stimulus. Rock's warmth = part of the context. Shadow of a hawk passing - threat context overrides the basking = New context. In the above, symbols point to the context, and meaning is through relation? I do suppose it depends on how loosely we define language..

Personally for me - it has been essential. It has been a core tenant of my entire life, and in fact, for a while my common saying was 'I am just great at failing, recovering, learning, and trying again. I have mastered failure!' I kept going with the reframe question 'What can I learn from this?' 'Where was the mistake?' and then 'How can I prevent it from happening again?' Always looking for what I can learn. Failure isn't a setback for me. It is necessary to keep engaging in reality to test my own growth and reflect on the existential lessons there. If I don't succeed in something I look at how I contributed to it. And in general - the only things I do not succeed with are problems I do not stick with long enough. Obviously this doesn't always apply IE health, severe limitation. But if it is a problem within most of my ability to influence - I engage in reframing perpetually. A warning though: The sunk cost fallacy can get you when you have invested a lot, so you continually have to analyse the entire situation and its progress. Humans naturally value what they invest in - gotta be careful with that. Sometimes you have to intelligently know when to drop something and know you may be overvaluing it due to time invested. That's where wisdom comes in. Just my experience so far

@Rishabh R I really like your growth mindset - what's measured makes progress. You are doing some great work and bouncing back here every so often - my respect

@Joshe Haha I WAS THINKING IN MY BOOT. Who said our individual consciousness is contained within or bodies? Language and context is limited

@Leo Gura Haha well, now you have - the blood and sweat of my soul spent on the construction site exchanged for the booklist Cheers

@Leo Gura True - poked nice holes in it, we are left with Swisse cheese I think I was using the term knowing too loosely - in my head I defined it as a step over just understanding. Habitual synapse wiring? So not enough to know something, but training the nervous system to trust it. From the prefrontal cortex (intellectual knowing in the thinking brain) -> Limbic system (primal control room of sensation) through repetition

I perceive this as a 'knowing'. A realization and integration - a truth you know. When it is not some shit you tell yourself. Not a belief. No fake it till you make it. When you know, you just do. You don't even think. I swing like this at work 😈

@Leo Gura >.> <.< TAKE MY MONEY

A craving to be witnessed and acknowledged for your unique set of qualities? It's about wanting love underneath?

I am unsure how this relates to what I commented. I meant to state 'if you only do things for return, you don't get to reach life's potential' You should do things for others with no assumptions or intentions behind any outcome.

I had a think on this - do you think there is confusion because we can be speaking about consciousness as a noun OR verb. And context is being lost without defining consciousness as a noun vs consciousness as a verb, when we speak? Resulting in confusion.

Nothing to know here - not knowing it all

Solipsism is just some idea that cannot be proven or disproven. It doesn't matter to me personally at all. It shouldn't for you either Do not let it change your behavior - however: Operating out of personal integrity IS an existential matter. Lies (mistreatment of others to get something you need) are existential, not moral. If you lie, cheat, steal, treat others poorly (all forms of lies, all forms of un-TRUTH to serve some self agenda) - it is going to have consequences. It causes a split between your experience of reality and your being. A crack. You pollute your experience, that is pure, with actions that are not true to you. Anxiety forms, regret, attacks of the conscience when you do not expect. You ruin your experience. And integrity lowers the structural soundness of everything - cement with a crack is weakened. Less effective. It cannot hold up to pressure without collapse. So, you are weakened as a person. Less effective. Shatter under pressure. Like the cracked cement. This happens to your consciousness - it is not a moral issue. It is existential. Just because we do not see the consequences - does not mean they do not exist. I suppose this apology is a form of absolution... But in the end, I will just send, ALL THE E-HUGS to you <3

These were Granny Smith - I like tart applies >.< I am a bit prickly haha I prefer leaves, textures and flaws When rendering that is!

It does go further - and I think this is what Breakingthewall has realized and integrated: In my experience with the truth non-dualists get the no-self thing slightly wrong - or I should say - it goes further. There IS a unique part to each human - a human, distinct consciousness. This consciousness is fundamental. It is awareness in the pure sense. Pure existence. There is a Breakthewall consciousness, a Natasha consciousness etc. This is where I understand Breakthewall has seen the unique parts of each human that she has realized and integrated (again I could be wrong - could JUST be how I read it). This is completely separate to the self. But the self influences this unique, distinct consciousness we all have. Thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, ideas, personal history, memory - all come after this - and this is where we experience the ego self, generated for survival. But this acts as an overlay onto the pure consciousness that we each are at the base. Which is just being, experience and awareness. This 'self' stops you experiencing reality in a pure sense. As an example: you walk down the street, and you are worried about work. You worry about being late and your boss being angry. But notice that this worry is stopping you from seeing the beauty of the light; the flowers coming in full bloom (spring!), the crunchy sound of your feet on the brambles, the cool, fresh air in your lungs. That beautiful experience is now totally absent from your experience because your ego self was busy engaged in the future. It wasn't focusing on the present. So the ego distracts you from realising these experiences - which are the pure experiences of a human. A human being. Literally being. Where these 2 topics get minced together if you think thought is fundamental. And I get it - trying to force thoughts to stop is impossible. Which is repression and force. But when you integrate the realization the self is an illusion, you realise the thoughts are like a bad habit. Its easy to think the same thoughts. It's easy to repeat patterns. It takes no effort. What takes effort is trying to change your thoughts. Become aware of them. Train your focus to reality - not worry about the future or past. Just like a bad habit of eating junk food. You can train yourself to discipline thought though focus. Mediation. What you eventually find is that thoughts begin to slow. They can slow so much they can stop. And then - BOOM - you are pure awareness. You notice all the beauty of life - you stop and smell the roses. But this requires a lot of practice. Dedication. In addition to the above - the no self thing - well. Can you point to a self? If you are pure consciousness - not the body - but awareness - where is this self? Is a thought a thing? It is self-generated. SELF generated. It comes from the self. So if thoughts stop - where does the self go? Survival creates this self. It is needed for survival. But it is not fundamental - your unique consciousness IS. Again, serious meditation will take you there. Self-enquiry. Serious questioning. Questioning EVERYTHING. Hum a song, sing a song in your mind. Every note. Every word. The bridge - the chorus. Recall it in full. When you do this - can you think at the same time? Try to think and recall this song in your minds ear. You cannot. All the notes occupy your mind. If thought is fundamental - when you sung that song in your mind - and you stopped thoughts... did you (the self) just stop? Or is it something you create - just like the song? There is the illusion and the paradox. You certainly didn't stop! Or suddenly cease to exist. But you could still sense - you were still aware. But the self (the thinking, ego self) was temporarily gone. The illusion revealed. Once contemplation and integration happen - you reach knowing. Truth. Once you are in a state of knowing - you simply do. Because you know. Know the nature of thyself.

@Mellowmarsh I think the core of @Breakingthewall's premise is that repression or trying to shut down thoughts to stop emotions doesn't work. This is inhuman. And using force like this can be viewed as such. However, using force to do this doesn't work. Where the big issue comes is where no-self comes in - if not fully understood and integrated the natural conclusion is that no-self is anti human. This results from believing no self means repressing emotion and thought. But this is not what no-self is. No denial of feeling or emotion is part of it. So the premise is correct. It's just that the 'self' being an illusion leads to false assumptions when not integrated. I think this highlights how dangerous some knowledge can be when not integrated. That is my understanding anyway - I could be wrong.

Honestly, I have spent a lot of time meditating in my life. And my methods were dogshit >.< Real trash. In the last year I changed my practice up. I had to change what I was doing to make real progress and see real results. I don't mean to imply any time is wasted, only that sometimes 'time' isn't a good measure of investment. I did learn a lot through failing at meditation and contemplation - so for me it wasn't a waste. You are very intelligent - it shows. If you felt any emotion from my posts - it is all frustration that comes from me, as a result of a failure to properly guide and communicate in text. It is not meant to be directional. And I apologize if it was received as so. I know I am a bit fierce through text. I know that we all have the power within us to break out of internal patterns that hold us back. All emotion and feeling is always valid. It takes a lot of work to deconstruct where it comes from. It, to me, is some of the hardest spiritual work you can do. Even though there was a lot of disagreement here - I did really enjoy the exchange!! <3

💀 I felt you explained exactly why...

How can you be sure of what will be returned? You might forgo assisting another because you do not perceive a return in value - but this actually castrates you from the full potential of experience. Something may be returned you could NEVER expect - and end up valuing more than you realise. The best parts of my experience have resulted in an unexpected return on investment 😁

Very interesting - the topic of language and how it influences context. In terms of transmission information you guys might like this part of a remote viewing (nonverbal information transmission) interview (top CIA remote viewer). Go straight to 39:46 - he speaks about how communication happens without language + it's interpretation: https://youtu.be/JpLThEF2dTM?si=dGnP1Se42mFD3788 Long and short of it is - interpretation and context is an issue. It both sabotages the result and a second person is needed to remove the potential context the remote viewer brings to the process.

@Schizophonia is on the mark, the mirror effect is what I see here also. Enjoy their perspective on these threads as it always comes into play 'mirror effect'